The last inch
03-18-2018, 10:18 PM
#22
One time I 'upgraded' to a roller pilot bushing on my chevy 350 with a 4-speed muncie. Dang thing would NOT go into that pilot. I took it out and put the brass one back in. Trans went right in then... nice sloppy old brass pilot...
IMO its easily an alignment issue. take the advice about holding up the alignment tool to ensure the plates are exactly center. Usually we have to spin a trans some the last little bit, having a trans jack helps not having to hold it up.
IMO its easily an alignment issue. take the advice about holding up the alignment tool to ensure the plates are exactly center. Usually we have to spin a trans some the last little bit, having a trans jack helps not having to hold it up.
03-19-2018, 05:09 AM
#23
9 Second Club
That depends if anything was damaged.
Although as the bearing doesnt really do anything or spin in normal use....there isnt any reason for it to make noise whilst the clutch is engaged.
The only time there is a difference in rotation speeds between input/bearing etc is when the pedal is depressed and clutch disengaged.
Although as the bearing doesnt really do anything or spin in normal use....there isnt any reason for it to make noise whilst the clutch is engaged.
The only time there is a difference in rotation speeds between input/bearing etc is when the pedal is depressed and clutch disengaged.
03-19-2018, 06:59 AM
#24
The gearbox should always slide in easily and flush by hand. It should never require excessive effort or to be pulled in by the bolts.
And ensure you have the hydraulic line connected, or the bleeder open to allow the release bearing to retract as you push the trans into the bellhousing.
But it should go very easy, if it doesnt pull it out and find out why
And ensure you have the hydraulic line connected, or the bleeder open to allow the release bearing to retract as you push the trans into the bellhousing.
But it should go very easy, if it doesnt pull it out and find out why
One time I 'upgraded' to a roller pilot bushing on my chevy 350 with a 4-speed muncie. Dang thing would NOT go into that pilot. I took it out and put the brass one back in. Trans went right in then... nice sloppy old brass pilot...
IMO its easily an alignment issue. take the advice about holding up the alignment tool to ensure the plates are exactly center. Usually we have to spin a trans some the last little bit, having a trans jack helps not having to hold it up.
IMO its easily an alignment issue. take the advice about holding up the alignment tool to ensure the plates are exactly center. Usually we have to spin a trans some the last little bit, having a trans jack helps not having to hold it up.
03-19-2018, 07:23 AM
#25
9 Second Club
If the slave hydraulics are not sealed ( ie you say the speed bleeder is removed ) then there should be no possibility of the hydraulic setup holding the trans away from sitting flush.
How easily did the alignment tool go in ? and when viewing the hole...did it also look like everything was clear and straight ?
The tool, even the crappy plastic tools should just glide in with no effort, and likewise pull out.
But if you arent even on or near the dowels, something is not aligned correctly.
How easily did the alignment tool go in ? and when viewing the hole...did it also look like everything was clear and straight ?
The tool, even the crappy plastic tools should just glide in with no effort, and likewise pull out.
But if you arent even on or near the dowels, something is not aligned correctly.
03-19-2018, 08:12 AM
#26
If the slave hydraulics are not sealed ( ie you say the speed bleeder is removed ) then there should be no possibility of the hydraulic setup holding the trans away from sitting flush.
How easily did the alignment tool go in ? and when viewing the hole...did it also look like everything was clear and straight ?
The tool, even the crappy plastic tools should just glide in with no effort, and likewise pull out.
But if you arent even on or near the dowels, something is not aligned correctly.
How easily did the alignment tool go in ? and when viewing the hole...did it also look like everything was clear and straight ?
The tool, even the crappy plastic tools should just glide in with no effort, and likewise pull out.
But if you arent even on or near the dowels, something is not aligned correctly.
The tool definitely takes some effort to go in and out. I'll see if I can find someone with an old input shaft to use instead of the tool. As for visual alignment I can't say for sure. When I get the trans back down I'll take a look and compare to when I realign it.
I am very close to the dowels, but just not quite close enough.
Thanks for all the help!
03-19-2018, 11:45 AM
#27
9 Second Club
The tool should definitely not take effort to go in unless it was made extremely badly.
How did it slide into one disc ? then the other ? and the bearing...all on their own ? That would tell you if there is any issue with the tool.
If it move freely in each item, then it should also move freely when they're all assembled correctly.
RAM make a metal alignment too which would be better than the plastic, but the plastics are still ok.
How did it slide into one disc ? then the other ? and the bearing...all on their own ? That would tell you if there is any issue with the tool.
If it move freely in each item, then it should also move freely when they're all assembled correctly.
RAM make a metal alignment too which would be better than the plastic, but the plastics are still ok.
