Thank You Phil Thomas
Thank You Phil Thomas Phil, I would like to publicly thank you for selling me a 4.00" crank that was slightly bent and cracked on two journals. After purchasing every single part of my 440 LSX brand new, I trusted Phil's word (along with his feedback)that his crankshaft (which was out of his black turbo mustang)was in good condition. This was not the case. After using my local machine shop to assemble the shortblock, the motor lasted 2 dyno pulls due to a loss of oil pressure. I then was in contact with Ken from Eastside Performance who thought the lifters were being pushed too far out of the bore due to the size of camshaft. I then ordered a set a Jessel Linkbar lifters ($1500). After Ken assembled the motor, we encountered the EXACT problem. I have since brought the motor back and BINGO the machinist that Eastside uses magnafluxed the crankshaft revealing that my assumptions of a bad crank were to be true. I know this was over a year ago and Phil already said he would not compensate me. Again thank you Phil for making me spend about $10,000 more then I had to on this motor, just so you could have a few hundred bucks in your pocket. Phil if you would like to contact the machinist feel free to private message me and I will give you his phone number.
Last edited by SSPerformance; May 13, 2010 at 07:17 PM.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,484
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From: Cecil County Raceway!!!
so your local machine shop chose to NOT CHECK THE INTEGRITY OF THE USED CRANK before assembling the motor??? Had they done this and showed flaws I'm sure Phil would've taken it back before you installed it and ran it in your motor
Phil, I would like to publicly thank you for selling me a 4.00" crank that was slightly bent and cracked on two journals. After purchasing every single part of my 440 LSX brand new, I trusted Phil's word (along with his feedback)that his crankshaft (which was out of his black turbo mustang)was in good condition. This was not the case. After using my local machine shop to assemble the shortblock, the motor lasted 2 dyno pulls due to a loss of oil pressure. I then was in contact with Ken from Eastside Performance who thought the lifters were being pushed too far out of the bore due to the size of camshaft. I then ordered a set a Jessel Linkbar lifters ($1500). After Ken assembled the motor, we encountered the EXACT problem. I have since brought the motor back and BINGO the machinist that Eastside uses magnafluxed the crankshaft revealing that my assumptions of a bad crank were to be true. I know this was over a year ago and Phil already said he would not compensate me. Again thank you Phil for making me spend about $10,000 more then I had to on this motor, just so you could have a few hundred bucks in your pocket. Phil if you would like to contact the machinist feel free to private message me and I will give you his phone number.
When exactly did I sell you the crank? If you don't have the date I can look it up for you. If you had called me when you received the crank and had an issue with it over 2 years ago I would have been more than happy to refund you the money on it. Now you've had the motor up and running for 2 years, motor has been rebuilt at least 2 times since then and you want me to buy it back....Sorry you purchased a used automotive part, if your engine shop neglected to check it, its on you guys. A quality shop will check a used crank the same way they check a new crank.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 8,484
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From: Cecil County Raceway!!!
I'm not siding with Phil...Just pointing it out as I see it...
I fail to see why it doesn't make the shop responsible...even new cranks can have issues and should always be measured and verified...they CHOSE to not do this...
its kinda like buying wheels, alot of places will take them back for whatever reason but if you mount tires on em...they are yours...
why should a crank be any different? Since you ran it, there is no way of knowing if the crank was already damaged or due to something that happened in your motor. Why should Phil be responsible for that?
I fail to see why it doesn't make the shop responsible...even new cranks can have issues and should always be measured and verified...they CHOSE to not do this...
its kinda like buying wheels, alot of places will take them back for whatever reason but if you mount tires on em...they are yours...
why should a crank be any different? Since you ran it, there is no way of knowing if the crank was already damaged or due to something that happened in your motor. Why should Phil be responsible for that?
