what would I run
#21
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I have a '01 SS with the 3.23s, slp lid, long tubes, or-y, hooker catback, a tune, and on Falken Ziex 275/45-17s I ran a best of 13.34@105mph with a 2.0 60'. Six out of eight passes I ran 13.5@106, one run I put it to the floor on takeoff just to see what would happen and I spun thru 2nd, got out of it and then rolled back into it and got a 14.1. My other runs I stalled to 1500rpm and rolled the throttle to the floor around 30-40mph so they wouldn't break loose too bad. Hope that helps, but a stall will do you no good without traction, traction will do you no good without a 12-bolt.
#23
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Originally Posted by TXZ28LS1
so should i keep my 2.73 or bump up to 3.42? i do plan on getting a 3200 stall.
a) want from the car
b) use the car for?
I love the ability to shoot up to 150mph, which really won't be possible with 3.42's not unless you up the shift points and limiters. But the 4l60e doesn't like high revs so expect to have to pay for a rebuild or for a built tranny fairly soon.
If you're not really worried about going much above 100mph then 3.73's would probably be a better bet.
But in reality, a stall will make a bigger difference than gears. And there are plenty of chaps running 2.73's with a stall and running as good times as those with 3.73's. So I'd be tempted to stick with what you have to begin with and see how you get on.
Also if you pay out for a gear swap and then blow your 10 bolt up, it means it was a waste of money. It might be worth waiting until you upgrade to a 12 bolt/9" Ford.
Personally I'd probably look at a 3600rpm stall, driveability shouldn't be massivily different, but it will give you better performance and will match up better if you ever get a cam.
#24
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
It's not that, I mean yeah the 2.73's will allow you to bang the 158mph speed limiter with still a few hundre rpms left in the rpm range. So top speed in gear is quite dramtically different.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
But 3.23's are IMO good for racing from a dig, as they will promote better ingear accelaration. The down side, is they leave the engine in too many dead spots for roll racing. There's link in my sig to a gear calculator, you can see all the dead spots real easy.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Such as racing from a 30-35mph roll. With 3.23's the car will NOT shift to 1st because it would be screaming it's nuts off. Yet you are way too low in the rpms for 2nd. This is the dreaded Fbody body "dead spot" so many speak off. And why even stock sn95 Stangs can get the jump under such conditions.
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
So ~35mph is a 'sweet spot' for roll racing in a 2.73's geared car. As well as being a sensible speed to start from. Any slower and you might as well go from a dig.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
For higher speed the 3.23's again have the dead spot not wanting to drop to 2nd but being again too low in the rpms. The 2.73's are less affected as the speed where it will kick down is more appropriate for roll racing.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
3.42 is a better as it still offer good terminal speed in gear (more so if you up the rpm limit to 6500rpm) but has better in gear accelaration. It also doesn't suffer the same dead spots as 3.23's. There is still one dead spot but it's not as bad, and you just have to learn not to race from that particular speed.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
3.73's have even less trouble with dead spots, as they are non existant, but these gears loose out in terminal speed and for high speed use they will ultimatley limit the cars potential. But from a dig racing over the 1/4 mile they are very ideal.
You don't need gears to get rid of the dead spot. You just need the right converter which EVERY auto LS1 should get anyway. Plus it's very well known that 2.73's make bigger stalls feel looser then they do in cars with 3.23's. This fact along the 142 mph third gear pull, 0-30 sweet spot and the 50-70 sweet spot is why I consider 3.23's > 2.73's while in the bolt on phase.
Drag racing applications usually benifit from 3.73's. I myself want to get a 9" with 3.55's inside
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#25
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Originally Posted by TXZ28LS1
so should i keep my 2.73 or bump up to 3.42? i do plan on getting a 3200 stall.
Just don't forget the tranny cooler and get TM deleted.
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Originally Posted by darrensls1
Keep them. If and when the 10 bolt breaks you can get a free gear upgrade (so to speak) if you upgrade to a 12 bolt or 9". The converter will make way more of a dramatic difference then gears would anyway.
Just don't forget the tranny cooler and get TM deleted.
Just don't forget the tranny cooler and get TM deleted.
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#28
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Originally Posted by darrensls1
I wouldn't consider it dramatically different. 142 is all ready faster then any sane human being should be driving anyway. Like I said, if the race isn't over by 142 then god help you.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
Look at my sig. I actually have 3.23 gears. So let me tell you the real deal about the dead spots. 0-30 is a beautiful place to start from. 31-40 sucks. 41-49 is a step in the right direction. 50-70 is another beautiful place to start from. It's not hard to only race from a dig, low speed roll or highway speed. In fact, it's quite easy.