03-19-2018, 04:31 PM
#28
yeah man the alignment tool should slide right in like butter once the PP is tightened to spec. in majority of applications, this should make sense intuitively.
I don't know if the FSM recommends grease but I would imagine so, usually there is a required molybdenum sulfide lubricant applied to the TOB and input shaft. Make sure you are coated really well wherever it says to apply grease.
I don't know if the FSM recommends grease but I would imagine so, usually there is a required molybdenum sulfide lubricant applied to the TOB and input shaft. Make sure you are coated really well wherever it says to apply grease.
03-19-2018, 05:32 PM
#29
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: My own internal universe
Posts: 10,452
Received 1,852 Likes
on
1,152 Posts
I don't know if this will help or not... When I swapped my motor, I thought getting the trans to go on would be cake vs doing it under the car, and I couldn't get it. Got stuck about a half inch like you. I stuck the tool back in fine, and it still wouldn't go. So, I loosened the PP and put the alignment tool in. This time, I pushed IN with the tool (like toward the front of the engine) while i was tightening the PP bolts. I mean pushing in with everything I had. i think this inward pressure may have centered it better. It went right on, except the very last 1/8 inch, which I did pull in with the bolts.
One other thing I've seen when the trans won't go in like this -- double and triple check the discs are correctly oriented. I hate to even suggest it, because I'm sure you're a competent man, but i'd rather say something even if it turns out to be not the case. If the discs are reversed on their position, or flipped over, it will sometimes stick out too far and cause this. I've also seen the use of aftermarket FW bolts do it, but I saw yours are stock, unless I got my threads confused...
One other thing I've seen when the trans won't go in like this -- double and triple check the discs are correctly oriented. I hate to even suggest it, because I'm sure you're a competent man, but i'd rather say something even if it turns out to be not the case. If the discs are reversed on their position, or flipped over, it will sometimes stick out too far and cause this. I've also seen the use of aftermarket FW bolts do it, but I saw yours are stock, unless I got my threads confused...
03-19-2018, 05:34 PM
#30
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: My own internal universe
Posts: 10,452
Received 1,852 Likes
on
1,152 Posts
yeah man the alignment tool should slide right in like butter once the PP is tightened to spec. in majority of applications, this should make sense intuitively.
I don't know if the FSM recommends grease but I would imagine so, usually there is a required molybdenum sulfide lubricant applied to the TOB and input shaft. Make sure you are coated really well wherever it says to apply grease.
I don't know if the FSM recommends grease but I would imagine so, usually there is a required molybdenum sulfide lubricant applied to the TOB and input shaft. Make sure you are coated really well wherever it says to apply grease.
03-19-2018, 09:14 PM
#31
The tool should definitely not take effort to go in unless it was made extremely badly.
How did it slide into one disc ? then the other ? and the bearing...all on their own ? That would tell you if there is any issue with the tool.
If it move freely in each item, then it should also move freely when they're all assembled correctly.
RAM make a metal alignment too which would be better than the plastic, but the plastics are still ok.
How did it slide into one disc ? then the other ? and the bearing...all on their own ? That would tell you if there is any issue with the tool.
If it move freely in each item, then it should also move freely when they're all assembled correctly.
RAM make a metal alignment too which would be better than the plastic, but the plastics are still ok.
yeah man the alignment tool should slide right in like butter once the PP is tightened to spec. in majority of applications, this should make sense intuitively.
I don't know if the FSM recommends grease but I would imagine so, usually there is a required molybdenum sulfide lubricant applied to the TOB and input shaft. Make sure you are coated really well wherever it says to apply grease.
I don't know if the FSM recommends grease but I would imagine so, usually there is a required molybdenum sulfide lubricant applied to the TOB and input shaft. Make sure you are coated really well wherever it says to apply grease.
I don't know if this will help or not... When I swapped my motor, I thought getting the trans to go on would be cake vs doing it under the car, and I couldn't get it. Got stuck about a half inch like you. I stuck the tool back in fine, and it still wouldn't go. So, I loosened the PP and put the alignment tool in. This time, I pushed IN with the tool (like toward the front of the engine) while i was tightening the PP bolts. I mean pushing in with everything I had. i think this inward pressure may have centered it better. It went right on, except the very last 1/8 inch, which I did pull in with the bolts.
One other thing I've seen when the trans won't go in like this -- double and triple check the discs are correctly oriented. I hate to even suggest it, because I'm sure you're a competent man, but i'd rather say something even if it turns out to be not the case. If the discs are reversed on their position, or flipped over, it will sometimes stick out too far and cause this. I've also seen the use of aftermarket FW bolts do it, but I saw yours are stock, unless I got my threads confused...
