Pontiac G8 GT vs. BMW 550i
04-03-2008, 02:25 PM
#61
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Anyone’s decision is obviously going to based on what type of person you are. I've driven all kinds of European, Japanese and American cars. If you’re want bang for the buck American cars no matter what company you choose always win. So maybe the 3 series has smaller gaps in-between its interior parts and body panels but guess what I’ll be happy with the biggest gap of all and that’s the one inbetween you and the freaking 3 series looking at the taillights of your G8. I was in the G8 over the weekend at the NY auto show and the interior seems very nice to me and felt more solid than the beamers. Personally I think the only difference between BMW’s and a normal car company is that people see them as more of a status symbol because I really can’t tell what all the extra cash pays for.
Last edited by CaseyEaterMach1; 04-03-2008 at 02:31 PM.
04-03-2008, 04:00 PM
#62
My point I was bringing to you guys, was that all this stuff that GM is FINALLY trying to bring to the market, has been done for years by the others! They need to step up to the plate, because they are far far behind.
If you can't tell what the extra cash pays for, then you probably won't be able to tell the difference between driving one vs. a Cavalier.
I still don't understand how people can say that. The safety features alone in these cars, dwarf GMs entire design process.
I'd love to see someone explain to me how the traction control in our 350HP cars is worth a ****. On the other hand, the DSC, ASR, and ABS systems of the BMWs are 10 fold better, in even the least powerfull of cars.
I don't know how many lives these systems have saved... The TECHNOLOGY they brought forward, had to be paid somehow! Glorified as a status symbol in some eyes I suppose. But it isn't for no reason.
****, the Europeans were using disc brakes on virtually all their cars in the 70s. It took GM ******* 20 years to even figure that one out.
04-03-2008, 04:11 PM
#63
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Uh... didn't you say you worked for BMW? You kinda just reduced your credibility a bit there.
The ABS/TCS system on the F-Body, Corvette, and many other GMs is the Bosch 5.3 ABS system. The very same one used on many BMWs, and the 5.7 is used on their Xi's since it's meant for AWD.
The hardware is the same (right down to the part numbers). It's a-la-carte features. Take the complete package, take out what you don't want, and there ya go. At most there might be some software tweaks to the EBCM/EBTCM but that's not very clear.
It's a system that was co-developed by the Robert Bosch Corp and Mercedes-Benz. It it also used on the Porsche 911 since about 2000.
So yes, it IS "worth a ****", and that is how/why. It's actually VERY good. My guess is you haven't really pushed it at all nor done too much digging into what it is and how it works. It's actually quite stunning for a car that is so inexpensive and so much maligned, even by it's own fans.
At 6K miles it sounds like you had no mods. The stock DeCarbons suck ***. Also, your ride height is WAY too low. So you are either slamming bump stops or have super stiff springs and shocks (of unkown brand). Those rims look larger too - larger = heavier. Upgraded rear too? (more unsprung weight) Lift it, use stock WS6 springs and Koni SAs with larger sidewalls and you'll see a world of difference. Unless you have SFCs. They seem to create a drum-like effect and channel more NVH into the cabin.
Also, a loose interior does not = lack of quality. That's a mis-conception. Just like the idea that Toyota is great quality, and automatically always better than GM. I've ridden in a co-workers Scion Tc many times (including today), and while the interior seems tight and quiet, it looks horribly cheap and is nowhere NEAR as nice a place to be as my 02 T/A WS6.
The ABS/TCS system on the F-Body, Corvette, and many other GMs is the Bosch 5.3 ABS system. The very same one used on many BMWs, and the 5.7 is used on their Xi's since it's meant for AWD.
The hardware is the same (right down to the part numbers). It's a-la-carte features. Take the complete package, take out what you don't want, and there ya go. At most there might be some software tweaks to the EBCM/EBTCM but that's not very clear.
It's a system that was co-developed by the Robert Bosch Corp and Mercedes-Benz. It it also used on the Porsche 911 since about 2000.
So yes, it IS "worth a ****", and that is how/why. It's actually VERY good. My guess is you haven't really pushed it at all nor done too much digging into what it is and how it works. It's actually quite stunning for a car that is so inexpensive and so much maligned, even by it's own fans.
