Mullet

iTrader: (2)

Punishments have really changed since I came in. At one time, we had "blast fence" training. Also known as flightline "wall to wall" counseling in some circles. This would usually have a rather large NCO taking a subordinate behind the blast fence on the flightline and giving a mentoring session with his fists.

We also had other types of adjustments. If someone failed an inlet inspection, they would be in on a Sat inspecting engine inlets. (B-52, 8 engines, 16 in the fleet so you do the math). If someone failed a cockpit FOD inspection, they would be out on a Sat with a vaccum cleaner cleaning the fleet.

Then if someone was being a total dumbass, we would duct tape them to a 150lb halon fire bottle and drop them off right next to the alert pad and leave them. The SPs would have fun jacking them up. We also did ceiling checks in the truck.

Problem today is too many pussies out there in the AF that will cry to mommy. I wonder how these folks would handle actual war duties....

JCurtin

iTrader: (1)

Other than your Inlet inspection comments the rest are just plain stupidity. You wonder how "us folks" aka the new generation would take it, you call us pussies, yet your generation let another grown man slap them around while at work and stood there and took it? I wish another man would and i dont give a damn what rank he is attempt to "go behind the blast fence" we'd be fighting before we left the office.

Duct taping people to a firebottle? Sounds like some dumb college ****. How is that some type of punishment? I'd take my chances with the rule book, odds are nothing someone did broke as many laws as a so called nco punching sense into them, or a bunch of idiots duct taping someone to a firebottle.

Has nothing to do with "crying to mommy", the USAF is a job, some people need to realise that. If someone is that **** poor of at leading and has to slap someone to get their attention for "respect" they should go be a football coach.

JCurtin

iTrader: (1)

I'm with the other guy, I'd rather take my paperwork and keep my dignity than do some bullshit like cutting grass with scissors, seperating rocks or anything of the sort. I'm an NCO and I would never in my life tell someone to do some crap like that because I for one would not do it. What does that accomplish? I'll make someone stay late to actually work, or say hey crew chiefs you need a hand changing those brakes, hey I got someone for you. Not only are they actually learning something, its not paying them to do something absolutely stupid like organizing rocks.

But we are talking the military here, so what I said would never happen because it makes too much sense and "I made him sweep the flightline" sounds so much cooler.

98 T/A raptor

iTrader: (2)

I agree with that why make someone do some useless **** when they could be doing something to help out. What good does sepperated rock's do? It dosent, make them do something that need's done like stay late and clean the shop, wash vehicles, pick weeds there is to much **** that need's done whatever it may be.

Mullet

iTrader: (2)

Well, that is a problem with today's "kinder and gentler" mindset. Maybe if you were brought up in the "old school" military, you would understand.

This was the military I served in. Serving with nuke tipped aircraft for days on end while waiting for the horn to go off takes a lot out of you. Sitting in a truck while on AARP (Alert Aircraft Repositioning Plan) for hours on end with nothing but a port a ******* sucked. 12-14 hour days during ORIs outside with your jet in the snow or rain with the wheelwell your only shelter (unless you were an SP who only had a poncho) was a fact of life. Getting a phone call at 2AM telling you to grab your bag, you were deploying in 2 hours was another fact of life. Sitting on Alert on Christmas, New Years and other holidays was a badge of honor.

There was no internet, no CAMS, no cable TV. There was no days off for a good job. There were 12 hour days working 45-60 days straight for screwing up. Maybe if this was still a fact of life, Minot would have not sent a ******* nuke package to Barksdale "by accident". Maybe that Barksdale SP would have not been shot in the foot at roll call last week.

People did weird things. People were a TEAM. People knew their coworkers like their own brothers. People were by the book, and when allowed, there was time to screw off. Friendships were forged that last a lifetime.

You must understand that this is the MILITARY, and your mission is to KILL PEOPLE. This is not a "JOB". This is national security, and the military is the only thing that prevents others from marching in and taking your "life" away.

True military thinking is lacking today. Too many bitch because they have to come in on a weekend when they screw up. Too many bitch if they go over 8 hours. If someone tells you **** off, do you report them, or do you ask yourself why he did that? Too many don't know the true sense of protecting their country. If you want a 9 to 5 job, then maybe the military is not for you.

It is called ******* RESPONSIBILITY. It is not a ******* JOB.

I will agree that the Air Force is gutted today, and is nothing like it was some time ago. People get screwed all the time. True supervisors do try to cut their folks some slack. Yes, I was one of those. If you don't think that is possible, talk to any Crew Chief at Barksdale and ask them just what kind of supervisor I was.

