Newbie with a WS.6
#41
I forgot.. then save more money because with those miles, those mods and your right foot it shouldn't be more than a couple years before she starts getting a little tired. So spend another few grand and get her rebuilt with a cam, springs etc, a little head work, and supporting bolt ons to finish it off. Then you are set. Crap!!! Something else I forgot. When you do 5,6,7, and 8 above go for the gears too. 3.73 s should do. I think anything more is just more wear and tear on the drivetrain and more stress on the rear. Not to mention you would always be shifting. rr shift, rrr shift, rrrr shift.. know what i mean?? more shifts = more missed shifts. lol
1) I don't care what any dealer told you, if that car had drag radials and saw a ton of track time, thats not the original rear. Simply stated if you run the car hard (street or track) with a 6 speed the rear WILL eventually break. Its not a matter of IF, but rather WHEN. Autos have constant pressure going to the rear, while the 6 speeds have a huge amount of force thrown at it between every shift.
2) 4.10 is not over kill for a 6 speed. My highway mileage is still 26-30 depending on if i get on it hard. You will be sorely disappointed with the change from a 3.42 to 3.73. If you don't go 4.10's, you might as well just leave it be.
#42
You must have an A4 right? because if you had an M6, you would know two things...
1) I don't care what any dealer told you, if that car had drag radials and saw a ton of track time, thats not the original rear. Simply stated if you run the car hard (street or track) with a 6 speed the rear WILL eventually break. Its not a matter of IF, but rather WHEN. Autos have constant pressure going to the rear, while the 6 speeds have a huge amount of force thrown at it between every shift.
2) 4.10 is not over kill for a 6 speed. My highway mileage is still 26-30 depending on if i get on it hard. You will be sorely disappointed with the change from a 3.42 to 3.73. If you don't go 4.10's, you might as well just leave it be.
1) I don't care what any dealer told you, if that car had drag radials and saw a ton of track time, thats not the original rear. Simply stated if you run the car hard (street or track) with a 6 speed the rear WILL eventually break. Its not a matter of IF, but rather WHEN. Autos have constant pressure going to the rear, while the 6 speeds have a huge amount of force thrown at it between every shift.
2) 4.10 is not over kill for a 6 speed. My highway mileage is still 26-30 depending on if i get on it hard. You will be sorely disappointed with the change from a 3.42 to 3.73. If you don't go 4.10's, you might as well just leave it be.
Also borrowing a Dremel and porting your throttle body would be good. Also I would look into a ram air setup.
#43
You must have an A4 right? because if you had an M6, you would know two things...
1) I don't care what any dealer told you, if that car had drag radials and saw a ton of track time, thats not the original rear. Simply stated if you run the car hard (street or track) with a 6 speed the rear WILL eventually break. Its not a matter of IF, but rather WHEN. Autos have constant pressure going to the rear, while the 6 speeds have a huge amount of force thrown at it between every shift.
2) 4.10 is not over kill for a 6 speed. My highway mileage is still 26-30 depending on if i get on it hard. You will be sorely disappointed with the change from a 3.42 to 3.73. If you don't go 4.10's, you might as well just leave it be.
1) I don't care what any dealer told you, if that car had drag radials and saw a ton of track time, thats not the original rear. Simply stated if you run the car hard (street or track) with a 6 speed the rear WILL eventually break. Its not a matter of IF, but rather WHEN. Autos have constant pressure going to the rear, while the 6 speeds have a huge amount of force thrown at it between every shift.
2) 4.10 is not over kill for a 6 speed. My highway mileage is still 26-30 depending on if i get on it hard. You will be sorely disappointed with the change from a 3.42 to 3.73. If you don't go 4.10's, you might as well just leave it be.
With that said I don't know where you get that the car had a "ton of track time". If I posted that I must have been really tired cuz the car hasn't been to the track that I know of. It has, however been raced several times with the stickies on the street. The rear in this car may eventually break but not necessarily on my brother since he will likely never get it into the 11's or run it on anything other than decent street tires.
As far as gear selection, I'm happy for you that you have the perfect set-up and have it all figured out But realize it's a personal choice. I know my brother personally and have my own opinion of what he might like best and am sure that I'm in a better position to know than you. What you call "not overkill" I call irritating and not worth the minimal gains when considering the drawbacks. I advised the small bump in gears because he will get a small to moderate cam one day and it will be just enough to work in tandem with a good tune to make for nice drivability afterwards without hurting the gas mileage or adding much wear and tear to the engine.