At 6K miles it sounds like you had no mods. The stock DeCarbons suck ***. Also, your ride height is WAY too low. So you are either slamming bump stops or have super stiff springs and shocks (of unkown brand). Those rims look larger too - larger = heavier. Upgraded rear too? (more unsprung weight) Lift it, use stock WS6 springs and Koni SAs with larger sidewalls and you'll see a world of difference. Unless you have SFCs. They seem to create a drum-like effect and channel more NVH into the cabin.
Also, a loose interior does not = lack of quality. That's a mis-conception. Just like the idea that Toyota is great quality, and automatically always better than GM. I've ridden in a co-workers Scion Tc many times (including today), and while the interior seems tight and quiet, it looks horribly cheap and is nowhere NEAR as nice a place to be as my 02 T/A WS6.
04-03-2008, 04:59 PM
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Uh... didn't you say you worked for BMW? You kinda just reduced your credibility a bit there.
The ABS/TCS system on the F-Body, Corvette, and many other GMs is the Bosch 5.3 ABS system. The very same one used on many BMWs, and the 5.7 is used on their Xi's since it's meant for AWD.
The hardware is the same (right down to the part numbers). It's a-la-carte features. Take the complete package, take out what you don't want, and there ya go. At most there might be some software tweaks to the EBCM/EBTCM but that's not very clear.
It's a system that was co-developed by the Robert Bosch Corp and Mercedes-Benz. It it also used on the Porsche 911 since about 2000.
So yes, it IS "worth a ****", and that is how/why. It's actually VERY good. My guess is you haven't really pushed it at all nor done too much digging into what it is and how it works. It's actually quite stunning for a car that is so inexpensive and so much maligned, even by it's own fans.
At 6K miles it sounds like you had no mods. The stock DeCarbons suck ***. Also, your ride height is WAY too low. So you are either slamming bump stops or have super stiff springs and shocks (of unkown brand). Those rims look larger too - larger = heavier. Upgraded rear too? (more unsprung weight) Lift it, use stock WS6 springs and Koni SAs with larger sidewalls and you'll see a world of difference. Unless you have SFCs. They seem to create a drum-like effect and channel more NVH into the cabin.
Also, a loose interior does not = lack of quality. That's a mis-conception. Just like the idea that Toyota is great quality, and automatically always better than GM. I've ridden in a co-workers Scion Tc many times (including today), and while the interior seems tight and quiet, it looks horribly cheap and is nowhere NEAR as nice a place to be as my 02 T/A WS6.
The ABS/TCS system on the F-Body, Corvette, and many other GMs is the Bosch 5.3 ABS system. The very same one used on many BMWs, and the 5.7 is used on their Xi's since it's meant for AWD.
The hardware is the same (right down to the part numbers). It's a-la-carte features. Take the complete package, take out what you don't want, and there ya go. At most there might be some software tweaks to the EBCM/EBTCM but that's not very clear.
It's a system that was co-developed by the Robert Bosch Corp and Mercedes-Benz. It it also used on the Porsche 911 since about 2000.
So yes, it IS "worth a ****", and that is how/why. It's actually VERY good. My guess is you haven't really pushed it at all nor done too much digging into what it is and how it works. It's actually quite stunning for a car that is so inexpensive and so much maligned, even by it's own fans.
At 6K miles it sounds like you had no mods. The stock DeCarbons suck ***. Also, your ride height is WAY too low. So you are either slamming bump stops or have super stiff springs and shocks (of unkown brand). Those rims look larger too - larger = heavier. Upgraded rear too? (more unsprung weight) Lift it, use stock WS6 springs and Koni SAs with larger sidewalls and you'll see a world of difference. Unless you have SFCs. They seem to create a drum-like effect and channel more NVH into the cabin.
Also, a loose interior does not = lack of quality. That's a mis-conception. Just like the idea that Toyota is great quality, and automatically always better than GM. I've ridden in a co-workers Scion Tc many times (including today), and while the interior seems tight and quiet, it looks horribly cheap and is nowhere NEAR as nice a place to be as my 02 T/A WS6.
you 
04-03-2008, 06:30 PM
#66
I'm talking about the traction control system on these cars. While they both use Bosch electronics, BMWs DSC takes the whole system much further.