Blast fence training was not something for the average hard working troop, but for the smart mouth dipshits who tried to flex, just like the punks who flex on their fathers when they are 15-16. As for the taping to fire bottles, ceiling checks, etc., this built teams, as odd as it seems. Now, it is gone, thanks to the cry babies and all who "think they have rights". Guess what? No one in the military has rights. The military doesn't even have to pay you for what you do. Did you see that in your contract? What would you do if you didn't get paid, walk off the job? According to the contract you signed, you would get sent to the slammer just as quick as if you killed someone.

Grow some skin like the true military members. Tell the brave Army and Marines sleeping in sand beds they dug the night before about discipline. Tell them about "paperwork" as they are driving through streets being shot at and watching their buddies die. Tell them about their "job" and you will wish they would only tape you to a fire bottle. Instead, they will show you what a true warrior would do. They might even tell you to **** off before they take you behind the blast fence.

No wonder the other services laugh at the AF. Posts like this only make the AF out as a bunch of cable TV watching, internet surfing, chow hall complaining pansy asses.

I served 22 years with pride knowing I did my part. I bitched and complained, but I did what I was told. Maybe you should do the same because I don't need no Hodgie knocking at my door because you felt that protecting this country was just a "job".

acertx

We had some guy sign in(not diff. uniform) for 2 weeks straight on the hour because he went over our section leaders head to the Plt. Sgt about something.

If someone was going to do wall to wall counseling on me I'd fight back. I've never heard anyone say you had to take a beating.

JCurtin

iTrader: (1)

Guess what? No one in the military has rights. The military doesn't even have to pay you for what you do. Did you see that in your contract? What would you do if you didn't get paid, walk off the job? According to the contract you signed, you would get sent to the slammer just as quick as if you killed someone.

lol. This is the problem with too many people these days. Caught up in the "military owns you" dont nobody own me. Please spare me your true warrior talk. I do my job with no questions asked, I'll be damned if I am going to ever feel like I have "no rights". Its bullshit for anyone to ever think or believe **** like that. This aint 50 years ago. Like it or not, there are tons of us that serve right now. Thats right, I serve, just like you did. I dont have to have your "hhhoooooraaaahh" attitude to do my JOB. Thats what it is a JOB.
I dont get caught up in the hype to look at it any other way. Am I getting shot at right now? Nope. But I am deployed right now, if I wanted to get shot at and live in bunkers for a living I would have signed up to do another JOB.


If you think "nobody has rights" gives you the right to tape someone to a firebottle, or slap someone around, well you got serious problems, what gives you the right? Because you were an Nco? Please. Nothing makes my day better than some old timer trying to tell me what the military is or how I am supposed to perceive it. If you stuck around to be underpaid and sleeping under a jet, thats great for you. Everyone doesnt have to feel like you felt. I go in just like the next man, when I am called to my JOB, I do it. For some reason people like you equate attitudes like mine as not doing the JOB.

I know damn well the USAF or any other branch truthfully gives a **** about the people on the ground or in the air, does that mindset mean I cant or wont do the job, no it doesnt. It means I know not to put this **** on a pedistal because I have said plenty of times it can be gone tomorrow, and guess what every USAF member that posts in this forum could be one of the 12k about to be looking for.....you guessed it......a JOB.

JCurtin

iTrader: (1)

I consider people like you "barnes" consider me "Elias", 2 entirely different points of view.

Mullet

iTrader: (2)

Call me what you may, I don't give a rat's ***.

I stand by my statements, and I am sure others would too.

If you are indeed a good hard working, clean nose airman, you would not have to worry about this. This was reserved for those idiots who thought the AF OWED them something. If you are not one of these, you should take no offense. If you are one of the new generation who thinks everything revolves around you, then you are part of the problem today.

FYI: I just retired, so this was not 50 years ago. Then again, people who served 50 years ago knew the meaning of service. If not, you would be speaking Russian right now, and would have nothing. That is the difference between true vets and today's "give me what I want" types.

Also, the people doing the taping were subordinates, not the boss. It was part of the "family" we had back then, not punishment (I didn't make that clear, so sorry). Tell me you never played practical jokes on anyone. For the people who didn't want to be a part of the team, well they were left alone. I heard no complaints from my coworkers about this, and we laugh about it 22 years later. We all went through it, like B-52 gunners who wore eye patches for 3 solid days to test for vision problems, or crewdogs who had to take the "eat me in case we crash" letter to the Wing Commander. This is something we had and it gave us not only strong bonds, but stories to remember. Good times. Not this "Oh my ***** hurts" bullshit.

And we would BBQ together, hang out on Friday nights after swing shift, and have shop parties. This is something you do not see today. People go to work then go home. No teamwork at all, just a bunch of strangers who must work together. No brotherhood like it use to be. Just everyone out their to cover their own ***. That was true wingmanship, not this crap they force on the people today. That is sad.

Maybe you should pay a visit to a local VA hospital and talk to some of these "old" types. You will learn something about what is right for your country, not just what is right for you.

69Nova355

Let's see....

