Spec stage 5 clutch cracking?
11-29-2007, 08:34 AM
#21
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i spend around 10k for the clutches from stock to mcload then spec stage 5 and finally twin disk spec ihope this will end but guys if you want my advise nothing like spec stage 3 iv seen many cars with stage 3 its the best stage
11-29-2007, 10:00 AM
#22
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I loved my spec stage 3, only had it in for about 5k miles, but performed great. My beef with spec lies in their lack of customer service...
But, for cars making BIG power, seems that one of the twin discs is the only way to go...And i will NOT be getting mine from spec...
But, for cars making BIG power, seems that one of the twin discs is the only way to go...And i will NOT be getting mine from spec...
11-29-2007, 10:27 AM
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Put 1500 miles on my spec 5. Went to the track 1 time.... drove home.. clutch slipping.... pulled her down.... looked just like your pic... spider cracked.... 3rd SPEC for me. LAST SPEC for me. Went with the Tex Twin... haven't looked back. 
11-29-2007, 11:47 AM
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No really. We'll get the send me pictures and I will take a look and tell you what went wrong. Then it will be something to the effect of: it was slipped (that's why it came out of the car), it wasn't installed properly (sure), the flywheel wasn't flat(it was one of Spec's flywheels), there was oil on it and you washed it off (so I'm a liar), or you rode the clutch (now I'm retarded) or last but not least it wasn't broken in properly (now I'm retarded and can't read). It will be great fun but in the end the clutch is still toast and it's NEVER the products fault.
11-29-2007, 12:48 PM
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It's not a point of what their excuses may be... it would just get word out there that can hurt their business because they aren't backing up their products. I've got a Spec 3 in my car... starting to have issues with it... previous owner installed it but unsure of how many miles are on it.
11-29-2007, 01:20 PM
#28
That's me... You guys are right...I am the ******* here. I have talked to many of you over the years and have always done my best to assist you in every way possible. At the same time, I work for a company that has policies in place that both protect the end user and the company as well. We would never produce a part and sell it if we beleived that there was an inherent issue...does that mean it is impossible for an issue to arise on occasion...no, but it means that we put a lot of effort and resources into developing parts that work well.
All that said, this thread boils down to two customers, both of whom have clutches that are out of warranty and that feel they have an issue. At least one of you spoke with me directly and felt that my answers were unacceptable...but just to make sure we are all on the same page I will be happy to let you all know what I said.
I have seen these cracks in stage 5 discs before...never have I seen them cause a disc to "come apart" nor have a seen any disc loose a puck due to this. The information I provide is based on experience, not guess work, not something I just randomly come up with but honest to goodness experience.
The stage 5 disc is actually a unit that originated from Top-Fuel Dragsters assemblies. By using a single sintered iron disc and our high-clamp plates you get a "Race" clutch that provides a modicum of street freidnliness. I have driven a number of them myself in everything from High-power FWD race cars (yes these cars do in fact exists) to supercharged 427ci Corvette's. To that end, lets take a look at the discription listed in the "Product" section of our web site:
" Types of Driving: Drag, Pulling
For extremely modified drag race and pulling engines, or applications that call for a ‘slipper’ clutch/progressive torque-induced engagement. These clutches are best ordered as custom configured and should be ordered after providing specific information about the car and it’s purpose to a SPEC technical assistant. Not street-friendly due to harsh engagement."
We are commonly asked if a stage 5 is street-able...the answer is yes, it can be driven on the street, but it is not a true street-friendly clutch like a number of the other applications that we provide. Now on to the cracking that you all seem to be so interested in.
The cracks occur as a result of excessive riding/slipping of the clutch. This generally occurs in cars that are driven on the street a good-deal or those that are driven by people that don't understand that they bought a "race" clutch and as such in an attempt to make it as street-friendly as possible they slip it regularly. In truth, Stage 5's perform best when allowed to do what they do best which is holding high-power in track and pulling applications.