Using lateral and longitudinal sensors, steering angle sensor, and vehicle speed to make the car reacte far more advanced. Being able to correct the vehicles path, and stabilze the car in sudden reaction, and inclimate weather situations.
Since you seem knowledgable, you should know exactly what I'm talking about. And what the TCS system in the F body lacks. So I don't see where you get off correcting me on this.
Also, loose does equal lack of quality. I love how my rear sail panels are held to the body with a handfull of sheetmetal screws, and velcro!
As I said above, my car is lowered on LG coil overs, hypercoil springs, and everything is aluminum DA. The car is cross weighted and balanced, and has been setup by yours truly.
Are shop also races several ITS class cars, that we have built and setup in house. My car handles like it's on rails. Stock, was medicore at best. And as you said, De Carbons are garbage. The car simply rides rough, regardless. As it stands now, it's just a fair weather driver, and I'm use to all the noise!
I'm hardly "owned"
Using lateral and longitudinal sensors, steering angle sensor, and vehicle speed to make the car reacte far more advanced. Being able to correct the vehicles path, and stabilze the car in sudden reaction, and inclimate weather situations.
Since you seem knowledgable, you should know exactly what I'm talking about. And what the TCS system in the F body lacks. So I don't see where you get off correcting me on this.
Also, loose does equal lack of quality. I love how my rear sail panels are held to the body with a handfull of sheetmetal screws, and velcro!
As I said above, my car is lowered on LG coil overs, hypercoil springs, and everything is aluminum DA. The car is cross weighted and balanced, and has been setup by yours truly.
Are shop also races several ITS class cars, that we have built and setup in house. My car handles like it's on rails. Stock, was medicore at best. And as you said, De Carbons are garbage. The car simply rides rough, regardless. As it stands now, it's just a fair weather driver, and I'm use to all the noise!
I'm hardly "owned"
04-03-2008, 07:06 PM
#67
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Funny story, my car had a few rattles, but after my Koni install they coincidentally all went away... Weird...
Your car rattles because its too low, probably resting on the bump stops, and I shouldn't have to explain why that is bad. Raise it up, and with good springs rates it will keep you from hitting the bump stops so hard, and it will be less frequently. Make sure your shocks are not adjusted with too high of compression or too low of rebound dampening (this is the stock shocks problems).
My point I was bringing to you guys, was that all this stuff that GM is FINALLY trying to bring to the market, has been done for years by the others! They need to step up to the plate, because they are far far behind.
I'd love to see someone explain to me how the traction control in our 350HP cars is worth a ****. On the other hand, the DSC, ASR, and ABS systems of the BMWs are 10 fold better, in even the least powerfull of cars.
Now, the Corvette's TC and active handling on the other hand...
****, the Europeans were using disc brakes on virtually all their cars in the 70s. It took GM ******* 20 years to even figure that one out.
04-03-2008, 07:27 PM
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I'm talking about the traction control system on these cars. While they both use Bosch electronics, BMWs DSC takes the whole system much further.
Using lateral and longitudinal sensors, steering angle sensor, and vehicle speed to make the car reacte far more advanced. Being able to correct the vehicles path, and stabilze the car in sudden reaction, and inclimate weather situations.
Since you seem knowledgable, you should know exactly what I'm talking about. And what the TCS system in the F body lacks. So I don't see where you get off correcting me on this.
Using lateral and longitudinal sensors, steering angle sensor, and vehicle speed to make the car reacte far more advanced. Being able to correct the vehicles path, and stabilze the car in sudden reaction, and inclimate weather situations.
Since you seem knowledgable, you should know exactly what I'm talking about. And what the TCS system in the F body lacks. So I don't see where you get off correcting me on this.
