H/C car not performing at all! Help!
08-16-2011, 12:37 AM
#21
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While I agree that your stall speed is not ideal for the H/C package, I disagree with it being the root of your problem.
You mentioned your tuner thinks the stall is too "tight". That might explain your ET (not entirely though, IMO), but it doesn't explain the low MPH that seems to be getting even lower with additional track time.
I would look at trans condition first. You mention a lazy/sloppy 2-3 shift....that's an indication right there of potential problems.
I disagree with the idea of tossing a higher stall at it and hoping for the best. Your 60 foot is weaker than it should be for a full traction launch with 3.42s and 3600 stall, even with a cam of that size. Your MPH screams of low HP at the wheels, either due to a mechanical problem (slipping trans, etc.) or a tuning issue.
Do yourself a favor, put the car on a dyno before doing anything else.
You mentioned your tuner thinks the stall is too "tight". That might explain your ET (not entirely though, IMO), but it doesn't explain the low MPH that seems to be getting even lower with additional track time.
I would look at trans condition first. You mention a lazy/sloppy 2-3 shift....that's an indication right there of potential problems.
I disagree with the idea of tossing a higher stall at it and hoping for the best. Your 60 foot is weaker than it should be for a full traction launch with 3.42s and 3600 stall, even with a cam of that size. Your MPH screams of low HP at the wheels, either due to a mechanical problem (slipping trans, etc.) or a tuning issue.
Do yourself a favor, put the car on a dyno before doing anything else.
08-16-2011, 07:21 PM
#22
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Density Altitude: 1959 feet
Relative Density: 94.39 %
Rpm from 1st into 2nd drops to around 4,000 and the same from 2nd to 3rd
redline is 6800 and shifts at 65-6600
tuner also mentioned that the o2's might be giving false readings, forgot why, somethings with cam size maybe... he turned some fuel table thing off while we were at the track making it die if i didnt toe it when i shifted in and out of drive and reverse, but did fine at WOT
Called thunder today. They said with my cam and my mods (similar TF 215 heads is only diff) that at the cam makes 50 more torque from 3200 to 3600 and 80 more (405 ftlbs) at 4200 rpm... Just food for thought
Relative Density: 94.39 %
Rpm from 1st into 2nd drops to around 4,000 and the same from 2nd to 3rd
redline is 6800 and shifts at 65-6600
tuner also mentioned that the o2's might be giving false readings, forgot why, somethings with cam size maybe... he turned some fuel table thing off while we were at the track making it die if i didnt toe it when i shifted in and out of drive and reverse, but did fine at WOT
Called thunder today. They said with my cam and my mods (similar TF 215 heads is only diff) that at the cam makes 50 more torque from 3200 to 3600 and 80 more (405 ftlbs) at 4200 rpm... Just food for thought
08-16-2011, 08:12 PM
#24
yes, i race at sikeston. is DA the altitude? its about 300' or so, maybe even less.
Im not spinning at all when i take off
2nd-3rd shift is as lazy as it gets (it shifts from 2 to 3 about 100ft before the line
i dont have a MAF
the tuner knows his stuff... he is thinking transmission/converter b/c my 3600 is tight and the cam doesnt kick in till 36-4000. he also thinks i might be pullin vacuum since i have and LS6 intake and stock TB.
on a side note, on the way home from the tack i raced a 6spd SS (unknown mods) from a 70 roll and a 15 roll and it wasnt even close, my car freaking flashed about 3800 and hauled ***....but from a dig its just not gettin it done.
Im not spinning at all when i take off
2nd-3rd shift is as lazy as it gets (it shifts from 2 to 3 about 100ft before the line
i dont have a MAF
the tuner knows his stuff... he is thinking transmission/converter b/c my 3600 is tight and the cam doesnt kick in till 36-4000. he also thinks i might be pullin vacuum since i have and LS6 intake and stock TB.
on a side note, on the way home from the tack i raced a 6spd SS (unknown mods) from a 70 roll and a 15 roll and it wasnt even close, my car freaking flashed about 3800 and hauled ***....but from a dig its just not gettin it done.
08-16-2011, 08:59 PM
#26
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I'm not sure how else to say this, but your current setup (yes, even your current heads/cam/stall/gear combo) has more in it if you get everything working right (trans and tune).