Remember that he won't care about getting every last hp or last tenth out of his car. He wants to enjoy it. He's not the competitive type. I kept all that in mind before giving my advice.
Tony, I told you there is always one or two. Chin up, Head down Brother.
Last edited by prokilllsx; 02-12-2010 at 03:36 PM. Reason: forgot something
#44
#45
Yup, knew that sorry. I was thinkin about my 98 Formula with A4. I still like 3.73s.
Still, a man on a budget spending thousands of dollars to put a rear-end in a 12 second DD that is going to be pampered is like buying flood insurance when you live on a mountain.
Can he break it? Yes. Will he? Not likely. And if he does then would be a good time to decide if he can spend a fortune on a stronger rear or if he'd rather just not repeat whatever he did to break the stock one.
Look at all the cars in the classifieds with the best of everything. Those guys spend 10, 20, and sometimes 30,000 dollars to extract maximum horsepower or e.t.s from their rides and then go broke or have a change in life circumstances that dictates the need to sell their car for half of what they have in it.
don't fix what ain't broken.
Still, a man on a budget spending thousands of dollars to put a rear-end in a 12 second DD that is going to be pampered is like buying flood insurance when you live on a mountain.
Can he break it? Yes. Will he? Not likely. And if he does then would be a good time to decide if he can spend a fortune on a stronger rear or if he'd rather just not repeat whatever he did to break the stock one.
Look at all the cars in the classifieds with the best of everything. Those guys spend 10, 20, and sometimes 30,000 dollars to extract maximum horsepower or e.t.s from their rides and then go broke or have a change in life circumstances that dictates the need to sell their car for half of what they have in it.
don't fix what ain't broken.
#46
1. FORGET THE REAR END UNTIL AND UNLESS IT BREAKS! Reasons... The car has undergone similar use for 128,000 miles and has had DRAG RADIALS on it for the last 15,000 miles and it checked out great at the dealer inspection. It will not receive anywhere near the punishment from you that it has already endured. The street tires you are putting on it will not stress the rear-end nearly as much at 400 hp as it already has been stressed by it's current hp level when the power was being layed down via super stickies!
2. You already have a lid. I don't know how good it is but with the minimal differences in hp between aftermarkets it would likely be money better spent somewhere else.
SLOTTED AND DOTTED BRO, ONLY WAY TO GO!
4. Mild Suspension upgrades. You have a decent set-up with the ws6 package that should easily meet your needs unless you have a road-racing habit I don't know about. The dealer inspection revealed that the entire suspension is in "great shape" so You may just wanna consider poly bushings and one or two minor things that will "slightly" improve traction. Remember that this will be your fun car and not you RACE car.
Ok. so this is what i have in mind for my start of the build. i took a lot of advice from all of you and i think this is probably the best way for me to start off after just purchasing the 2000 Trans am.
1 x UMI Lower Control Arms Rear (Tubular Non-Adjustable)
1 x UMI Panhard Rod (On-Car Adjustable) Poly Ends
1 x UMI Lower Control Arm Relocation Brackets - Bolt-In
1 x UMI Front Sway Bar 35mm
1 x UMI Rear Sway Bar 22mm
1 x UMI Torque Arm Non-Adjustable (Transmission Mounted)
1 x UMI Shock Tower Brace (Chrome Moly)
1 x BMR Spring Kit 1" Drop (Front & Rear Springs)
1 x SLP Smooth Bellow (98-02 Camaro/Firebird)
1 x Strange Pro-Street Gears 3.73 Ratio (7.5" 10 Bolt)
1 x ARP Pressure Plate Bolt Kit
1 x GM LS7 Clutch
1 x GM LS7-LS2 Flywheel
1 x DynoMax Bullet Muffler 3" Inlet-16.5" Long
1 x PaceSetter LS1 Off Road Y-Pipe
1 x PaceSetter LS1 Long Tube Headers Coated 00-02
(AIR/EGR) (includes NGK TR5 sparkplugs / MSD wires.)
looks like my total for all of this is coming to about $2,650.00. that seem about right guys?