That doesn't make it crap. Not even by a long shot. It still handles acceleration slip and braking slip in the same manner, still has electronic brake force distribution, and still even has some measure of stability control as a (potentially accidental) result. Case in point, I was messing around with the system, pushing it in the rain to see what it would do, and in one particular instance, I was mid-way through a left hander on an incline (going up in the direction I was turning), and I floored it, in 1st. I felt the wheels spin briefly, and the car started to slide, then it just STOPPED (sliding) and went in the direction I was pointing the front wheels. No drama, no shuddering or fighting, nothing. I didn't correct it, and it behaved like I was just driving normally. THAT is not a crap system. Especially when you consider it's some what deaf and blind when it comes to doing that sort of thing. It's really only _truly_ missing the ability to detect and prevent understeer, and isn't as well refined when stopping over-steer (though as just mentioned, it can do that).
Also, loose does equal lack of quality. I love how my rear sail panels are held to the body with a handfull of sheetmetal screws, and velcro!
F-Bodies aren't any of that. (racing and abuse aside) Nor are most GMs in fact.
And as JD is also trying to point out, the NVH that you hear is from your harsh suspension - first with DeCarbons, and now with your ride height/stiffness combo. It's just sending the shock into the cabin and rattling the interior, rather than being soaked up.
As I said above, my car is lowered on LG coil overs, hypercoil springs, and everything is aluminum DA. The car is cross weighted and balanced, and has been setup by yours truly.
Are shop also races several ITS class cars, that we have built and setup in house. My car handles like it's on rails. Stock, was medicore at best. And as you said, De Carbons are garbage. The car simply rides rough, regardless. As it stands now, it's just a fair weather driver, and I'm use to all the noise!
Are shop also races several ITS class cars, that we have built and setup in house. My car handles like it's on rails. Stock, was medicore at best. And as you said, De Carbons are garbage. The car simply rides rough, regardless. As it stands now, it's just a fair weather driver, and I'm use to all the noise!
I've done just that, stock WS6 springs, Koni SAs with the front lower perch/rear heater hose mod, a DA UMI PHB, some BFG g-Force tires in stock size (which are both gripper, and softer sidewalled than the stock GYs), and a Strano spec'd alignment. The car is amazing. The most I will do now is add some Strano sways, and probably bump rim size to 18 for looks, but I'm not lowering or stiffening it anymore, if I do, I'll end up in a ditch. Compliance is a good thing.
04-04-2008, 10:11 AM
#69
Right...safety, and performance. On cars they weighed half as much as ours at the time LOL.
It's about time GM figured this out. Throughout this thread I've said that over and over again. I'm happy for them!
The only reason I brought this all about, was because it was being compared directly to the 550i. It still has no where near any of the safety features. Other than the fact that they've FINALLY brought a decent MRS to the Pontiac line.
It's powerfull and it has 4 doors. That's about all it has in comparison to the BMW 5 IMO.
I don't need a lesson on how to make an fbody ride well. I'm perfectly capable of setting one up to corner on par with the BMWs I drive everyday. I'm no where close to hitting bump stops, becuase I don't have any. The car isn't as low as seen in the pictures. As well as it having been corner weight and balanced, springs are matched accordingly.
FYI, race tracks aren't smooth.
Last edited by BAD ASS TA WS6; 04-04-2008 at 10:18 AM.
04-04-2008, 10:55 AM
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Right...safety, and performance. On cars they weighed half as much as ours at the time LOL.
It's about time GM figured this out. Throughout this thread I've said that over and over again. I'm happy for them!
The only reason I brought this all about, was because it was being compared directly to the 550i. It still has no where near any of the safety features. Other than the fact that they've FINALLY brought a decent MRS to the Pontiac line.
It's powerfull and it has 4 doors. That's about all it has in comparison to the BMW 5 IMO.
I don't need a lesson on how to make an fbody ride well. I'm perfectly capable of setting one up to corner on par with the BMWs I drive everyday. I'm no where close to hitting bump stops, becuase I don't have any. The car isn't as low as seen in the pictures. As well as it having been corner weight and balanced, springs are matched accordingly.
FYI, race tracks aren't smooth.
It's about time GM figured this out. Throughout this thread I've said that over and over again. I'm happy for them!