08-17-2011, 06:30 AM
#29
I loved being the first guy to mention a "mechanical issue" and that would make the most sense. The 4L60e is a garbage transmission for the power level these things run at in a mild build. Hell it took well over 15 years since it's debute to get companies rebuilding them stronger on a consistant basis.
08-17-2011, 08:27 AM
#30
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Can't agree with that statement 100%. While the 4l60e is known to commonly blow through 3/4 clutch packs even at stock levels, my stocker held fine to a modded and beaten on car. Still living healthy at 110k in a buddy's modded car. 
Most don't fail till they get higher in mileage and/or behind a pretty modded setup.
Most don't fail till they get higher in mileage and/or behind a pretty modded setup.
08-17-2011, 09:54 AM
#32
Mine was fine cam only in my 94' but once the 383 got in there (making 370ish) it could not keep one alive to save it's own life.
The trans are crap, fact, and 117k and that power is showing the short coming. I await some results, I think a mustang dyno can show with a load on the engine if the trans is crapping out.
Two things are glaring here, lack of upgrade to the transmission and how it is apparently running, and the lack of a proper dyno tune. The size of the stall is maybe a distant 3rd as the reason.
I will say from personal exp was that the 2nd time I blew my 4L60e was at the track and would act like it was spinning, running a 2.0x 60 foot and was doing 1.7's on a SMALL 2800 stall (94 LT1 383 small cam) people noticed no spinning. I actually won the bracket event there due to a inherent slip in the trans but soon had to rebuild. 1st gear tended flare a bit, sometimes hit the limiter, sometimes shifting fine but that was the tell tail sign. This was back in 2004/2005 before find other good companies but long story short, stock cannot handle H/C power for long and its a matter of time.
The trans are crap, fact, and 117k and that power is showing the short coming. I await some results, I think a mustang dyno can show with a load on the engine if the trans is crapping out.
Two things are glaring here, lack of upgrade to the transmission and how it is apparently running, and the lack of a proper dyno tune. The size of the stall is maybe a distant 3rd as the reason.
I will say from personal exp was that the 2nd time I blew my 4L60e was at the track and would act like it was spinning, running a 2.0x 60 foot and was doing 1.7's on a SMALL 2800 stall (94 LT1 383 small cam) people noticed no spinning. I actually won the bracket event there due to a inherent slip in the trans but soon had to rebuild. 1st gear tended flare a bit, sometimes hit the limiter, sometimes shifting fine but that was the tell tail sign. This was back in 2004/2005 before find other good companies but long story short, stock cannot handle H/C power for long and its a matter of time.
Last edited by BlackScreaminMachine; 08-17-2011 at 10:00 AM.
08-17-2011, 11:32 AM
#33
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My experience is that they hold up well in stock and bolt-on cars. I don't see them as crap at all, but then again I also don't expect any stock trans to hold up to serious increases in power or RPM without some beefing. It's unrealistic, IMO.
08-17-2011, 12:02 PM
#34
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If your transmission was "crap" you would flare, not bog.
Bog like in knock retard, will dog you all the way down the
track (why do people even bother with 1/8 mile?).
Speculation is pointless, you need a scan tool at least and
used ATAP / EFILive6 would ought to set you back little
compared to all the hardware you've bought.
Bog like in knock retard, will dog you all the way down the
track (why do people even bother with 1/8 mile?).
Speculation is pointless, you need a scan tool at least and
used ATAP / EFILive6 would ought to set you back little
compared to all the hardware you've bought.
08-17-2011, 12:06 PM
#35
I hear yea, and yea you beat me lol. Most who get into the hobby don't initially realize there are builders out there for everything, nor have a resource as good as this site. Most get their builds "local" and for the 4L60e its more about the builder vs the parts so companies out there could have been doing this but it was not readily avalible for me to use.
Fact is GM put more or less the same driveline they deemed ok enough for a S-10 in a car that is far heavier and made more power we well as the potential of tons more and as soon as you start adding power, removing TQ management, adding a stall, you have just accelerated the demise of that said transmission.
In the end, this is my opinion but I feel that if those 2 points are addressed, he should find his answer.
Fact is GM put more or less the same driveline they deemed ok enough for a S-10 in a car that is far heavier and made more power we well as the potential of tons more and as soon as you start adding power, removing TQ management, adding a stall, you have just accelerated the demise of that said transmission.
In the end, this is my opinion but I feel that if those 2 points are addressed, he should find his answer.