One other thing I've seen when the trans won't go in like this -- double and triple check the discs are correctly oriented. I hate to even suggest it, because I'm sure you're a competent man, but i'd rather say something even if it turns out to be not the case. If the discs are reversed on their position, or flipped over, it will sometimes stick out too far and cause this. I've also seen the use of aftermarket FW bolts do it, but I saw yours are stock, unless I got my threads confused...
Usually they recommend a very light coat of grease, but that does remind me of something else worth doing -- use some valve grinding compound, brush it on the input shaft, move the clutch disc hub in and out a bunch of times to polish both surfaces. Clean the input shaft very throughly. Lightly grease prior to install. Also, grease the pilot of the input shaft to make sure it slides into the bearing.
03-19-2018, 09:22 PM
#32
Depending on how much of the edge of the pilot bearing the input shaft is catching but even the most minimal amount can cause the off centered input shaft to gouge or flatten 1 or more of the needle bearings inside the pilot. That will considerably compromise the bearing and the surface of the input shaft tip...which either right away or soon will start to make noise
The damage is done by using mechanical, advantage (wrench/bolts) to pull the tranny in when it hits the edge of the pilot. The first time the clutch is pushed the clutch discs and input shaft align where they should be....just you can likely now have a compromised pilot bearing
The damage is done by using mechanical, advantage (wrench/bolts) to pull the tranny in when it hits the edge of the pilot. The first time the clutch is pushed the clutch discs and input shaft align where they should be....just you can likely now have a compromised pilot bearing
03-19-2018, 09:42 PM
#33
OP
IDK why Monster advises not to use some form of lubricant (sparingly) on the input shaft over the section of shaft the clutch disc(s) travel back & forth on. Perhaps they are concerned people will get to heavy with grease or something and contaminate the disc material
Anyway what has been suggested is, IMHO, valid advice. Clean the input shaft (brake clean & wire brush) splines well. Consider the fresh metal surface on the clutch disc splines and input shaft. A very minimal amount (read barely a skim coat) of grease or locksmith graphite is a good idea (just over the area the discs ride on)
Then just take one of the discs and run it back & forth on the input shaft. This would clear and "excess" lubricant of choice you could easily wipe off disc hub and spline before you put clutch in
and + 1 on holding the spline tool with straight inward force vs just letting the disc/PP hang on it while you tighten a few PP bolts to hold everything for me has worked well
IDK why Monster advises not to use some form of lubricant (sparingly) on the input shaft over the section of shaft the clutch disc(s) travel back & forth on. Perhaps they are concerned people will get to heavy with grease or something and contaminate the disc material
Anyway what has been suggested is, IMHO, valid advice. Clean the input shaft (brake clean & wire brush) splines well. Consider the fresh metal surface on the clutch disc splines and input shaft. A very minimal amount (read barely a skim coat) of grease or locksmith graphite is a good idea (just over the area the discs ride on)
Then just take one of the discs and run it back & forth on the input shaft. This would clear and "excess" lubricant of choice you could easily wipe off disc hub and spline before you put clutch in
and + 1 on holding the spline tool with straight inward force vs just letting the disc/PP hang on it while you tighten a few PP bolts to hold everything for me has worked well
03-20-2018, 06:03 AM
#34
9 Second Club
It is common knowledge to lubricate the splines very lightly, and indeed many clutches come with a little sachet of suitable grease.
VERY lightly.
If the tool feels tight into the bearing, you need to find out why. Is it the tool ? Is it the bearing, or most likely the clutch discs are not aligned correctly to enable smooth fitment.
When lining up, just nip the cover up while you are rotating the tool/discs a little. Then when nipped up see if it looks straight, the outer edge of any friction discs look aligned, and also that the tool slide in/out easily.
If not adjust the tool until everything does line up, the discs should still be able to move with the cover only nipped up.
Then again as you fully tighten the cover ensure the tool moves freely throughout tightening and you should be all good.
VERY lightly.
If the tool feels tight into the bearing, you need to find out why. Is it the tool ? Is it the bearing, or most likely the clutch discs are not aligned correctly to enable smooth fitment.
When lining up, just nip the cover up while you are rotating the tool/discs a little. Then when nipped up see if it looks straight, the outer edge of any friction discs look aligned, and also that the tool slide in/out easily.
If not adjust the tool until everything does line up, the discs should still be able to move with the cover only nipped up.
Then again as you fully tighten the cover ensure the tool moves freely throughout tightening and you should be all good.
03-20-2018, 07:20 AM
#35
Moderator
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: My own internal universe
Posts: 10,452
Received 1,852 Likes
on
1,152 Posts
Most of the resistance seems like it's when the tool is going into the pilot.
Not sure what FSM is, but monster told me no lube on the input shaft.