At the end of the day, the clutches are out of warranty and thus there is no requirement that anything be done about it. I will be happy to sell either of you a new disc at a reduced price...even if you want a stage 3+ disc which will work with the stage 5 plate. Again, I am doing what I can to help you. I never like any of our customers to feel as though they have been shorted or shafted by anyone here. At the same time I think it is important for consumers to accept responsibility for their choices too.
If I may offer an anology in summation: I instruct at a number of driving schools throughout the SE (and I have spent my share of time in road-race cars over the years) and in an attempt to be a prepared and protected as possible I have a set of SFI approved racing shoes. The feel and comfort of these shoes is partly attributed to the softness of the sole used and the cupped heel that allows for easy heel-toe shifts. These shoes are meant to be used when racing but because I like the feel so much I will occasionally wear them more often. I realized when I bought these shoes that they were "race" shoes and that they shouldn't be worn regularly outside the car but because I can accept responsibility for my actions I don't call the manufacture when I wear through the sole as I bum around my garage in them. Think about it...
All that said, this thread boils down to two customers, both of whom have clutches that are out of warranty and that feel they have an issue. At least one of you spoke with me directly and felt that my answers were unacceptable...but just to make sure we are all on the same page I will be happy to let you all know what I said.
I have seen these cracks in stage 5 discs before...never have I seen them cause a disc to "come apart" nor have a seen any disc loose a puck due to this. The information I provide is based on experience, not guess work, not something I just randomly come up with but honest to goodness experience.
The stage 5 disc is actually a unit that originated from Top-Fuel Dragsters assemblies. By using a single sintered iron disc and our high-clamp plates you get a "Race" clutch that provides a modicum of street freidnliness. I have driven a number of them myself in everything from High-power FWD race cars (yes these cars do in fact exists) to supercharged 427ci Corvette's. To that end, lets take a look at the discription listed in the "Product" section of our web site:
" Types of Driving: Drag, Pulling
For extremely modified drag race and pulling engines, or applications that call for a ‘slipper’ clutch/progressive torque-induced engagement. These clutches are best ordered as custom configured and should be ordered after providing specific information about the car and it’s purpose to a SPEC technical assistant. Not street-friendly due to harsh engagement."
We are commonly asked if a stage 5 is street-able...the answer is yes, it can be driven on the street, but it is not a true street-friendly clutch like a number of the other applications that we provide. Now on to the cracking that you all seem to be so interested in.
The cracks occur as a result of excessive riding/slipping of the clutch. This generally occurs in cars that are driven on the street a good-deal or those that are driven by people that don't understand that they bought a "race" clutch and as such in an attempt to make it as street-friendly as possible they slip it regularly. In truth, Stage 5's perform best when allowed to do what they do best which is holding high-power in track and pulling applications.
At the end of the day, the clutches are out of warranty and thus there is no requirement that anything be done about it. I will be happy to sell either of you a new disc at a reduced price...even if you want a stage 3+ disc which will work with the stage 5 plate. Again, I am doing what I can to help you. I never like any of our customers to feel as though they have been shorted or shafted by anyone here. At the same time I think it is important for consumers to accept responsibility for their choices too.
If I may offer an anology in summation: I instruct at a number of driving schools throughout the SE (and I have spent my share of time in road-race cars over the years) and in an attempt to be a prepared and protected as possible I have a set of SFI approved racing shoes. The feel and comfort of these shoes is partly attributed to the softness of the sole used and the cupped heel that allows for easy heel-toe shifts. These shoes are meant to be used when racing but because I like the feel so much I will occasionally wear them more often. I realized when I bought these shoes that they were "race" shoes and that they shouldn't be worn regularly outside the car but because I can accept responsibility for my actions I don't call the manufacture when I wear through the sole as I bum around my garage in them. Think about it...
11-29-2007, 01:32 PM
#29
Keep in mind that it is actually the chatter induced by riding/slipping that causes these fractures. I am not sure that this was evendent in my explanation above.