Fireball at this point I realize I will not be getting a dime from Phil. Yes, they chose not to check the integrity of the crank but, does that make the machine shop responsible? No, it doesn't. The bottom line is your friend Phil(who I expect you to side with on this matter) sold me a crank that was not in working condition. Little did I know this was the case. On top of the $10,000 of extra money I have into this motor, the frustration of it all almost had me sell the car. A reputable shop(Eastside Performance) then built the motor and didn't check the crank, so is it there fault too? For added information eastside once had the LSX nitrous record so I consider them extremely reputable.
Honestly Phil, I do not have the exact date written down. At this point it is simply a waste of time to lookup the date since you told me on numerous occasions that you will not issue any sort of refund. Why exactly did you change crankshafts? Was the motor that the crankshaft came out of in working condition? Do you see where i'm getting at? You are correct the motor has been rebuilt 2 times with a TOTAL OF 4 DYNO PULLS. I really thought with someone with the prestiege of yourself would realize what happend and admit any wrongdoing. Correct me if i'm wrong but I asked for a partial refund something like $500 not the full amount paid. I guess thats out of the budget considering you own a 7 second radial car
Honestly Phil, I do not have the exact date written down. At this point it is simply a waste of time to lookup the date since you told me on numerous occasions that you will not issue any sort of refund. Why exactly did you change crankshafts? Was the motor that the crankshaft came out of in working condition? Do you see where i'm getting at? You are correct the motor has been rebuilt 2 times with a TOTAL OF 4 DYNO PULLS. I really thought with someone with the prestiege of yourself would realize what happend and admit any wrongdoing. Correct me if i'm wrong but I asked for a partial refund something like $500 not the full amount paid. I guess thats out of the budget considering you own a 7 second radial car
8 second mod
iTrader: (37)
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 17,879
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From: East Side Performance! mASShole
just for what its worth, i would have had the crank checked new or used but i have been talking with SS about all his issues and i will say from what i know my best guess would be the crank was junk before it was installed.
i dont want to get involved in anything here between anyone, but my best guess is that.
i did mention that the crank should be checked before he re did the motor and i would have thought east side would have done so, but im guessing the machine shop they used dropped the ball and didnt check it or lied about checking it.
i dont want to get involved in anything here between anyone, but my best guess is that.
i did mention that the crank should be checked before he re did the motor and i would have thought east side would have done so, but im guessing the machine shop they used dropped the ball and didnt check it or lied about checking it.
I'm not siding with Phil...Just pointing it out as I see it...
I fail to see why it doesn't make the shop responsible...even new cranks can have issues and should always be measured and verified...they CHOSE to not do this...
its kinda like buying wheels, alot of places will take them back for whatever reason but if you mount tires on em...they are yours...
why should a crank be any different? Since you ran it, there is no way of knowing if the crank was already damaged or due to something that happened in your motor. Why should Phil be responsible for that?
I fail to see why it doesn't make the shop responsible...even new cranks can have issues and should always be measured and verified...they CHOSE to not do this...
its kinda like buying wheels, alot of places will take them back for whatever reason but if you mount tires on em...they are yours...
why should a crank be any different? Since you ran it, there is no way of knowing if the crank was already damaged or due to something that happened in your motor. Why should Phil be responsible for that?
You are right my 5xx hp 440 LSX must have damaged the crank from 4 dyno pulls, it's impossible his 1200+ hp mustang did so Again I can have all of my friends post in here taking my side but im not asking them. THE BOTTOM LINE IS HE SOLD ME A CRANK THAT IS CRACKED IN 2 JOURNALSjust for what its worth, i would have had the crank checked new or used but i have been talking with SS about all his issues and i will say from what i know my best guess would be the crank was junk before it was installed.
i dont want to get involved in anything here between anyone, but my best guess is that.
i did mention that the crank should be checked before he re did the motor and i would have thought east side would have done so, but im guessing the machine shop they used dropped the ball and didnt check it or lied about checking it.
i dont want to get involved in anything here between anyone, but my best guess is that.
i did mention that the crank should be checked before he re did the motor and i would have thought east side would have done so, but im guessing the machine shop they used dropped the ball and didnt check it or lied about checking it.
Last edited by SSPerformance; May 14, 2010 at 10:29 AM.