And if it's not an issue, why do so many people always complain about it? Just read the street race forum here or over at SVTPerformance.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
Two words for you. Torque Converter. Bye bye dead spot ![Devil](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_devil.gif)
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Originally Posted by darrensls1
Absolutely NOT. Many people who are traction limited love to start races from a 10-30 mph roll. I have read many street kill stories that start in that range.
Roll racing is not really racing. A dig should ALWAYS be the preferred choice. Sometimes it's not possible, but if you can roll from 10mph why the hell did they not pull to a stop first.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
That only occurs over 70 mph. Ask me how I know. And anyone that wants to start a race at over 70 mph is just a little bit crazy.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
So at the end of the day the only real bad spot for 3.23's that actually matters is say 31-45. Below and above that are just fine. And a 3500 stall is all anyone needs to fix that problem and then some.
[QUOTE=darrensls1]
3.42's are generally considered a waste of time in an auto. /quote]
Again that would be arguable. And it depends what you use the car for - if this is too hard for you to understand then I'm at a loss.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
Most people will tell you to go straight to 3.73's so I'm not really sure why you are bringing this up.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
They become even more ideal when you raise shift points to 6700-7000 which many of the LS1's with bigger cams tend to do.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
You don't need gears to get rid of the dead spot. You just need the right converter which EVERY auto LS1 should get anyway.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
This fact along the 142 mph third gear pull, 0-30 sweet spot and the 50-70 sweet spot is why I consider 3.23's > 2.73's while in the bolt on phase.
Some of the races I've had 142mph would NOT be good enough. And if you are at the bolt on stage then why the **** waste money on gears instead of more sensible mods.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
Drag racing applications usually benifit from 3.73's. I myself want to get a 9" with 3.55's inside ![Devil](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_devil.gif)
![Devil](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_devil.gif)
Intent and use of the car combined with setup will affect which gears work best.
There is no one single best final drive ratio!
#29
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Yeah but remove the SPEED limiter and 2.73's will se over 160mph in 3rd. Now that's a BIG diff. Fair do it may not b what you want, but everyone is different. I want the ability to run with Ferrari's and Porsche's and not run out of gears/revs.
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And in that case then why not just get rid of the auto and go M6? Problem solved assuming you don't end up dead or in jail.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
wow you sound really butt hurt. Maybe don't take it so personal.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
And if it's not an issue, why do so many people always complain about it? Just read the street race forum here or over at SVTPerformance.
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Yes a stall will help but it will never overcome gearing deficencies.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Yes they do, and I'm baffled as to why.
Roll racing is not really racing. A dig should ALWAYS be the preferred choice. Sometimes it's not possible, but if you can roll from 10mph why the hell did they not pull to a stop first.
Roll racing is not really racing. A dig should ALWAYS be the preferred choice. Sometimes it's not possible, but if you can roll from 10mph why the hell did they not pull to a stop first.
But I can also say from personal experience that if I go WOT from a dead stop on the street I go sideways. If I go WOT from 10 mph I will spin some but not to the point that I'm not moving forward. And unless it's a real cold day I can dead hook at 25-30 while still being in my sweet spot. So I could understand why guys with less then 400 rwhp and especially on street tires would want to start a race from 10-20 mph vs a dead stop.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Lots of races occur at many different speeds. It's not every race that stages at optimal speeds. When tht jerk in the Civic cuts you up at 70mph do you floor it or slow down and hope to get out of the dead spot?
Again it's all personal choice.
Again it's all personal choice.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Again that would be arguable. And it depends what you use the car for - if this is too hard for you to understand then I'm at a loss.
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Since when has most people ever been right for EVERYONE ********!!!!
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Yes many do, but not everyone is happy too and not every cam is suitable too.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
If that's your view why are you getting so up tight because I said I prefer 2.73's for high speed and roll racing.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
6 of one half a dozen of the other.
Some of the races I've had 142mph would NOT be good enough. And if you are at the bolt on stage then why the **** waste money on gears instead of more sensible mods.
Some of the races I've had 142mph would NOT be good enough. And if you are at the bolt on stage then why the **** waste money on gears instead of more sensible mods.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Again it depends, 4.10's or even 4.56's may be the best for 'x' setup but then again 3.08 or 3.90 may work better.
Intent and use of the car combined with setup will affect which gears work best.
Intent and use of the car combined with setup will affect which gears work best.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
There is no one single best final drive ratio!
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#30
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Originally Posted by darrensls1
The law is pretty clear that 160+ is not an acceptable speed on public roads ![The Jester](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_jest.gif)
![The Jester](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_jest.gif)
Plus I plan to go to Germany on the Autobarns where section have no speed limit.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
And in that case then why not just get rid of the auto and go M6? Problem solved assuming you don't end up dead or in jail.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
It's not an issue once you put the right stall in the car ![Devil](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_devil.gif)
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Originally Posted by darrensls1
I agree with you here. I only race at NYIRP so I only race from a dig.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
I also believe that street racing (which includes) roll racing is a waste of time and a bad idea.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
The best personal choice you could make is to not endanger your life or anyone elses with a very risky and illegal high speed race on a public street.