As a side note, I have a Stage 5 disc in hand that was used in one our race cars for more than 2 years (it was also driven on the street some too) and it has some minor cracking but has never been an issue. It was only removed when we installed a Twin for testing.
For those of you that have high-power cars our new line of Super-Twins will provide great drivability and capacities that exceed stage 5 too. That being said, we provide options for every enthusiast level. Thanks for your time!!
As a side note, I have a Stage 5 disc in hand that was used in one our race cars for more than 2 years (it was also driven on the street some too) and it has some minor cracking but has never been an issue. It was only removed when we installed a Twin for testing.
For those of you that have high-power cars our new line of Super-Twins will provide great drivability and capacities that exceed stage 5 too. That being said, we provide options for every enthusiast level. Thanks for your time!!
11-29-2007, 02:06 PM
#30
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SPEC-01: You and I chatted as well and I didn't find your answers acceptable either. You may be the smartest clutch guy on here but I would really start looking around and seeing that there are more than a few unhappy customers which would tend to disprove the theory that we all don't know how to drive or install and break in a new clutch. Funny how when most change to a different one they have no problems key word is most. I am done discussing Spec clutches. I have used them and I won't any longer nor will I recommend them to my friends. I was not impressed by the service or the product and I definately do not like the excuses I hear on here and from other people.
11-29-2007, 02:41 PM
#31
Hey race...you are certainly welcome to form and maintain your own opinions. I am not now, nor have I ever, attempted to sway your perogative. At the same time you mention something that sets us apart from others in the industry. I am here, day in and day out maintaining a dialogue with you and others in an attempt to provide great service and support.
You may not always like me (I may not always like you you) but I will continue to work with any of you that have an issue. Does that mean that we will cover every issue under warranty (even if its well outside of the warranty period just to make you happy)...no, but it does mean that when you have issues with what ever product you choose to use that I will still be here willing to offer a helping hand and educated advice. Until that point I wish you the best. Let me know if you ever get down this way and I will be happy to buy you a beer! Thanks and good luck...
You may not always like me (I may not always like you you) but I will continue to work with any of you that have an issue. Does that mean that we will cover every issue under warranty (even if its well outside of the warranty period just to make you happy)...no, but it does mean that when you have issues with what ever product you choose to use that I will still be here willing to offer a helping hand and educated advice. Until that point I wish you the best. Let me know if you ever get down this way and I will be happy to buy you a beer! Thanks and good luck...
11-29-2007, 04:55 PM
#32
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Jeremy,
There is 1 of 2 things (maybe both) going on here with this clutch:
1) The clutch has an inherent design flaw, ie, disc too thin, too britle a material, etc.
or...
2) Your companies' claims that this can be a streetable clutch are false. If this clutch is failing because of street use (which im not denying, seems quite plausible) then you do not need to recommend it, or advertise it as a "streetable" clutch. It's like aluminum connecting rods, they are for race use only for a reason. They would not survive long in a street car.
Either way, I assume you personally did not design this clutch, nor are you (or your company) apt enough to test a disc with such cracks in a controlled situation, while taking measurements, untill failure. Purpose being to determine whether or not the disc is still safe to run. The "one has not yet failed" attitude just doesn't cut it when my legs are at risk.
Would you knowingly run a driveshaft with a crack in it? How about an engine block? Axles? I hope your answer is NO. The thing is, if any of those items fail, your personal safety is not really an issue compared to a clutch coming apart. A clutch can, and WILL cause serious harm to the driver/passengers seeing as there are no scattershields available for our cars.
I respect the fact that you frequent these boards, but don't think you are the only one. Mcleod, for example, has a message board of their own...
There is 1 of 2 things (maybe both) going on here with this clutch:
1) The clutch has an inherent design flaw, ie, disc too thin, too britle a material, etc.
or...
2) Your companies' claims that this can be a streetable clutch are false. If this clutch is failing because of street use (which im not denying, seems quite plausible) then you do not need to recommend it, or advertise it as a "streetable" clutch. It's like aluminum connecting rods, they are for race use only for a reason. They would not survive long in a street car.