Separate brown rocks from tan rocks
Dust light bulbs
Rotate ceiling tiles
Cut scissors with grass
Clean wheels on chairs


I'm going to add two...."scrub floors with a tooth brush"...and "pick weeds with tweezers"....

Yeah I'm compiling a list of "bullshit things to do for **** ups" when there's nothing better to do.

Mullet does bring on a good point, doesn't seem anyone wants to "work together" anymore....as if the spirit went out the window years ago....now everyone wants to work individually so it seems.

Hodgie???? You must mean "Haji".

BTW the USAF is more than just a job.....it's a way of life. Remember that.

Mullet

iTrader: (2)

I know. Misspelled on purpose so I don't "offend".....

Vee 6

I agree with everything Mullet said, especially the teamwork, brotherhood stuff. You sorta remind me of a flight chief and supervisor I had when I first came in the AF 14 years ago. Total old school but I had more respect for them and so did the other airmen. If you fucked up you were punished the way they saw fit and you damn sure didn't do it again. But they still treated everyone equally and played no favorites.

gatman01

iTrader: (7)

I don't know about that. Yes, people have seperate lives, but when it comes down to it, I knew that I could count on the people I served with. We could hate each other, we can disagree, but I knew that I could trust them in a fighting hole. Take a trip to your nearest infantry battalion and you'll see what I'm talking about. Because no matter how you look at it, grunts are always the focus of main effort. You can bomb it, shoot it, blow it up, but the objective is never really taken until a rifleman is there to raise up Old Glory.

LT Malice

iTrader: (3)

This thread is funny.

To the original poster: that punishment blows, especially if your NCO is **** about inspections. It's better than getting an administrative punishment that goes on the books though.

To all the airforce goobers talking about how tough they are. All of us Marines are laughing at you. Life is hard because you only had to work 14 hour days, you got to sit in trucks, and you had a porta potty to **** in.

I'm just a Marine pilot though, so I don't have any room to make fun of USAF guys at the moment. I'll just giggle in the backgound.

ImpalaSSpeed96

iTrader: (10)

Bingo..... Don't even try to say it was the first time.

Mullet: Def a different day and age. While I will agree that a lot of the AF is weak, it is the AF. But some of the stuff you are talking about is "college" crap. The only thing that stuff would teach me is to F your stuff up one day, badly. I'm definitely one of the clean nosed Airman, 5 eapers, BTZ SrA, LOA's from CC's and O6s, missed staff the first time by single digits but... I don't agree w/ your mindset at all. Mind you I'm not a "young airman" either, Ill be 25 here in 3 months. My Chief has been in 27 years and does not have the same mindset as you. I would have to say I loathe the day when I have a supervisor like you. Although there most certainly isn't any fellowship like you had, I don't necessarily think those practical jokes would cause it either. My buddies shop always F'd around like that and all I could think was "I can't believe the complete lack of Military bearing....." But perhaps i won't loathe the day when i get a supervisor like you because he won't ever have to bother me. But if you don't have somewhat of a revolves around me attitude, they will walk all over you. I agree the military has gotten soft, but its also gotten a lot better in certain aspects. Its most certainly a give and take. But the whole hazing thing is definitely unacceptable in my book. The worst part of the USAF right now is the cutbacks. That is what is causing the morale to go down more than anything. We're doing the job of 4 people now and we are swamped. I know I don't enjoy my job anymore but thank god I'm being given the oppurtunity to try out a different section.

My 2 cents.....

JCurtin

iTrader: (1)

I see where you are coming from, you came off as talking punishment. When I came in our squadron still had kegs out for retirements and i remember thinking, that was pretty damn cool. Does it still happen, hell no it doesnt.

Your 1st post didnt really reflect what this one did. Taping people to chairs and rolling them down the hall to outside to get doused with any and everything when they got orders or were getting out, yes I remember stuff like that, safetywiring people to benches on the truck if they dosed off. I also remember being told "NO HORSEPLAY" when it was our turn to do it. So yes it is sad.

Seems like everytime I come to the desert I talk to older guys that have been around the block. Especially the guard guys that used to be active duty. Listening to those guys and other people that are about to retire, that has given me the perspective that I have now, better do it for me and my family, because nobody else will. If you dont prepare for life after the military years ahead of time, its going to be rather hard if you start preparing at 18years.

I'm not really "complaining", if you just retired then you got to experience things in maintenance how they "were" and you got to experience how it "is" now.