08-17-2011, 01:30 PM
#36
After you get the tranny sorted out you really should look at another converter. The converter that I run is setup for NA cars only. But it stalls to 4,000 rpm on take off and between shifts it doesn't drop back to 4,000 rpm. It will drop back maybe to 5,500 and this will keep you in the cams power range better giving you quicker times. I bought a Performabuilt Level 2 4L60e after trying to get mine built locally. A regular rebuilt 4L60e wouldn't ever shift corectly and was always banging a rev limiter.
08-17-2011, 02:22 PM
#37
To say that any stock component is junk after you add 100+ Rwhp to your car and it doesn't live but 3K miles is a joke. Any stock component should only be expected to live under stock circumstances, sure you will have some issues but they are far and frew between. Parts that are "junk" are parts that break with STOCK cars on a regular basis, I believe the Ls4s are prone to blowing transmissions stock, I consaider that junk. If they were living at stock but people werer doing full bolt ons and picking up 50Rwhp and adding a converter and upping the line pressure, why would you expect it to last?
You mod, stuff breaks. Period.
I installed a 4400 vig and 410s at 100K miles in my 98 Trans Am. From that point on it made 375+Rwhp (Ms4 went in also), later H/C/I were added where it made 430. Shifting at 6500 Rpms (I ran this car hard and visited the strip once a month) driving it every day for two years accumilating 16K miles on that setup, the stock bottom end transmission or rear end (had a girdle) never had an issue, not one.
For 130+Rwhp over stock and it being drove as hard and as often as it was with the Ms4/4400/410s, I say give credit where credit is due.
Way too many stock transmission hold up for 10K+ miles with 400Rwhp to say they are junk because some crap out immediately with full bolt ons and a healthy converter. Stock ten bolts behind a six speed=crap. Stock ten bolts behind a stalled auto=plenty live for years in the 1.5 range and a ton even at the 1.4 range, that is not junk.
My .02.
Same can be said for EVERY drive line component and every make and model vehicle, not just GMs 4l60e in the Fbody.
If that was the case every single stock drive line component is junk because it breaks when you tune it to be much more aggressive and strain it by adding more power/tq.
You mod, stuff breaks. Period.
I installed a 4400 vig and 410s at 100K miles in my 98 Trans Am. From that point on it made 375+Rwhp (Ms4 went in also), later H/C/I were added where it made 430. Shifting at 6500 Rpms (I ran this car hard and visited the strip once a month) driving it every day for two years accumilating 16K miles on that setup, the stock bottom end transmission or rear end (had a girdle) never had an issue, not one.
For 130+Rwhp over stock and it being drove as hard and as often as it was with the Ms4/4400/410s, I say give credit where credit is due.
Way too many stock transmission hold up for 10K+ miles with 400Rwhp to say they are junk because some crap out immediately with full bolt ons and a healthy converter. Stock ten bolts behind a six speed=crap. Stock ten bolts behind a stalled auto=plenty live for years in the 1.5 range and a ton even at the 1.4 range, that is not junk.
My .02.
I hear yea, and yea you beat me lol. Most who get into the hobby don't initially realize there are builders out there for everything, nor have a resource as good as this site. Most get their builds "local" and for the 4L60e its more about the builder vs the parts so companies out there could have been doing this but it was not readily avalible for me to use.
Fact is GM put more or less the same driveline they deemed ok enough for a S-10 in a car that is far heavier and made more power we well as the potential of tons more and as soon as you start adding power, removing TQ management, adding a stall, you have just accelerated the demise of that said transmission.In the end, this is my opinion but I feel that if those 2 points are addressed, he should find his answer.
Fact is GM put more or less the same driveline they deemed ok enough for a S-10 in a car that is far heavier and made more power we well as the potential of tons more and as soon as you start adding power, removing TQ management, adding a stall, you have just accelerated the demise of that said transmission.In the end, this is my opinion but I feel that if those 2 points are addressed, he should find his answer.
If that was the case every single stock drive line component is junk because it breaks when you tune it to be much more aggressive and strain it by adding more power/tq.
08-17-2011, 03:03 PM
#38
The fact is that people may not like what is said but when your planning a project people put far too much faith in some items and are suprised stuff does not work out the way they expected.
In some rare cases factory cars come with components that can handle increased power that the users may do to it. One in recent memory was 03-04 cobras, forged internals, requires very minimal to make big power if done correctly.