The only reason I brought this all about, was because it was being compared directly to the 550i. It still has no where near any of the safety features. Other than the fact that they've FINALLY brought a decent MRS to the Pontiac line.
It's powerfull and it has 4 doors. That's about all it has in comparison to the BMW 5 IMO.
I don't need a lesson on how to make an fbody ride well. I'm perfectly capable of setting one up to corner on par with the BMWs I drive everyday. I'm no where close to hitting bump stops, becuase I don't have any. The car isn't as low as seen in the pictures. As well as it having been corner weight and balanced, springs are matched accordingly.
FYI, race tracks aren't smooth.
Your not going to win an argument with people on a GM board. I decided that a couple posts back not it's even worth the energy. As far as most people on here is concerned on here GM > ALL. Its just a different demographic of people.
04-04-2008, 12:05 PM
#71
That is true. But it's annoying to see some forms of ignorance, or just stubborness to acknowledge fact.
I'm pretty damned stubborn myself, but I respect all forms of technology and automotive design.
I love my car, but it's based off a chassis from 1982. Not much else I can say here that isn't self explanatory.
04-04-2008, 12:53 PM
#73
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Your high if you believe that. I work for Mercedes as a Technician and i will tell you there is more thought and build quality in one of our door's then there is in most of that G8. BMW is very similar to a Mercedes. Trust me i love my Gm Vettes, Trans Am's and Camaro's. But as far as overall package high line cars like Bmw and Mercedes are on a whole different level as far as quality and engineering go. Plus I worked at Disney as a valet for a couple years and have driven a lot of cars so i can speak from first hand experience in quality from ride to interior features, etc.
04-04-2008, 06:08 PM
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The reason you don't have cup holders is you buying a European car. In Europe they don't believe in drinking (non alcoholic) and driving. They believe that when your driving you should not be distracted.Its a culture thing. In a Mercedes SL they put the cup holders right over the command unit (stereo). The Germen's mentality is you stupid Americans want cup holders you'll pay for it, we will install them right over the $3,000 audio unit.As far as your door panels you will have to ask BAD *** TA WS6 but i know on a Mercedes your not getting the door panel off with anything but a plastic wedge after removing the bolts. While prying your going to hear some of the most uncomfortable popping a cracking you ever want to hear coming from a door panel. Shortly put they fit tight and are not going anywhere.
04-04-2008, 10:07 PM
#75
Christmas tree clips are normal on any auto manufacturer. Why don't you pull the door panel off that LT1. See if it's not broken by the time you get it off.
Your door panel is probably coming apart, becuase who ever had it off last, yanked it off, without the proper tools.
And as posted above, in Germany when driving, you're concentrating on DRIVING. Not talking on cell phones, and eating fast food garbage. Different society, no Dunkins, and Burger Kings.
I'm curious as to what 3 series you have, doesn't have a cupholder. E36+ ('92+)cars all have them. E30s had a dealer installed cup holder in front of the ash tray.
Your door panel is probably coming apart, becuase who ever had it off last, yanked it off, without the proper tools.
And as posted above, in Germany when driving, you're concentrating on DRIVING. Not talking on cell phones, and eating fast food garbage. Different society, no Dunkins, and Burger Kings.
I'm curious as to what 3 series you have, doesn't have a cupholder. E36+ ('92+)cars all have them. E30s had a dealer installed cup holder in front of the ash tray.
04-10-2008, 09:21 AM
#76
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Bad *** TA I don't think anyone would argue that a TA/Camaro is in the same league as a BMW but the G8 is a different story.
F-bodies are junk in all cases other then looks and acceleration from the factory. I have mine for cheap speed.
F-bodies are junk in all cases other then looks and acceleration from the factory. I have mine for cheap speed.
04-10-2008, 10:03 AM
#77
It's just like I said, GM is still not providing any news breaking technology with the G8. They did what they should have been doing 5 years ago. Which is offer an affording performance sedan, on their young/performance driven Pontiac line.
The MRS in the car is finally on par. But nothing else about the car is new in terms of technology. That's all I'm saying.
As opposed the the fiber optics driven components in the BMWs, with more technology in the seats than the rest of the G8.
Not comparable....