1 x UMI Lower Control Arms Rear (Tubular Non-Adjustable)
1 x UMI Panhard Rod (On-Car Adjustable) Poly Ends
1 x UMI Lower Control Arm Relocation Brackets - Bolt-In
1 x UMI Front Sway Bar 35mm
1 x UMI Rear Sway Bar 22mm
1 x UMI Torque Arm Non-Adjustable (Transmission Mounted)
1 x UMI Shock Tower Brace (Chrome Moly)
1 x BMR Spring Kit 1" Drop (Front & Rear Springs)
1 x SLP Smooth Bellow (98-02 Camaro/Firebird)
1 x Strange Pro-Street Gears 3.73 Ratio (7.5" 10 Bolt)
1 x ARP Pressure Plate Bolt Kit
1 x GM LS7 Clutch
1 x GM LS7-LS2 Flywheel
1 x DynoMax Bullet Muffler 3" Inlet-16.5" Long
1 x PaceSetter LS1 Off Road Y-Pipe
1 x PaceSetter LS1 Long Tube Headers Coated 00-02
(AIR/EGR) (includes NGK TR5 sparkplugs / MSD wires.)
looks like my total for all of this is coming to about $2,650.00. that seem about right guys?
Whether you want to hear it or not.. No matter what his intentions for the car are, 410s are the best gear selection for an M6. 373s would be a waste, why would you even replace them?
Yup, knew that sorry. I was thinkin about my 98 Formula with A4. I still like 3.73s.
Still, a man on a budget spending thousands of dollars to put a rear-end in a 12 second DD that is going to be pampered is like buying flood insurance when you live on a mountain.
Can he break it? Yes. Will he? Not likely. And if he does then would be a good time to decide if he can spend a fortune on a stronger rear or if he'd rather just not repeat whatever he did to break the stock one.
Look at all the cars in the classifieds with the best of everything. Those guys spend 10, 20, and sometimes 30,000 dollars to extract maximum horsepower or e.t.s from their rides and then go broke or have a change in life circumstances that dictates the need to sell their car for half of what they have in it.
don't fix what ain't broken.
Still, a man on a budget spending thousands of dollars to put a rear-end in a 12 second DD that is going to be pampered is like buying flood insurance when you live on a mountain.
Can he break it? Yes. Will he? Not likely. And if he does then would be a good time to decide if he can spend a fortune on a stronger rear or if he'd rather just not repeat whatever he did to break the stock one.
Look at all the cars in the classifieds with the best of everything. Those guys spend 10, 20, and sometimes 30,000 dollars to extract maximum horsepower or e.t.s from their rides and then go broke or have a change in life circumstances that dictates the need to sell their car for half of what they have in it.
don't fix what ain't broken.
Can he break it? Yes. Will he? If he drives the car with a decent cam setup, without a doubt.. Normal bolt ons with winter tires and not getting on it, doubtful.
Maybe stick around a bit more before you start talking about stuff you clearly have not a clue on.
#47
Oh well forgive me my idiotic mistakes! Let's see.. what I really meant to say was "you need to get better brakes. I hear that slots and dimpling help with heat dissipation thereby minimizing pad wear and more importantly reduce the brake fade and pad deflection associated with overheating and rotor warpage that is common on these cars.
I hope that is less idiotic. See my concern was that my brother be safe, NOT to debate which aftermarket solution is best. JACKASS. You must be one of those dumbshits that loses 15,000 dollars on every car that you put together wrong, break, sell and then try again much to the detriment of your wife and children who would much prefer to live in a house rather than a trailer over you dick-measuring with your car that's not as fast or well built as the one blowing your doors off at the track.
With that said, I guess you have counted the "countless" that have broken stock rears, on street tires with 400 hp. Well, while you are at it and before you continue to make us both look like asses, please count the countless people with over 400 hp a stock rear and street tires that have not broken their rears. As far as the lid goes... does he not have an aftermarket lid? That was my only point. If he does and it sucks compared to xyz that he can get for $____ please feel free to enlighten us.