Either way, I assume you personally did not design this clutch, nor are you (or your company) apt enough to test a disc with such cracks in a controlled situation, while taking measurements, untill failure. Purpose being to determine whether or not the disc is still safe to run. The "one has not yet failed" attitude just doesn't cut it when my legs are at risk.
Would you knowingly run a driveshaft with a crack in it? How about an engine block? Axles? I hope your answer is NO. The thing is, if any of those items fail, your personal safety is not really an issue compared to a clutch coming apart. A clutch can, and WILL cause serious harm to the driver/passengers seeing as there are no scattershields available for our cars.
I respect the fact that you frequent these boards, but don't think you are the only one. Mcleod, for example, has a message board of their own...
11-30-2007, 09:48 AM
#33
I have never claimed to be the only one these boards that offer insight on clutch issues...that was done by one of you fellow forum members. I explain to every customer looking for a stage 5 that it is not a "street" clutch though it has been used by many people as just that for over 6 years. All we can do is provide the apporpriate info; the customer makes the final dicision...as with any product it is the end users ultimate choice.
One should also keep in mind that a number of factors can increase the the potential for the propegation of the cracks: Namely, a worn or missing pilot bearing/bushing, increase input shaft play (as a result of bad bearings), or a loose bell housing. I am sure that in your vast experience and knowledge you know this already but I never like to assume in regards to aptitude.
I have no issue with you Will and it is certainly your call to use whatever clutch you want. That being said I wish you the best. Have a great weekend!
One should also keep in mind that a number of factors can increase the the potential for the propegation of the cracks: Namely, a worn or missing pilot bearing/bushing, increase input shaft play (as a result of bad bearings), or a loose bell housing. I am sure that in your vast experience and knowledge you know this already but I never like to assume in regards to aptitude.
I have no issue with you Will and it is certainly your call to use whatever clutch you want. That being said I wish you the best. Have a great weekend!
11-30-2007, 10:32 AM
#34
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Maybe I missed it, but what was the reason you pulled the trans and inspected the clutch? Was it an out of the blue problem at the track, or just normal driving?
I've personally never delt with Spec clutches, but at least they have some kind of warranty. Talk about a warranty to most manufacturers and they laugh cause they are race parts. No warranty with that kind of abuse. I have seen a lot of posts about Spec in this forumn, but they probably sell the most aftermarket clutches for an LS1 car.
Off subject, but I just waisted 400 bucks on a set of injectors that were too small. I worked with a well known company to pick out the injectors based on my motor, but they were too small. I didn't call cause I knew they weren't going to do anything about it and the problem was still there. Sometimes we just have to grit our teeth, stress out, and move on. It sucks, but sometimes that's reality.
Someone stated above that companies say that you installed it wrong, didn't drive it right, etc cause we don't know what we are doing. One thing that I've learned is that most individuals on this forumn think everyone else is stupid, wrong, and going in the wrong direction.
Just throwing out an unbiased opinion.
I've personally never delt with Spec clutches, but at least they have some kind of warranty. Talk about a warranty to most manufacturers and they laugh cause they are race parts. No warranty with that kind of abuse. I have seen a lot of posts about Spec in this forumn, but they probably sell the most aftermarket clutches for an LS1 car.
Off subject, but I just waisted 400 bucks on a set of injectors that were too small. I worked with a well known company to pick out the injectors based on my motor, but they were too small. I didn't call cause I knew they weren't going to do anything about it and the problem was still there. Sometimes we just have to grit our teeth, stress out, and move on. It sucks, but sometimes that's reality.
Someone stated above that companies say that you installed it wrong, didn't drive it right, etc cause we don't know what we are doing. One thing that I've learned is that most individuals on this forumn think everyone else is stupid, wrong, and going in the wrong direction.
Just throwing out an unbiased opinion.
