future of shifting for T56?
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
Liberty performs the "faceplating" procedure on stock gears by removing the synchros and replacing them with "dog rings."
Other companies (PPG, G-Force) offer custom gears, input and main shafts that already have dog-rings on them. This is the expensive option but can handle a lot more power.
Andrew
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Norn Iron
You can call them the same, but physically they are different styles, as is their proshift.
Overall operation will be fairly similar though.
And as long as the welding process for the faceplating etc is robust, then they OEM T56 gears are well proven for their strength.
Value for money they are hard to beat.
I only got mine done late last year, so only have limited mileage on them. I'll be pissed if it breaks though !
Overall operation will be fairly similar though.
And as long as the welding process for the faceplating etc is robust, then they OEM T56 gears are well proven for their strength.
Value for money they are hard to beat.
I only got mine done late last year, so only have limited mileage on them. I'll be pissed if it breaks though !
You can call them the same, but physically they are different styles, as is their proshift.
Overall operation will be fairly similar though.
And as long as the welding process for the faceplating etc is robust, then they OEM T56 gears are well proven for their strength.
Value for money they are hard to beat.
I only got mine done late last year, so only have limited mileage on them. I'll be pissed if it breaks though !
Overall operation will be fairly similar though.
And as long as the welding process for the faceplating etc is robust, then they OEM T56 gears are well proven for their strength.
Value for money they are hard to beat.
I only got mine done late last year, so only have limited mileage on them. I'll be pissed if it breaks though !
Here is a Liberty faceplated TKO 600:
Look at the "dogs" on the gears and sliders.
Now look at the PPG parts:
Same exact design...
Here is a Richmond 6 sod that was done by Liberty:
The picture above is great because you can see 5th and 6th gears on the right that still use synchronizers, so you can see the difference.
You are conflating design, with cost, with value. The difference in cost comes from the amount of custom parts needed. The Liberty mod uses stock gears, while the PPG gear set includes a bunch of gears, shafts, etc...hence the higher price and higher torque rating. I am not knocking the Liberty set-up at all. I had one of their dog-ring T56s in 2006...
Andrew
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From: Norn Iron
I know exactly what the differences are, and the designs are clear to see.
But cost matters, especially when T56 gear strength is already well proven.
It just makes aftermarket gears hard tjustify.
Take g force....they're expensive too and have their fair share of failures...you'd need to be damn sure any other setx were strong.
But cost matters, especially when T56 gear strength is already well proven.
It just makes aftermarket gears hard tjustify.
Take g force....they're expensive too and have their fair share of failures...you'd need to be damn sure any other setx were strong.
12 Second Club
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Bucks County, Pa.
Just to clarify. Even the Holinger, Emco, PPG, or any other dog-ring transmission must somehow unload the input shaft before making a shift up or down. The design of the dog-rings is such that under load, the dogs are locked together and if you try to shift under power, you will destroy the transmission in short order, no matter who makes it.
Yes, even the strongest and most costly multi-million buck sequentials on the planet (in F1) MUST cut power to shift and survive (hence that explosive crash sound every time they up shift, at least on the older, NA formula ones).
I was just hyped about not having to use the clutch on shifts, and as you've also stated about the wear and maintenance involved with a true sequential, especially on a daily driven, used in stop and go traffic one.
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Verdad Gallardo I know exactly what the differences are, and the designs are clear to see.
But cost matters, especially when T56 gear strength is already well proven.
It just makes aftermarket gears hard tjustify.
Take g force....they're expensive too and have their fair share of failures...you'd need to be damn sure any other setx were strong.
But cost matters, especially when T56 gear strength is already well proven.
It just makes aftermarket gears hard tjustify.
Take g force....they're expensive too and have their fair share of failures...you'd need to be damn sure any other setx were strong.
Andrew
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
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From: Norn Iron
I promise, I am not being an *******. If there are differences between what Liberty does and what any other dog ring transmission does, in terms of gear engagement, please tell me. To be clear, I am not talking about gear strength, cost, value, or anything else. If there is a difference in actual shifting operation, I would like to learn what it is.
Andrew
Andrew
But the physical makeup of the shift parts is different, the number of dogs, their spacing and basic design.
In some ways from a wear/tear perspective the FP is better as when worn, they could be cut off and new parts welded on.
With a conventional dog setup, the gear with the integrated dogs will need replaced.
So maintenance would also be cheaper with the FP setup.
12 Second Club
Joined: Sep 2005
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From: Bucks County, Pa.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
But I'd still, say for a daily driver, it would be annoying. It's nice in traffic etc to sometimes to drop into neutral, or miss the odd gear or two.
But with the sequential, you must always go up down through gears, you cant miss any. Obviously you dont need to release the clutch each time, but each gear physically needs to be selected before moving to the next.
Would be great in when I'm racing the car but having to push clutch in drive the car evade the retarded driver and remember what gear im in, I would be hesistant on popping the clutch when downshifting in case I went to far, and I have 3 stick cars and would be confused when I drive one with this shifter and then the other, would like it more if it could light say have a light to see what gear its in when I'm daily driving my car