Suspension... What part of "this is my DD" did you not understand? He will not be taking it to the track regular. He will be driving it. Doing things like taking curves instead of just seeing how good of a sixty foot he can brag about. If he cared about what you care about I would say go for the rear end but he doesn't. Don't think that everybody uses their car just like you do yours. Maybe you should read his original post again. He clearly said, he is never going to put drag radials on it. Right now, he'd be lucky to put 315 to the rears, he has three grand to spend. Put it all in a rear end he doesn't need, sure, whatever the experts say. As far as the 3.73s go.. What was I thinking? With my m6 226/226 cam, tune and 3.42s my drivability was great and the thing knocked down 30 on the highway so you're right... Why even replace them? He's not looking for 11's anyway. Oh and maybe he forgot to say it but he won't be POWER-SHIFTING it either. That's something wreckless or desperate people do that commonly does things like....break rear-ends on a 2-3 shift at 6,400 rpm "on street tires". I hear donuts are good for it too. Tony isn't stupid, desperate or wreckless.
I guess if my car was the most important thing in my life I might think more like you do.
Btw.. why are you all hating so much? Didn't you read my disclaimer?!?!
I hope that is less idiotic. See my concern was that my brother be safe, NOT to debate which aftermarket solution is best. JACKASS. You must be one of those dumbshits that loses 15,000 dollars on every car that you put together wrong, break, sell and then try again much to the detriment of your wife and children who would much prefer to live in a house rather than a trailer over you dick-measuring with your car that's not as fast or well built as the one blowing your doors off at the track.
With that said, I guess you have counted the "countless" that have broken stock rears, on street tires with 400 hp. Well, while you are at it and before you continue to make us both look like asses, please count the countless people with over 400 hp a stock rear and street tires that have not broken their rears. As far as the lid goes... does he not have an aftermarket lid? That was my only point. If he does and it sucks compared to xyz that he can get for $____ please feel free to enlighten us.
Suspension... What part of "this is my DD" did you not understand? He will not be taking it to the track regular. He will be driving it. Doing things like taking curves instead of just seeing how good of a sixty foot he can brag about. If he cared about what you care about I would say go for the rear end but he doesn't. Don't think that everybody uses their car just like you do yours. Maybe you should read his original post again. He clearly said, he is never going to put drag radials on it. Right now, he'd be lucky to put 315 to the rears, he has three grand to spend. Put it all in a rear end he doesn't need, sure, whatever the experts say. As far as the 3.73s go.. What was I thinking? With my m6 226/226 cam, tune and 3.42s my drivability was great and the thing knocked down 30 on the highway so you're right... Why even replace them? He's not looking for 11's anyway. Oh and maybe he forgot to say it but he won't be POWER-SHIFTING it either. That's something wreckless or desperate people do that commonly does things like....break rear-ends on a 2-3 shift at 6,400 rpm "on street tires". I hear donuts are good for it too. Tony isn't stupid, desperate or wreckless.
I guess if my car was the most important thing in my life I might think more like you do.
Btw.. why are you all hating so much? Didn't you read my disclaimer?!?!
Last edited by prokilllsx; 02-12-2010 at 06:00 PM. Reason: needed it
#49
Boy do I feel like an IDIOT!!! After reading the brake section here I have realized that slotted are dotted is kinda rotted! Sorry for the misimformation. They may be better than factory but not as good as solids. My bad. I wish I had the last three years to read every article written on here and post four or five thousand times to increase my knowledge but really, I have a life. So please forgive my ignorance. It is what it is. I wish someone coulda pointed that out gently. All the same.. Upgrade the brakes Bro. P.S. Hold off on the rear-end!
#50
Boy do I feel like an IDIOT!!! After reading the brake section here I have realized that slotted are dotted is kinda rotted! Sorry for the misimformation. They may be better than factory but not as good as solids. My bad. I wish I had the last three years to read every article written on here and post four or five thousand times to increase my knowledge but really, I have a life. So please forgive my ignorance. It is what it is. I wish someone coulda pointed that out gently. All the same.. Upgrade the brakes Bro. P.S. Hold off on the rear-end!
#51
Thanks for the support. If he wasn't my blood it might be easy to forget about the most important things like stopping and making corners. Their impact on the car overall far outweighs losing or gaining a couple of tenths or whether or not costly upgrades are done before or after major mechanical failure. That's assuming that failure occurs in the first place.
#52
Obviously the rear is important, but anything you add is going to go with a stock OR aftermarket rear setup (except for the gears and relocation brackets, which i heard you need one's built for aftermarket rears, right?). Whether you replace it now or the next time you want to spend money on your car, whatever.