I can't speak for everyone but I do race and I have won a event or 2 and having a questionable part in the car ruin my day, and possible loss of money (winnings and repairs) thats crap and the right way to do it is to upgrade or replace but thats going beyond the point of this post.
There are guys out there spitting ring gears out of stock 10 bolt on the street, and stock powered T-56's and under that definition I would call it crap. Automatics have inherent slip that allow them to live but for racing its not a desired component.
Long story short is that car should be a heck of a lot faster then it is and there is something wrong. The OP needs to get it figured out and I think are enough leads to get him started. TUNE and mechanical verification of the health of that 4L60e are great starting points.
In some rare cases factory cars come with components that can handle increased power that the users may do to it. One in recent memory was 03-04 cobras, forged internals, requires very minimal to make big power if done correctly.
I can't speak for everyone but I do race and I have won a event or 2 and having a questionable part in the car ruin my day, and possible loss of money (winnings and repairs) thats crap and the right way to do it is to upgrade or replace but thats going beyond the point of this post.
There are guys out there spitting ring gears out of stock 10 bolt on the street, and stock powered T-56's and under that definition I would call it crap. Automatics have inherent slip that allow them to live but for racing its not a desired component.
Long story short is that car should be a heck of a lot faster then it is and there is something wrong. The OP needs to get it figured out and I think are enough leads to get him started. TUNE and mechanical verification of the health of that 4L60e are great starting points.
08-17-2011, 04:38 PM
#39
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To say that any stock component is junk after you add 100+ Rwhp to your car and it doesn't live but 3K miles is a joke. Any stock component should only be expected to live under stock circumstances, sure you will have some issues but they are far and frew between. Parts that are "junk" are parts that break with STOCK cars on a regular basis, I believe the Ls4s are prone to blowing transmissions stock, I consaider that junk. If they were living at stock but people werer doing full bolt ons and picking up 50Rwhp and adding a converter and upping the line pressure, why would you expect it to last?
You mod, stuff breaks. Period.
I installed a 4400 vig and 410s at 100K miles in my 98 Trans Am. From that point on it made 375+Rwhp (Ms4 went in also), later H/C/I were added where it made 430. Shifting at 6500 Rpms (I ran this car hard and visited the strip once a month) driving it every day for two years accumilating 16K miles on that setup, the stock bottom end transmission or rear end (had a girdle) never had an issue, not one.
For 130+Rwhp over stock and it being drove as hard and as often as it was with the Ms4/4400/410s, I say give credit where credit is due.
Way too many stock transmission hold up for 10K+ miles with 400Rwhp to say they are junk because some crap out immediately with full bolt ons and a healthy converter. Stock ten bolts behind a six speed=crap. Stock ten bolts behind a stalled auto=plenty live for years in the 1.5 range and a ton even at the 1.4 range, that is not junk.
My .02.
You mod, stuff breaks. Period.
I installed a 4400 vig and 410s at 100K miles in my 98 Trans Am. From that point on it made 375+Rwhp (Ms4 went in also), later H/C/I were added where it made 430. Shifting at 6500 Rpms (I ran this car hard and visited the strip once a month) driving it every day for two years accumilating 16K miles on that setup, the stock bottom end transmission or rear end (had a girdle) never had an issue, not one.
For 130+Rwhp over stock and it being drove as hard and as often as it was with the Ms4/4400/410s, I say give credit where credit is due.
Way too many stock transmission hold up for 10K+ miles with 400Rwhp to say they are junk because some crap out immediately with full bolt ons and a healthy converter. Stock ten bolts behind a six speed=crap. Stock ten bolts behind a stalled auto=plenty live for years in the 1.5 range and a ton even at the 1.4 range, that is not junk.
My .02.
Anyone that is planning to pull an additional 100rwhp out of their LS1 car, AND actually race it, should consider the following manditory:
A4: Build the trans
M6: Upgrade the clutch and get a 9"/12-bolt.
Will everyone need this the first time out? No, some guys are lucky and get stock stuff to hold up for a while. But should everyone plan for this as part of their build? Yes, most definitely. If you can't afford to have these items break, then you can't afford to be modifing the engine for significantly increased power either.
08-17-2011, 07:58 PM
#40
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ok ok ok... the 4400 fuddle went in today, along with 3-4 clutches and a band... they were SHOT! i have not driven the car yet but he told me it is like a complete different car. just and update, i am going to try to get to the track friday if not saturday.