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Honestly Phil, I do not have the exact date written down. At this point it is simply a waste of time to lookup the date since you told me on numerous occasions that you will not issue any sort of refund. Why exactly did you change crankshafts? Was the motor that the crankshaft came out of in working condition? Do you see where i'm getting at? You are correct the motor has been rebuilt 2 times with a TOTAL OF 4 DYNO PULLS. I really thought with someone with the prestiege of yourself would realize what happend and admit any wrongdoing. Correct me if i'm wrong but I asked for a partial refund something like $500 not the full amount paid. I guess thats out of the budget considering you own a 7 second radial car
The reason we changed it was when I talked to my engine builder and told him my goals had changed from a mid 8 second setup to a bottom 7 second setup he said you need to get a real crank, something with center counterweights and billet. Its no secret the Eagle wont handle 2000hp and thats why we swapped it out.
How does my mustang have anything to do with this situtation? Because I do 100% of the labor and fabrication doesn't mean that I've got normal money tied up into the project.
Ok now you said your peace, time to lock it.
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Verdad Gallardo I put myself in your shoes...I buy a crank, I am going to get it checked weather it had no miles or 100k. ANY reputable machine shop will tell you the same thing and check the crank. Now if the crank had been checked and had issues back 2 years ago when you purchased it I would have had no problems giving you a refund and taking it back. The crank was checked here before I sold it and my local machine shop said it was fine. If I purchased a crank and failed to have it inspected in a timely fashion, its my problem. If I remember correctly you only paid 550 + shipping but that was 2 years ago in the middle of 2008 so I could be wrong. After 2 years who really knows whats happened.
The reason we changed it was when I talked to my engine builder and told him my goals had changed from a mid 8 second setup to a bottom 7 second setup he said you need to get a real crank, something with center counterweights and billet. Its no secret the Eagle wont handle 2000hp and thats why we swapped it out.
How does my mustang have anything to do with this situtation? Because I do 100% of the labor and fabrication doesn't mean that I've got normal money tied up into the project.
Ok now you said your peace, time to lock it.
The reason we changed it was when I talked to my engine builder and told him my goals had changed from a mid 8 second setup to a bottom 7 second setup he said you need to get a real crank, something with center counterweights and billet. Its no secret the Eagle wont handle 2000hp and thats why we swapped it out.
How does my mustang have anything to do with this situtation? Because I do 100% of the labor and fabrication doesn't mean that I've got normal money tied up into the project.
Ok now you said your peace, time to lock it.
This is a shitty situation. If Phil implied the crank was checked (I can't imagine Charles not asking) then really IMO I think Phil should share some of this responsibility.
On the other hand a machine shop/performance shop should have the crank tested IMO before installing it in a motor.
Like I said, shitty situation. I personally would not check a crank I was selling before selling it unless the buyer insisted on it. I sold a stock crank years back when I built my 383-few weeks later buyer wrote and said the crank was bad-scratched etc.
I sent him the money back-no question.
I would like to see Phil refund Charles 1/2 the $$ since they both have points on the matter. C'mon guys-this is an easy fix.
On the other hand a machine shop/performance shop should have the crank tested IMO before installing it in a motor.
Like I said, shitty situation. I personally would not check a crank I was selling before selling it unless the buyer insisted on it. I sold a stock crank years back when I built my 383-few weeks later buyer wrote and said the crank was bad-scratched etc.
I sent him the money back-no question.
I would like to see Phil refund Charles 1/2 the $$ since they both have points on the matter. C'mon guys-this is an easy fix.
Since your asking what people think....
Phil may of said he checked it but whats the worth? Use Phil's up front word as a deciding factor to make up your mind whether you'll purchase the item or not. Aside from that who gives a rats *** about what Phil thinks, even if it came from my best buddy I wouldnt trust them worth a damn, it's my money and my responsibilty to have things checked once the part gets to me/after it leaves Phil's hands........before it is mated with anything else.
If the part came from Phil....you had it checked and it was no good, case closed you got your cash back.
You take two years to check the part after it was in a motor that went south; who knows what happened along the way. You cant honestly answer that yourself because you never had it checked before the item was used.