11-30-2007, 11:44 AM
#35
It does not say anywhere on Specs website to "NOT" use the stage 5 clutch on the street. The site states that it is "not street friendly" which implies to me it can be used on the street but it will have issues, therfore it should be designed to withstand "normal" street driving conditions. http://www.specclutch.com/
If the Stage 5 clutch can be used on the street per by the manufacturer, and the cracks appear as a result of normal street driving but are not an "issue", how can this be considered acceptable?
Those cracks according to Spec as stated in this thread have appeared as a result of slipping the clutch in order to properly drive on the street.
It is my assumption that the Stage 5 clutch is designed to be dumped and not slipped or modulated, I have never used one but I think I am correct here. I am confident that if I had a stage 5 and dumped it every time when driving it on the street then I would have one improper take off ticket after another since I am not supposed to slip the clutch or modulate it per the manufacturer specification. This type of driving is not acceptable anywhere and to satisfy the law one will have to slip it or modulate to avoid spinning tires but this will cause damage to the stage 5 clutch.
I am not a genius but having stress cracks in something that is subjected to huge torque and RPM can not be a good thing especially when it is near your legs.
Again using the term "not street friendly" still implies to me that it can be used on the street, this is the real problem here. It just seems like the smart thing to do from the manufacturers end is to claim that the stage 5 is not streetable and should not be used on the street since the disk can not withstand being slipped or modulated to drive in accordance with the law without causing damage.
I know that if this claim were made then there are still some who would use it on the street, these are the guys that would be using a product that is "out of manufactures specification". At least now the manufacturer would be completely covered and the stage 5 product would not be tarnished like it appears in this thread.
This is not another Spec bashing reply, I just think they should classify the stage 5 clutch as race only and it "should not be used on the street" period end of story. The problem here is not Spec's product, but the application.
Maybe I am totally wrong here.
If the Stage 5 clutch can be used on the street per by the manufacturer, and the cracks appear as a result of normal street driving but are not an "issue", how can this be considered acceptable?
Those cracks according to Spec as stated in this thread have appeared as a result of slipping the clutch in order to properly drive on the street.It is my assumption that the Stage 5 clutch is designed to be dumped and not slipped or modulated, I have never used one but I think I am correct here. I am confident that if I had a stage 5 and dumped it every time when driving it on the street then I would have one improper take off ticket after another since I am not supposed to slip the clutch or modulate it per the manufacturer specification. This type of driving is not acceptable anywhere and to satisfy the law one will have to slip it or modulate to avoid spinning tires but this will cause damage to the stage 5 clutch.
I am not a genius but having stress cracks in something that is subjected to huge torque and RPM can not be a good thing especially when it is near your legs.
Again using the term "not street friendly" still implies to me that it can be used on the street, this is the real problem here. It just seems like the smart thing to do from the manufacturers end is to claim that the stage 5 is not streetable and should not be used on the street since the disk can not withstand being slipped or modulated to drive in accordance with the law without causing damage.
I know that if this claim were made then there are still some who would use it on the street, these are the guys that would be using a product that is "out of manufactures specification". At least now the manufacturer would be completely covered and the stage 5 product would not be tarnished like it appears in this thread.
This is not another Spec bashing reply, I just think they should classify the stage 5 clutch as race only and it "should not be used on the street" period end of story. The problem here is not Spec's product, but the application.
Maybe I am totally wrong here.
Last edited by wrd1972; 11-30-2007 at 11:58 AM.
11-30-2007, 09:07 PM
#36
Very well put WRD 1972 . Instead of keeping this product open to a larger market by saying that can be used on the street they should sell it as a race only clutch. They may sell less but they won't get hammered by people who feel they were mislead by the claims in the advertisement.
11-30-2007, 11:40 PM
#37
Im using a stage 3+. This is the third clutch I have gone threw with them in 3 years. The one I have in there now is working just fine. The second went out due to Leaky rear main seal. But as long as this works out I will go to spec again.
