xlock

Hi all, soon to be new owner of a 2002 Trans Am M6. I've read the stickies, gotten CarFax and VinCheck reports, looked at the RPO codes and tried to generally do my homework. I test drove the car today and am approved for the loan, just a matter of pulling the trigger.
Here is what I can't figure out...the car has a Hurst "H" embossed on the shifter but I can't find that in the RPO, the PO could have installed I guess as it has an SLP lid, twin dual tip exhaust and skip shift delete. This is a local trade in that was local for the last 7 years and has 44k on the clock; all the history adds up to the mileage and no major issues reported. It has the typical cracks in the doors and dash as well as the sail panel paint issue which was never addressed apparently though it's not bad. The dealer is willing to lower price on the cosmetics, just curious if there is anything I missed looking for and if someone could advise on factory Hurst in 2002 models. Lastly it shows up as a Formula on some VIN checks and as a Formula/Trans Am on CarFax, is that normal?
My first car was an 88 Formula(that was in 92) that I loved dearly and I have wanted an F-Body ever since they came out; thanks for any help!!

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

how much are they asking?

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

Showing up as a Formula (per VIN) is normal, as they are both VIN coded as "2FV".

RPO for Trans Am was Y82, and for Formula W66.

Hurst shifter option was RPO BBS, but the **** (or entire shifter) could obviously have been added as aftermarket if the order code is not present.

xlock

Thanks for the replies, asking $13,900 and I'm prepared to pay $11kish so we're still working that out.
As for the codes, the RPO stickers were removed from the door but I can see shadows of where they were, I guess a PO was OCD or something but the dealer provided me with a build sheet from the database(for sale at the Buick/GMC/Cadillac dealer it was local to for the last 7 years) and it doesn't list BBS so thanks for that info. It does list both WS9 Formula option and Y82 Trans Am option though?? Any insight on that?
Thanks again for taking the time to school me!

NVUSZ28

iTrader: (5)

With the market the way it is, I would start at 8k, for that car, and work your way up if necessary. I learned the hard way how much these cars lost value over the last 3 years. If you get it for around 10, consider it a victory for a Trans Am. Also is it a WS.6?

xlock

I've been looking for 2 years and have never seen an LS1 equipped 6 speed with under 50k sell for less than $10k...Granted, I've just been looking at car lots, Craigslist, Auto Trader, etc and not on forums. I'm looking for a stockish daily driver to enjoy in rotation with a Jeep and a motorcycle with no drag strip or street racing aspirations.
No, not a WS6, just a T/A.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

I agree, with the mileage and options and the fact it's at a dealer, $8k would be absurd to expect, and they probably wouldn't consider you a serious buyer with an offer like that. They have no reason to rush into a sale since they are a dealer, and there will certainly be someone willing to pay considerably more than $8k and I'm sure they know this. In my region, there hasn't really been much change in value for the low mileage, desirable models in the last several years at all.

WS9 is a "model conversion" code and is present on every LS1 Trans Am that I have seen (sort of like the ambiguous "FV" coding in the VIN which could mean either Formula or Trans Am), but that's not the option code for the "Formula Merchandising package". For it to be a Formula and NOT a Trans Am, it would need to have the W66 code and not the Y82 code.

FWIW, my '00 WS6 Trans Am also had both the Y82 and WS9 codes.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

how long has it been at that dealer? that should be considered in negotiating a price.


id figure out how much it needs in repairs and subtract that right away and assume youll find other stuff it needs. it might have a leak or need brakes ect soon.

while 8k is low balling i agree asking almost 14k is also way out of line imo.

also,are you financing through that dealer?

xlock

Thanks a ton for all the feedback and decoding; I have a better idea of what I'm looking at now.
As for the dealer info, not sure. I travel 5 states for a living and came across it last week about 4.5 hours from home. No biggie as I can rent a uhaul car hauler(drive on) for $180 and bring it back with me behind the company truck as I will be close by again next week. I do know the dealer put on new front brakes as part of the prep to sell it but I get what your saying about unknowns. I applied through the dealer but was approved through my personal bank as well. If I can get it for 10.5 or so I'll feel good about it...I want to upgrade wheels/tires, repair/replace door panels and dash panel, completely replace audio system and get a respectable paint job while keeping it under $15k.
$14,xxx is KBB, that's where that came from but I agree it's out of line with condition...I'm willing to overspend a tad for low mileage as my abilities and resources are more on the 12V/Paint/Accessory side than the mechanical side of the auto industry.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

based on your description 10.5 OTD would be acceptable imo.

murphinator

iTrader: (2)

a low mile car priced like that shouldn't need a paint job , are there dents ,dings ,scratches? or maybe it just need to be buffed?

xlock

Cool, thanks again for the knowledge. As for the paint there are a couple poorly repaired chips; one on the front bumper by the tag and one on the spoiler. Also some light spider web cracks in the front bumper that appear to have come from leaning on it while working under the hood, certainly not from impact. Also the afore mentioned sail panel "acne" which again, is very light...now that you mention it I may be able to have it brought back without a full paint job; I'm just really critical.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

wow,this is making me reconsider what this car is worth.


you also need to subtract for body and paint repairs.


this is why these cars arent worth what most ask for them. they arent in the condition sellers claim them to be a lot of the time.

i can understand paying more for a low mileage mint cond. ls1 fbody but most are not.

xlock

Supply and demand my man...supply stopped 12 years ago...is it the best choice? Probably not. Is a new Honda Accord Coupe twice as comfortable with 20 less HP an available 6 speed and better mpg? Yep. This is the car I keep coming back to though and it's the best one I've seen that I can get.