I would skip on the smooth bellows, UMI says, and the Pacesetter Y, go with stock bellows and the TSP Y if you can. The stock bellows doesnt really hold back much flow compared to a smooth, and the TSP Y has a better merge. Also, Strano sways are the same size as the UMI's I believe, but weigh about 20 lbs. less while not costing that much more, although UMI's are still good.
Finally, the BMR springs are good, but you didn't add any shocks. If you're lowering cars, BUY NEW SHOCKS. The stockers are poor enough as it is, especially if you make them work harder than they are now. Get at least SLP Bilstiens or something.
I'm not a "veteran" by any means, but I spend a lot of my time reading advice from them on here (more than I probably should, lol). I don't mean to give bad advice, so I apologize if I do.
Good luck OP
I would skip on the smooth bellows, UMI says, and the Pacesetter Y, go with stock bellows and the TSP Y if you can. The stock bellows doesnt really hold back much flow compared to a smooth, and the TSP Y has a better merge. Also, Strano sways are the same size as the UMI's I believe, but weigh about 20 lbs. less while not costing that much more, although UMI's are still good.
Finally, the BMR springs are good, but you didn't add any shocks. If you're lowering cars, BUY NEW SHOCKS. The stockers are poor enough as it is, especially if you make them work harder than they are now. Get at least SLP Bilstiens or something.
I'm not a "veteran" by any means, but I spend a lot of my time reading advice from them on here (more than I probably should, lol). I don't mean to give bad advice, so I apologize if I do.
Good luck OP
#53
You must be one of those dumbshits that loses 15,000 dollars on every car that you put together wrong, break, sell and then try again much to the detriment of your wife and children who would much prefer to live in a house rather than a trailer over you dick-measuring with your car that's not as fast or well built as the one blowing your doors off at the track.
I haven't "lost" any money in any of the cars I have built and I have put no where near 15k in any of them.. Hell I would be surprised if I had over 8k tied up in mods (all mods even including appearance) for all the cars I have owned.
I have not broke anything on any of my cars because I am smart about the way I go about things and avoid that when possible. If I have the money at the time and I know it will break, I replace it with better parts before it does.. Then my money goes towards the "fun" mods.
I have no children or a wife. I have my house with my girlfriend. I spend very little money on a month to month basis on the car. I'd say on average 200$ or so a month. Just bought a set of pro stars (600$) but that was the first thing all winter.
As far as getting my doors blown off... Go find me another 226 cam car with a stock ls6 intake hand ported 317s 373 gears that is completely full weight (actually more) that is knocking on 10s doors. Let me know when you find it. I wasn't having a "dick measuring" contest, your brother asked for helped and I came in here to give it. You gave false information along with poor experience and knowledge on the subject and I corrected, obviously you can't handle being incorrect.
With that said, I guess you have counted the "countless" that have broken stock rears, on street tires with 400 hp. Well, while you are at it and before you continue to make us both look like asses, please count the countless people with over 400 hp a stock rear and street tires that have not broken their rears.
As far as the lid goes... does he not have an aftermarket lid? That was my only point. If he does and it sucks compared to xyz that he can get for $____ please feel free to enlighten us.
Suspension... What part of "this is my DD" did you not understand? He will not be taking it to the track regular. He will be driving it. Doing things like taking curves instead of just seeing how good of a sixty foot he can brag about. If he cared about what you care about I would say go for the rear end but he doesn't. Don't think that everybody uses their car just like you do yours. Maybe you should read his original post again. He clearly said, he is never going to put drag radials on it. Right now, he'd be lucky to put 315 to the rears, he has three grand to spend. Put it all in a rear end he doesn't need, sure, whatever the experts say.
I said nothing of a 60'. I said if he wants to have "fun" in his car, suspension is a must. Spinning until 60mph is no fun in most peoples books, that is only good for impressing HS kids. If he wants to have "fun" he needs some minimal suspension mods to hook a little bit of his power to the ground. Why would he do bolt ons or a cam and keep street tires and stock suspension on. You honestly would probably be slower!
I use my car to cut 1.4X times on motor, I didn't give him a recipe for that... I gave him a recipe for a small amount invested in suspension but great benefits.
As far as the 3.73s go.. What was I thinking? With my m6 226/226 cam, tune and 3.42s my drivability was great and the thing knocked down 30 on the highway so you're right... Why even replace them? He's not looking for 11's anyway.
