So I have a total noob question related to tuning.

Why do I need a wide band AFR gauge? The engine is already getting readings from the installed O2's. wouldn't these provide the correct AFR info?

That said I know it doesn't since tuners like HP Tuner offer a pro model which lets you wire in a wideband and all the feedback I have read says you need a wideband to tune properly.

Just curious what those O2 sensors are sending to the ecm I guess

 

You can do some research on a couple terms.
1. narrow band oxygen sensor
2. wide band oxygen sensor
3. lambda


Everyone has their own way to tune an engine. Some people don't use wideband sensors (very rare). Wideband tech is fairly new to general population of automotive world (iirc sometime in 2002-2006 it became affordable to us)

 

You ask why you should have a wideband AFR gauge? Basically because it covers a multitude of possibilities in the event of something going wrong. Being able to moniter the AFR can allow you back off before something bad happens

 

^^Especially on a nitrous car

 

The gauge isn't going to save you. You can't react fast enough to save an engine using the guage. Only the computer, if it is setup to interact with the gauge, could do that. But this is very very rare.

In these terms, gauge is most useful after engine is destroyed, you can look at log to see what went wrong.

 

Some gauges can be setup to flash when going lean, so they can be very helpful in saving a motor. Some even have an audible warning which can be even better yet

 

I get what AFR is and why you need to monitor it. I have two Innovate AFR wide bands, one in my SBC and the others in my BBC.

I thought moving to LSx would have had the GM engineers incorporating AFR into the reactive tuning capabilities.

 

They do, sort of. They monitor narrowbands and trim fuel based on the way they ping on and off. Its a crude system but it DOES work when the fueling maps are correct. The problem is when you are tuning you are altering the fueling maps so that the computer can function with the narrowbands properly. They are used to supplement correct fueling tables, not create them. Hope that makes sense.

 

I see that they make gauges for a wide band on both sides, (2 sensors) but can't you only tune off of a single wide band in HP tuners?

 

This is an unfortunate phenomenon I have only seen on LS1tech. It must be inexperience, I am sure you never used a stand-alone before. Not picking on you. Some people on this forum seem to think that narrowbands have something to do with tuning, or that tuning is around some kind of fuel trim target based on narrowband operation. See how he says "when you are tuning... altering fuel maps... narrowbands properly" This is unfortunately incorrect. I have tuned hundreds of vehicles and most of them do not have narrowbands. And yet people seem to think you need it for some kind of "tuning" and call it a "problem".


You can completely tune a stand-alone or HPtuner ECU without the narrowband, without closed loop. Don't get hung up on thinking you need to strive for some kind of narrowband EQ ratio, or that you need them for the engine to function correctly and get good fuel economy. I am not saying they are pointless; only that it is inappropriate to think of it as some kind of "tuning problem".

 

Oh boy...here we go...

 

5.7 stroker

HP tuner PRO allows you to see the results of your wide band next to the outputs captured thru the standard data logging of the ecu.

You have up to 5 external inputs so maybe there is a way to see 2 widebands if desired.

 

Add another one to your belt, another one you dont comprehend. Im not sure if you have poor reading skills or are just retarded. You dont use narrowbands to tune, and i didnt say you did. I (and everyone else I know) tune VE and MAF fueling tables in open loop with a wideband. Once the core tables are correct, the narrowbands are turned back on so fueling can be trimmed by the PCM to compensate for weather/elevation or other variances that come along with driving a car year round. Narrowbands are to be used once tuning is complete, and the hard coded tables have been corrected by you for the mods youve done. It may sound complicated to some but its actually incredibly easy. Im building (then tuning) a turbo car for a guy now. He wants more experience tuning. I told him once the car is running i would take him with me and we would tune it together, and that he would laugh hysterically on how simple the process is.

 

And there it is...

 

BLAH BLAH BLAH, you don't need a narrowband. having a narrowband doesn't give you tuning problems, as you put it. Your own words!!

Deny you used those words so i can quote again


... trying to scare people new to tuning, trying to pretend like you know something essential "problem" about tuning, it isn't jack **** and has nothing to do with tuning an engine the way a computer compensates for a 0 or 1v input like its some monstrous essential tuning issue. You are literally staring down the barrel of the second most un-essential piece of equipment on a vehicle, calling it a "tuning problem". lrn2tune.

 

So is the only function of the narrow band to adjust the fuel trim based on environment?

 

Define environment? A trim is a change. In simple terms, if the computer runs the base fuel maps and expects to see 14.7 afr, but the narrow bands tell it it is 14.0, it will negative trim (remove fuel) trying to get to 14.7. Understand a narrow band simply says rich or lean, not 14.0 or 14.7, so its a guessing game and the PCM has to bounce it around some to see where it switches back and forth. Its a crude system but does work decently when everything is working correctly.

Kingtalon you're one hell of a joke.

 

Thanks! It just clicked. By environment I meant weather,load, etc, basically any input which could impact fuel requirements

 

Hi EP & ALL, as the inventor of the FOUR Wire EGO Sensor for NTK, I might be ABLE to state some EXPERT tech about Lambda Sensors.
#1 = NO, unless your engine is not common : Example is Lean Burn operation.
The EGO sensor will operate correctly with a Gas Temperature of 600F-1600F AND an AFR (benzine) of 12.5-16.
The EGO sensor is NOT a "Ping/Ping" sensor when read correctly, this sensor has a VOLTAGE output with approx .5 volts as a Stoic read.
This voltage signal is like a peak, /\ , AND is able to be read using a Scope OR NORMAL A/D conversions.
My ECU882C has a calibration table in Firmware for Voltage=Lambda.

NOW for more "rebut to all" : MY work with the UEGO began if 1986 when I was allowed to BUY UEGO sensors from NTK AFTER an agreement was signed stating "used for ECM NOT a AFR Meter"
TEN years later Innovate created their Meter and "tossed" the supplied Calibration Resistor supplied with EACH UEGO.
That common read, of theirs, is a read ONE POINT RICHER than true AFR.

The art of owning/using a UEGO sensor meter is a perfect tool when used to "speed-up" the tuning method, the time it takes to create a Fuel Map.

I ask this question : Why was the Lambda sensor created AND on who's orders ?

Lance

 

wideband is a narrowband, but not the reverse. Once you started tuning you ditch the narrow for the wideband, it has everything and more. If you want the computer to have an analog voltage input from a "narrowband" you would still use the more accurate wideband sensor by default. I configure many wideband to output 0.005v @ 14.75:1 and 1.005v @ 15.285 a/f, it functions after 1500rpm on many engines because below 1500rpm there is too much transient delay to the sensor (post downpipe) can be 0.650ms+, and the injector pulsewidth step size is too large with a large injector to have good resolution there.


If you happen to need just NEED to have actual narrowband sensors for OCD, you can place them in the exhaust manifold near the engine because they are cheap and who cares if they blow up. Since all narrowbands are the same you can use $4 1-wire narrowband sensors on the manifold locations, right off the head. No issue with $4 sensors blowing up once in a while when I use leaded C16 to make 650rwhp for a couple days with 93-octane size injectors. This is if I even wanted to use narrowband sensors- which, in the light of cleaning up the engine bay, would be nice to get rid of them appearance wise, at least.