I appreciate all the suggestions. I'll give it a try pushing in like you mentioned. Also I paid close attention to make sure I got the disk oriented correctly but I'll send a pic to monster to make sure I didn't make an error there.
I actually asked monster about that after reading your RPS thread, and I was specifically told not to do that.
Not sure what FSM is, but monster told me no lube on the input shaft.
I appreciate all the suggestions. I'll give it a try pushing in like you mentioned. Also I paid close attention to make sure I got the disk oriented correctly but I'll send a pic to monster to make sure I didn't make an error there.
I actually asked monster about that after reading your RPS thread, and I was specifically told not to do that.
Regarding the grease, etc, I remember an earlier clutch install with monster and I did overgrease it, and it made it chatter kinda bad, until the grease burned off, so I understand why their advice is what it is. I still do not agree with the recommendation, but it is better to follow their instructions in the event of a warranty issue.
03-20-2018, 09:15 AM
#37
10 Second Club
iTrader: (21)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The plastic install tool is absolute garbage on twin disc clutches. You have absolutely no leverage, you cannot see since it is typically bottomed out as well. I know McLeod said they were releasing an extended steel install tool on Instagram a few months ago, but I use an old input shaft now.
Used to have issues getting it lined up, dropped the trans back out and redoing the PP install several times. Use an input shaft and bam, perfect everytime.
Used to have issues getting it lined up, dropped the trans back out and redoing the PP install several times. Use an input shaft and bam, perfect everytime.
03-20-2018, 01:03 PM
#38
Thanks for all the suggestions! Will a visual inspection of the pilot to make sure I haven't damaged it (or are you talking damage that I wouldn't be able to see)?
As for grease, reading other threads it sounds like many use white lithium grease, is that what would be recommended? IIRC Monster mentioned that they don't want the grease to get contaminated with clutch dust and end up impeding the sliding of the disk.
As for grease, reading other threads it sounds like many use white lithium grease, is that what would be recommended? IIRC Monster mentioned that they don't want the grease to get contaminated with clutch dust and end up impeding the sliding of the disk.
03-20-2018, 01:17 PM
#39
I'm quite sure you got them correct, I just thought it best to mention it.
Regarding the grease, etc, I remember an earlier clutch install with monster and I did overgrease it, and it made it chatter kinda bad, until the grease burned off, so I understand why their advice is what it is. I still do not agree with the recommendation, but it is better to follow their instructions in the event of a warranty issue.
Regarding the grease, etc, I remember an earlier clutch install with monster and I did overgrease it, and it made it chatter kinda bad, until the grease burned off, so I understand why their advice is what it is. I still do not agree with the recommendation, but it is better to follow their instructions in the event of a warranty issue.
The plastic install tool is absolute garbage on twin disc clutches. You have absolutely no leverage, you cannot see since it is typically bottomed out as well. I know McLeod said they were releasing an extended steel install tool on Instagram a few months ago, but I use an old input shaft now.
Used to have issues getting it lined up, dropped the trans back out and redoing the PP install several times. Use an input shaft and bam, perfect everytime.
Used to have issues getting it lined up, dropped the trans back out and redoing the PP install several times. Use an input shaft and bam, perfect everytime.
03-20-2018, 01:40 PM
#40
The plastic alignment tool is fine. Just hold it in straight when tightening the PP bolts enough to hold the assembly in place
If you didn't pull the tranny in with bolts than you have not damaged the pilot. Certainly look at it. Run your finger in it to see if you feel any sharp edge.
I use that red thick and sticky wheel bearing grease but again VERY sparingly. Have also used regular lock graphite you buy at any hardware store to lubricate lock cylinders.
whatever you use just take a disc and slide it back and forth on the input spline . That will remove any "excess" grease you use and just wipe that off the disc hub and shaft.
Once you have a few of the PP bolts tightened enough to hold the whole assembly run your fingers around the whole edge of disc. It should be = all around to the PP and not slightly hanging over more on one side
Then just keep the tranny & engine angle = and the trans should just slide all the way in
If you didn't pull the tranny in with bolts than you have not damaged the pilot. Certainly look at it. Run your finger in it to see if you feel any sharp edge.
I use that red thick and sticky wheel bearing grease but again VERY sparingly. Have also used regular lock graphite you buy at any hardware store to lubricate lock cylinders.
whatever you use just take a disc and slide it back and forth on the input spline . That will remove any "excess" grease you use and just wipe that off the disc hub and shaft.
Once you have a few of the PP bolts tightened enough to hold the whole assembly run your fingers around the whole edge of disc. It should be = all around to the PP and not slightly hanging over more on one side
Then just keep the tranny & engine angle = and the trans should just slide all the way in