JCurtin

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=ImpalaSSpeed96;7884928]Although there most certainly isn't any fellowship like you had, I don't necessarily think those practical jokes would cause it either. My buddies shop always F'd around like that and all I could think was "I can't believe the complete lack of Military bearing....." But perhaps i won't loathe the day when i get a supervisor like you because he won't ever have to bother me. QUOTE]

Well I cant say I agree with you either. lol
You have to have fun at work, as long as you arent breaking ****, and not paying attention, you just have to. Long nights doing work on a friday night on swingshift, you have to make sometihng of it.
When I joined not only was our shop "fat" but we all had a blast. The 1st 4 years of my career were definitely the best. My shop had alot of jokers, we did work and we had a good time doing it.
The "lack of military bearing guys" those cracked me up. Those are the type guys that yell at you for wearing flyers underwear jackets(chinese underwear) on the flightline or when you run into the building for a part
"HEY THATS AN UNDER GARMENT NOT OUTERWEAR!!!". Those are the hat and sunglass police in the desert, the "dont put your hands in your pockets thats what gloves are for" people. Blame those guys for what the AF is today.

JCurtin

iTrader: (1)

Well I cant say I agree with you either. lol
You have to have fun at work, as long as you arent breaking ****, and not paying attention, you just have to. Long nights doing work on a friday night on swingshift, you have to make sometihng of it.
When I joined not only was our shop "fat" but we all had a blast. The 1st 4 years of my career were definitely the best. My shop had alot of jokers, we did work and we had a good time doing it.
The "lack of military bearing guys" those cracked me up. Those are the type guys that yell at you for wearing flyers underwear jackets(chinese underwear) on the flightline or when you run into the building for a part
"HEY THATS AN UNDER GARMENT NOT OUTERWEAR!!!". Those are the hat and sunglass police in the desert, the "dont put your hands in your pockets thats what gloves are for" people. Blame those guys for what the AF is today.

ImpalaSSpeed96

iTrader: (10)

I'm most certainly not a hard *** and joke a lot at work and most certainly don't look forward to the day of supervising because I'm not the type of guy to give out punishment but there has to be military bearing at work. You have to know when to use it and when not to. But you can't be one of those me a MSgt when you want to be. Its a very fine line I suppose. My whole thing is when we're in a closed room its whatever, call me by my first name. But if there is anybody else around at all its rank Smith.... I've taken extremely well to the military after saying I'd never join because thats just not me. I actually like it a lot but its not for me as a career. The pay is just not where I need it to be to do the things I want to in life. I almost wish I had went to school and came in as an O. But even then I don't know if its a career deal. I'm very floppy on the decision. I def agree you have to have fun at work and more than understand the long shift thing as I've seen maybe 6 total mos of 8 hour shifts in the three years I been in. Most are 14 hour days w/ travel and no consistency to a schedule. The Command Post way of life I suppose. But I'm just not one for the big practical jokes at work. The tape over the CAC is funny. The sending gay emails to people in the section because you left your CAC in when you walked away is unacceptable to me. Blame it on me for OPSEC or what but like I said, there needs to be a line. I think if more Airman like myself could decipher that line, we wouldn't have the people askin for quarters when you have your hands in your pockets.

Either way, its all a moot point.

Mullet

iTrader: (2)

Impala, Seeing that you are Command Post explains your lack of understanding of the "maintenance" world, and that is OK. Maintainers are the grunts of the AF who are known to "party hard, play hard". So these petty college pranks as you say it are something that maintainers have always done. Hazing? Maybe, but no one forced one in it, and for the people who didn't take part, they usually cross trained into other areas like Comm, Finance and Intel. Not because they were outcasts, but were meant for other things. Maintainers are their own animals. While others might stick their nose up at them, others love them. Ask any aircrew member about their maintainers and see what they think.

Most supervisors of the time would not be involved, and it was "out of sight, out of mind". As long as the mission was done safely, there was room for the "bonding". Maintenance is not for everyone.

I do agree with you that the cutbacks are really hurting. I saw this and it really sucked for me to take care of my troops when we were constantly being beaten into the ground due to the high Ops tempo and lack of people. One of many reasons I decided to retire.

As for you being a 5 EPR, BTZ, etc, great for you. That takes a lot of work. To tell you a secret, I too went my entire career with straight 5s, I got BTZ, and I made SSgt on my first attempt (back in the days when it was actually hard to make it). I crewed the Wing Flagship, and I got LOAs and coined by 4star Generals (including the CINSAC Gen Chain and CSAF Gen Fogleman). I went to school and got 3 college degrees and actually considered OTS. But as my career went on, I saw that to make the higher ranks (SMSgt and CMSgt), one has to kiss some serious *** and has to be a "yes man". One has to stuff their EPRs with things that have nothing to do with the mission (example: community service, memberships in clubs, etc.) That was not for me. While there are higher ranking SNCOs out there that made it on their merit, it is a rare thing. I made MSgt, and am content with that. So I am not that "gung ho" type, but did know how to take care of the mission and my people.

Gatman, Yes, you see a brotherhood in the Army that you will not see in the AF. I think I pointed that out. I salute the Army.

LT, I cannot blame you for the chuckle. Marines are the backbone, and you put up with a lot of real crap. Keep up the great job.