Oh and maybe he forgot to say it but he won't be POWER-SHIFTING it either. That's something wreckless or desperate people do that commonly does things like....break rear-ends on a 2-3 shift at 6,400 rpm "on street tires". I hear donuts are good for it too. Tony isn't stupid, desperate or wreckless.
I guess if my car was the most important thing in my life I might think more like you do.
I guess if my car was the most important thing in my life I might think more like you do.
I never said one thing about that. I have an A4 so don't need to shift my car. My car is far from the most important thing in my life.
Again, your comprehending skills are lacking greatly as you keep attacking me while I am just trying to help your bro/you out.
Btw.. why are you all hating so much? Didn't you read my disclaimer?!?![/QUOTE]
I wish I had the last three years to read every article written on here and post four or five thousand times to increase my knowledge but really, I have a life. So please forgive my ignorance. It is what it is. I wish someone coulda pointed that out gently. All the same.. Upgrade the brakes Bro. P.S. Hold off on the rear-end!
You would think knowing this that you wouldn't be so arrogant in your posts.
Again, I have a life as well... A very packed life. Just because I set time aside at the beginning/end of my day for ls1tech.com means nothing, if it makes yourself feel better by saying I have no life.. By all means, go for it.
If you can't handle my simple posts in this thread then you need to stay off the internet. Not everyone on here is "gentle" in their presentation. Especially when you are making posts such as the ones you have been making.
PS.... You still don't have a clue what I'm telling you.
OP... Spend your money, listen to your brother.. Do whatever you want. In the end it is your car and only you can decide what is done with it. I could care less how you blow your $2,000!
#54
I completely understand that a new rear is a good idea. However, basic bolt-ons/suspension aren't going to be a bad idea, as they basically go with EVERY setup (drag/autox/street/etc.)
I don't worry much about my rear end, as I don't push my car and I've never taken it to the strip. However, I realize it CAN (and probably will eventually) break. I figure I'll save my money for other things for now (no job til the summer) and cross that rear end bridge when I come to it. I'm in school now and all i've spend money on are a lid/shifter/brakes/ls6 intake (good buy, realize it's dumb without full exhaust really)/koni's for spring. For some people a $2500 investment up front on a car is a lofty thing to do.
Depending on exactly what the OP wants to do with his car and can afford, a 9"/S60 would probably be a good idea. I don't think that telling him he's going to "blow" his money on other things if he doesn't get a rear is the right thing to say.
As far as the suspension thing goes, whether your street driving, drag racing, autocrossing, or whatever, the stock suspension can be improved. For drag racing, stock shocks/springs aren't too bad, but LCA's, RB's, TA, and SFC's will help a lot. For street driving, and autocrossing actually, shocks/sways/springs (optional) will make the car better controlled and more fun to drive.
There's a lot of different things you can buy with $2k, you can get a bunch of supporting mods, or you can buy a rear. It's completely up to the OP, and I don't think there's a perfectly RIGHT or WRONG way to go about starting modding....well, from some suggestions I've read on this and a few other threads, there are some wrong ways, lol
I don't worry much about my rear end, as I don't push my car and I've never taken it to the strip. However, I realize it CAN (and probably will eventually) break. I figure I'll save my money for other things for now (no job til the summer) and cross that rear end bridge when I come to it. I'm in school now and all i've spend money on are a lid/shifter/brakes/ls6 intake (good buy, realize it's dumb without full exhaust really)/koni's for spring. For some people a $2500 investment up front on a car is a lofty thing to do.
Depending on exactly what the OP wants to do with his car and can afford, a 9"/S60 would probably be a good idea. I don't think that telling him he's going to "blow" his money on other things if he doesn't get a rear is the right thing to say.
As far as the suspension thing goes, whether your street driving, drag racing, autocrossing, or whatever, the stock suspension can be improved. For drag racing, stock shocks/springs aren't too bad, but LCA's, RB's, TA, and SFC's will help a lot. For street driving, and autocrossing actually, shocks/sways/springs (optional) will make the car better controlled and more fun to drive.
There's a lot of different things you can buy with $2k, you can get a bunch of supporting mods, or you can buy a rear. It's completely up to the OP, and I don't think there's a perfectly RIGHT or WRONG way to go about starting modding....well, from some suggestions I've read on this and a few other threads, there are some wrong ways, lol
#56
#58
#59