The MRS in the car is finally on par. But nothing else about the car is new in terms of technology. That's all I'm saying.
As opposed the the fiber optics driven components in the BMWs, with more technology in the seats than the rest of the G8.
Not comparable....
04-10-2008, 12:15 PM
#78
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Christmas tree clips are normal on any auto manufacturer. Why don't you pull the door panel off that LT1. See if it's not broken by the time you get it off.
Your door panel is probably coming apart, becuase who ever had it off last, yanked it off, without the proper tools.
And as posted above, in Germany when driving, you're concentrating on DRIVING. Not talking on cell phones, and eating fast food garbage. Different society, no Dunkins, and Burger Kings.
I'm curious as to what 3 series you have, doesn't have a cupholder. E36+ ('92+)cars all have them. E30s had a dealer installed cup holder in front of the ash tray.
Your door panel is probably coming apart, becuase who ever had it off last, yanked it off, without the proper tools.
And as posted above, in Germany when driving, you're concentrating on DRIVING. Not talking on cell phones, and eating fast food garbage. Different society, no Dunkins, and Burger Kings.
I'm curious as to what 3 series you have, doesn't have a cupholder. E36+ ('92+)cars all have them. E30s had a dealer installed cup holder in front of the ash tray.
I agree I am sure whoever took the doors off previously on my BMW did it wrong I am sure. But I have to say that the bracket that is attached to the door panel that holds the clips separates from the door. ( a known problem on bmw forums) I am driving a E36 318IS, I know you can buy a console that has a cupholder, but that just flat out sucks. Especially when they are at BMW prices.
I dont think wanting a cupholder is a stupid American thing. I just want a cup of GD coffee in the morning while going to work. If your driving a standard tranny like mine, then your ******* juggling your **** while driving and trying to take a sip. Not safe. Plain and simple every car should have one, I dont think it compromises the design by any means.
Last edited by 97LT1; 04-10-2008 at 12:21 PM.
04-10-2008, 01:45 PM
#79
You can pull that door panel off and epoxy that plastic piece at the top.
Slide off the door handle cover, the two plastic covers under the door handle grip (two torx screws behind them) And pop off the lower portion of the door panel. You have to be carefull as the lower plastic cubbys in the door will break if you pry off them.
Then just epoxy the black plastic clip at the top of the panel back together. You can visually see where it was originally attached.
Loose/broken stuff like that pisses me off. But it's an easy fix if you have standard tools.
And honestly I have a cup holder setup out of a parts car out back that should fit your console. PM me if you want it.
Slide off the door handle cover, the two plastic covers under the door handle grip (two torx screws behind them) And pop off the lower portion of the door panel. You have to be carefull as the lower plastic cubbys in the door will break if you pry off them.
Then just epoxy the black plastic clip at the top of the panel back together. You can visually see where it was originally attached.
Loose/broken stuff like that pisses me off. But it's an easy fix if you have standard tools.
And honestly I have a cup holder setup out of a parts car out back that should fit your console. PM me if you want it.
04-11-2008, 02:18 PM
#80
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It's just like I said, GM is still not providing any news breaking technology with the G8. They did what they should have been doing 5 years ago. Which is offer an affording performance sedan, on their young/performance driven Pontiac line.
The MRS in the car is finally on par. But nothing else about the car is new in terms of technology. That's all I'm saying.
As opposed the the fiber optics driven components in the BMWs, with more technology in the seats than the rest of the G8.
Not comparable....
The MRS in the car is finally on par. But nothing else about the car is new in terms of technology. That's all I'm saying.
As opposed the the fiber optics driven components in the BMWs, with more technology in the seats than the rest of the G8.
Not comparable....
You remain fixated on this notion that 1, all 3 and 5 series are somehow "breaking new ground" (which is BS), and that unless a car does that, it's not "quality" (which is even more BS).
If you can do more with less, that's quality. If you can make it last, that's quality. The difference between the G8 and any BMW is in the buyer's mind. And from you we see the power of predjudice. BTW, the G8 is NOT GM North America. You reference your F-Body and other Pontiacs a lot in your argument, but they don't relate at all.