It's all about liability, you should of had the part checked yourself before it was used. Your pissed because it seems like the item may of been bad before you used it and you may be right but you may be wrong, without proof you dont have a leg to stand on. Once you installed that part without checking it first you voided any kind of chance you had of a return.
Phil may of said he checked it but whats the worth? Use Phil's up front word as a deciding factor to make up your mind whether you'll purchase the item or not. Aside from that who gives a rats *** about what Phil thinks, even if it came from my best buddy I wouldnt trust them worth a damn, it's my money and my responsibilty to have things checked once the part gets to me/after it leaves Phil's hands........before it is mated with anything else.
If the part came from Phil....you had it checked and it was no good, case closed you got your cash back.
You take two years to check the part after it was in a motor that went south; who knows what happened along the way. You cant honestly answer that yourself because you never had it checked before the item was used.
It's all about liability, you should of had the part checked yourself before it was used. Your pissed because it seems like the item may of been bad before you used it and you may be right but you may be wrong, without proof you dont have a leg to stand on. Once you installed that part without checking it first you voided any kind of chance you had of a return.
8 second mod
iTrader: (37)
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: East Side Performance! mASShole
Since your asking what people think....
Phil may of said he checked it but whats the worth? Use Phil's up front word as a deciding factor to make up your mind whether you'll purchase the item or not. Aside from that who gives a rats *** about what Phil thinks, even if it came from my best buddy I wouldnt trust them worth a damn, it's my money and my responsibilty to have things checked once the part gets to me/after it leaves Phil's hands........before it is mated with anything else.
If the part came from Phil....you had it checked and it was no good, case closed you got your cash back.
You take two years to check the part after it was in a motor that went south; who knows what happened along the way. You cant honestly answer that yourself because you never had it checked before the item was used.
It's all about liability, you should of had the part checked yourself before it was used. Your pissed because it seems like the item may of been bad before you used it and you may be right but you may be wrong, without proof you dont have a leg to stand on. Once you installed that part without checking it first you voided any kind of chance you had of a return.
Phil may of said he checked it but whats the worth? Use Phil's up front word as a deciding factor to make up your mind whether you'll purchase the item or not. Aside from that who gives a rats *** about what Phil thinks, even if it came from my best buddy I wouldnt trust them worth a damn, it's my money and my responsibilty to have things checked once the part gets to me/after it leaves Phil's hands........before it is mated with anything else.
If the part came from Phil....you had it checked and it was no good, case closed you got your cash back.
You take two years to check the part after it was in a motor that went south; who knows what happened along the way. You cant honestly answer that yourself because you never had it checked before the item was used.
It's all about liability, you should of had the part checked yourself before it was used. Your pissed because it seems like the item may of been bad before you used it and you may be right but you may be wrong, without proof you dont have a leg to stand on. Once you installed that part without checking it first you voided any kind of chance you had of a return.
it then went back together and wiped out the same bearings. i have been talking with charlie for a while about this. probably before he even had the motor, he had spoken to me on my set up.
like i said before from what i know i think yes the crank was bad right off the bat, but i think it should have been checked off the bat as well.
hell, my motor was running great when i pulled it apart, but i will still check the block and crank before i put it back together. some do it, some dont.
Could the crank have been damaged in shipping? I'm not saying it did happen, but it's a possiblity.
I know where I stand when it comes to QA/QC work as that's what I do for a living. Trust no one, only data.
If I were to buy a used internal engine part, I'd have it checked prior to installing it. I'd have valvesprings pressures checked, any rotating item from clutches to wheels to driveshafts checked for balance and damage. If I bought a cam, I'd have it cam doctored unless you sent a cam card with a serial number that matched the serial number on the cam itself and even then, a cam doctor is helpful to make sure it was actually ground according to specs. Why go to that extreme? Because I trust no-one but my own QA assessment.
So it comes down to economics. The crank was $550 used plus shipping, so we'll say an even $600. Add in the cost of having it checked and verified and then see if you come out ahead of buying new with a warranty.