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

i get it but imo thats still no reason to pay more than its worth.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

20hp difference? I would say definitely not. A stock LS1 is a 350hp engine (the F-body ratings were for marketing, this is the same LS1 that was used in an '02 C5, and thus makes the same power), so it's more like a 70hp difference using Honda's 278hp (V6) rating. And don't forget about the ~100tq difference. Frankly, the V6 Honda Accord isn't even comparable to this Trans Am in terms of stock performance, especially since it's just about as heavy but with considerably less power and torque.

In terms of price, I have to agree that the asking price is excessive if the paint/condition isn't great. A 44k mile example should be in pretty excellent condition to be listed for that sort of retail amount. If it actually needs a complete paint job, then I take back everything I said about $8k being absurd. I also didn't notice before that you mentioned the dash is cracked as well. The door cracks are common on the Pontiacs no matter how well cared for they are, but the dash should not be cracked on a 44k mile car unless it sat in full sun all day every day. My 106k mile '02 didn't have any dash cracks when I sold it earlier this year, and it mostly sat outside. I kept it treated with 303 though.

xlock

Yeah, I was mostly just goofing on the Accord reference but just illustrating that a lot has changed in the last 12 years in terms of what cars are doing from the factory in terms of power. I did not know that F-body ratings were under reported though, I thought folks were modding to get up to those numbers.
Long story short I would be foolish to come on here and ignore advice from two 10 year members so I appreciate all your input and will most likely pass on this one unless I can get a significantly lower price; I'll let you know how it goes.
Thanks again for taking all the time to help me out!

ULTIMATEORANGESS

iTrader: (4)

anytime.


were always here to help.

Firebrian

I'd agree that pricing on lower mileage LS-1's hasn't changed all that much the past 3 years. But, if you're going to dump $14K to $15K into a car (paint, wheels, tires, dash, door panels, etc.) odds are that won't be the end of it. For that same $14K to $15K you can certainly find a <45K miles 2002 LS-1 M6 for $15K or less that has great paint, is up to date on maintenance and wasn't stored outside. If you drop down to a '98 to '00 you can save yourself another $1,500-$3,000. A lot of the money you'll be dumping into the 44K mile car will not be recoverable. For resale value in the event you want to change into something different a couple years from now I'd go with nice original paint. The bubbling in the sail panel/roof will keep coming back unless you replace the panel. Constant sun exposure is what keeps that roof panel bubbling. Figure $1,000-$1,500 parts & labor for that repair by itself if a shop does it. Fwiw I bought my 1 owner - 12K miles 1999 M6 SS for $12K two years ago. Put another $1500 into it since for new tires, AC compressor + HP/LP lines, all fluids changed.

RPM WS6

iTrader: (3)

There are two ways to look at this though; one could also argue that it's pretty impressive that a 12+ year old car still outperforms a majority of new models on average, and also is still decently competitive with it's current replacement (5th gen) due to weight differences.

In terms of the older LS1s ('98-'00), there was only a minor engine difference between the C5s and F-bodies. Corvette used a slightly different cam, and thus didn't need an EGR, but this difference is very slight and doesn't translate into any real-world power difference of any significance. You can consider all the earlier LS1s to be ~345hp engines, C5 or F-body.

Starting in 2001, the cam was standardized between F-body and C5. In fact, no LS1 received an LS1 cam starting from that point forward, as the cam profile was switched to that of the LQ4/9 truck engine (for both C5 and F-body), and both received the improved LS6 intake stock (with no EGR). So you can consider all the '01+ LS1s to be ~350hp engines stock.

The various F-body ratings of 305/310hp for the base models, or 320/325hp for the base SS/WS6, were just marketing games to make the C5 appear to have a more powerful engine. In fact, there is no horsepower difference between them and a same year C5, or even between a Z28 and a base SS, or Formula/TA and a WS6 either; the only powertrain difference between those various F-body trims levels is the muffler size and tail pipe diameter, which might equate to ~2-3hp if you're lucky. The only models that actually had a small power advantage from the factory are the SS cars that were ordered with the optional SLP dual/dual exhaust or, for 2002, the dual/dual and Blackwing air lid package cars. The optional SS exhaust was standard on Firehawk, so those automatically had a slight power bump over the other models.

Glad you found all this helpful. The car might still be worth buying, just not at that price based on the condition information you have provided.

Correct. And just as an FYI to the OP, this roof problem is not a matter of a car being neglected, etc. All '99+ F-bodies (and some very late '98s) are subject to this problem, and will eventually have a bubbling roof unless they are never exposed to heat and sunlight. And, as correctly stated above, the only way to fix this problem for good is to replace the roof panel (a simple repaint will not fix this).

This is one reason why I prefer '98s (ones built prior to the change), since this repair can be avoided. There are many people that dislike the '98s for some of their differences as compared to the newer LS1s, but for my purposes those differences either don't matter, or are preferable, or are easier (IMO) to deal with than roof replacement. I owned an '02 model right along side my '98 for many years, and I can say that there was nothing about the '02 that made it vastly superior or worth any kind of significant premium over the '98 in my personal experience. Other than the LS6 intake, I found the differences on my '02 to be mostly neutral or even negative vs. my '98.

In case you want to know more about the roof panel issue, here is a link to a comprehensive sticky concerning this condition:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/paint-bod...e-dummies.html