It sucks, but it's the risk of buying used. If you buy a used car that has no warranty, and it blows up in 2 months, guess what, you're SOL.
That's my take and I don't know any one in this thread at all other than I bought a hood from Fireball.
I know where I stand when it comes to QA/QC work as that's what I do for a living. Trust no one, only data.
If I were to buy a used internal engine part, I'd have it checked prior to installing it. I'd have valvesprings pressures checked, any rotating item from clutches to wheels to driveshafts checked for balance and damage. If I bought a cam, I'd have it cam doctored unless you sent a cam card with a serial number that matched the serial number on the cam itself and even then, a cam doctor is helpful to make sure it was actually ground according to specs. Why go to that extreme? Because I trust no-one but my own QA assessment.
So it comes down to economics. The crank was $550 used plus shipping, so we'll say an even $600. Add in the cost of having it checked and verified and then see if you come out ahead of buying new with a warranty.
It sucks, but it's the risk of buying used. If you buy a used car that has no warranty, and it blows up in 2 months, guess what, you're SOL.
That's my take and I don't know any one in this thread at all other than I bought a hood from Fireball.
For an opinion. Sucks that the crank is bad.Sucks even worse that the transaction was years ago and from what I get the crank was never checked when building the motor.
It's a lose lose situation for all involved. Due to so many variables I wouldn't post about it here.
It's a lose lose situation for all involved. Due to so many variables I wouldn't post about it here.
This is a shitty situation. If Phil implied the crank was checked (I can't imagine Charles not asking) then really IMO I think Phil should share some of this responsibility.
On the other hand a machine shop/performance shop should have the crank tested IMO before installing it in a motor.
Like I said, shitty situation. I personally would not check a crank I was selling before selling it unless the buyer insisted on it. I sold a stock crank years back when I built my 383-few weeks later buyer wrote and said the crank was bad-scratched etc.
I sent him the money back-no question.
I would like to see Phil refund Charles 1/2 the $$ since they both have points on the matter. C'mon guys-this is an easy fix.
On the other hand a machine shop/performance shop should have the crank tested IMO before installing it in a motor.
Like I said, shitty situation. I personally would not check a crank I was selling before selling it unless the buyer insisted on it. I sold a stock crank years back when I built my 383-few weeks later buyer wrote and said the crank was bad-scratched etc.
I sent him the money back-no question.
I would like to see Phil refund Charles 1/2 the $$ since they both have points on the matter. C'mon guys-this is an easy fix.
just so you know the motor was put together correctly and was only run on the dyno 2 runs and wiped out the bearings right away. that said i figure it to be bad from the start but yes it should have been checked.
it then went back together and wiped out the same bearings. i have been talking with charlie for a while about this. probably before he even had the motor, he had spoken to me on my set up.
like i said before from what i know i think yes the crank was bad right off the bat, but i think it should have been checked off the bat as well.
hell, my motor was running great when i pulled it apart, but i will still check the block and crank before i put it back together. some do it, some dont.
it then went back together and wiped out the same bearings. i have been talking with charlie for a while about this. probably before he even had the motor, he had spoken to me on my set up.
like i said before from what i know i think yes the crank was bad right off the bat, but i think it should have been checked off the bat as well.
hell, my motor was running great when i pulled it apart, but i will still check the block and crank before i put it back together. some do it, some dont.
Could the crank have been damaged in shipping? I'm not saying it did happen, but it's a possiblity.
I know where I stand when it comes to QA/QC work as that's what I do for a living. Trust no one, only data.
If I were to buy a used internal engine part, I'd have it checked prior to installing it. I'd have valvesprings pressures checked, any rotating item from clutches to wheels to driveshafts checked for balance and damage. If I bought a cam, I'd have it cam doctored unless you sent a cam card with a serial number that matched the serial number on the cam itself and even then, a cam doctor is helpful to make sure it was actually ground according to specs. Why go to that extreme? Because I trust no-one but my own QA assessment.
So it comes down to economics. The crank was $550 used plus shipping, so we'll say an even $600. Add in the cost of having it checked and verified and then see if you come out ahead of buying new with a warranty.
It sucks, but it's the risk of buying used. If you buy a used car that has no warranty, and it blows up in 2 months, guess what, you're SOL.
That's my take and I don't know any one in this thread at all other than I bought a hood from Fireball.
I know where I stand when it comes to QA/QC work as that's what I do for a living. Trust no one, only data.
If I were to buy a used internal engine part, I'd have it checked prior to installing it. I'd have valvesprings pressures checked, any rotating item from clutches to wheels to driveshafts checked for balance and damage. If I bought a cam, I'd have it cam doctored unless you sent a cam card with a serial number that matched the serial number on the cam itself and even then, a cam doctor is helpful to make sure it was actually ground according to specs. Why go to that extreme? Because I trust no-one but my own QA assessment.
So it comes down to economics. The crank was $550 used plus shipping, so we'll say an even $600. Add in the cost of having it checked and verified and then see if you come out ahead of buying new with a warranty.
It sucks, but it's the risk of buying used. If you buy a used car that has no warranty, and it blows up in 2 months, guess what, you're SOL.
That's my take and I don't know any one in this thread at all other than I bought a hood from Fireball.
It does suck that the crank was bad. Honestly if this were a 402/408 it wouldn't phase me. The fact is that due to Phil selling me a bad crank and me having an extra $10,000 into it does leave a sour taste in my mouth. I agree it is a lose lose situation and this is why I am only asking for a partial refund. I believe it's the right thing to do.
C'mon Phil. You can't just wash your hands totally on this, I really don't understand why you would want to anyway.
You know Phil, you have to understand too that we all follow your builds and look foward to your input on threads etc. you're a popular guy.
If you say to a buyer, "I had the crank checked" or even hinted that the crank is good, people are gonna believe you. I would beleive you.
You have to take some responsibility here Phil, IMO, you definately do.
If he had the crank checked out and it was bad you would have not been able to sell it for anything. It would be worth zero. Charles is not a liar that's for sure, if he says he verified the crank was bad then that shoul be that. His power level did not cause the damamge on that crank.
If you meet 1/2 way you still made $$$ on a bad crank. Charles did you a favor so to speak by not checking it out. Bottom line-you're still making money on a bad part.
Meet him 1/2 way.
You know Phil, you have to understand too that we all follow your builds and look foward to your input on threads etc. you're a popular guy.
If you say to a buyer, "I had the crank checked" or even hinted that the crank is good, people are gonna believe you. I would beleive you.
You have to take some responsibility here Phil, IMO, you definately do.
If he had the crank checked out and it was bad you would have not been able to sell it for anything. It would be worth zero. Charles is not a liar that's for sure, if he says he verified the crank was bad then that shoul be that. His power level did not cause the damamge on that crank.
If you meet 1/2 way you still made $$$ on a bad crank. Charles did you a favor so to speak by not checking it out. Bottom line-you're still making money on a bad part.
Meet him 1/2 way.
Noyzee - I know what your saying, what I'm getting at is the fact that it wasnt spec'd out before it was used is really really really shooting yourself in the foot. Even if the crank was bad from Phil (maybe it was) you've got to cover your *** and do something like have it spec'd to prove that your starting with a good crank or not even bother with it and get a refund.
The fact that Phil said it was checked kind of covers his *** even if all logic proves otherwise. If Phil had it checked and he can get the spec sheet from the shop that did it maybe that will clear some of this up. Do they print something out with the spec's when you have a crank spec'd?
The fact that Phil said it was checked kind of covers his *** even if all logic proves otherwise. If Phil had it checked and he can get the spec sheet from the shop that did it maybe that will clear some of this up. Do they print something out with the spec's when you have a crank spec'd?
How well can a motor be put together by a shop that doesn't check a used crank? You guys can guess and think and "know" that a crank was bad before install but if it wasn't checked and verified as bad than you are SOL. Sorry about the situation. If nothing else this will serve as a reminder to others to always check out parts before use in a timely fashion.
Larry
Larry