I mean if you are so against driving quick on the street why have a fast street car? You should buy your self a 1.2 litre Honda and a track only slingshot dragster, best of both worlds then.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
The next best personal choice you could make if you like to high speed roll race is to dump the auto and get an M6.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
"most do" and "most are". Of course every setup has to be evaluated as to what stall, what gears and what shift point best suits the intended use. But we can still use "general rules of thumb" as guidlines.
If you go for a turbo or PD blower, or maybe even a long stroke large displacement n/a motor you will want taller gears (numerically lower). If you go high revving h/c or centrifugal blower then shorter gears (numerically higher) will be a better bet.
This is why you rarely see Termintors running 4.10's where as all the centrifugal GT's will be (or 3.73).
Originally Posted by darrensls1
I agree with that. For drag racing applications you have to factor in things like cam specs, tire size and which transmission you're using (4L60E, TH400, ect). But for a street car that has a stock motor you can still resort to the old rule of thumb of 4.10's in a M6 and 3.73's for an A4.
It may be an "old rule" but it is very narrow minded and flawed.
Originally Posted by darrensls1
Absolutely true. But there was a reason that they called the 3.23's a performance upgrade to the 2.73's and not the other way around ![Happy](https://ls1tech.com/forums/images/smilies/LS1Tech/gr_stretch.gif)
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#31
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Yeah but the speed limit here is 70mph and not too long back was 55mph in the US. It never stopped anyone then.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Plus I plan to go to Germany on the Autobarns where section have no speed limit.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
In a way, except I have an AUTO and it costs far too many £££££ to change to a M6, even more so when parts are not readily available here. Plus finding a M6 Fbody is like looking for hens teeth.
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Gearing still has an affect. But the right stall can cover it up very well. But again it depends on use and intent.
1). Lid
2). Catback/cutout
3). Stall with tranny cooler
4). Crow bar to pry the smile off your face
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Dig racing is great, but the roads in the UK don't permit it very often and the nearest drag strip is a long way off and expensive.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
So roll racing is the most likely scenario. One thing roll racing does show, is which car is actually quicker as it removes nearly all of the driver involvment. From a dig a slower car being well driven can often easily beat a badly driven faster car. This is unlikely from a roll.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
The debate for street racing should not be part of this thread. But if you seriously expect me to believe you have never open the taps on the street (by your self or when others are near by) then your bonkers.
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
I mean if you are so against driving quick on the street why have a fast street car? You should buy your self a 1.2 litre Honda and a track only slingshot dragster, best of both worlds then.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
As already stated this is not applicable. And besides if you are caught by surprise on the street an auto will react much quicker than a manual. Not every race has time to stage. In fact 98% of street racing in the UK is cat and mouse style and there will be no lining up and waiting to go.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
They can be, but they are very very very general. So much so as the fact they are pretty useless.
If you go for a turbo or PD blower, or maybe even a long stroke large displacement n/a motor you will want taller gears (numerically lower). If you go high revving h/c or centrifugal blower then shorter gears (numerically higher) will be a better bet.
If you go for a turbo or PD blower, or maybe even a long stroke large displacement n/a motor you will want taller gears (numerically lower). If you go high revving h/c or centrifugal blower then shorter gears (numerically higher) will be a better bet.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
This is why you rarely see Termintors running 4.10's where as all the centrifugal GT's will be (or 3.73).
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
It may be an "old rule" but it is very narrow minded and flawed.
Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Yes because from a dig it will be faster, and theoretically better in gear accelaration. However I do believe that from certain speeds a stock 2.73 geared LS1 will beat a stock 3.23 geared car from a roll. And if you did race on a 2 mile runway (not public road) from 0-150mph the 2.73 geared car would most likely win, providing both cars are stock.
But here are my problems. There is no road here in Rochester, NY USA that I can drive 0-150 legally. There is no cop here in Rochester, NY USA that will not throw my *** in jail if he catches me trying to hit 150 mph. There is no words of comfort that will console my wife and three children if I were to kill myself driving 150 mph. And there is no words of comfort that would console me if I were to kill someone else because I had to drive 150 mph.
It's just not worth it. And for 99% of the people out there 3.23's are a slightly better gear, 150 mph is not an option and tracks are viable alternatives. If you fit in that 1% that has to roll race, has to drive over 142 mph and has to do it on public streets then I just hope your life insurance is paid up and may god be with you.
#32
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my car is a daily driver street car. its never gonna see the track at all. its used for going to work and back.. and every once in a while, street race. so should i keep my 2.73 and get a stall, or go with both? i heard 3.42 are the best all around gear. i want something that pulls hard like a ****.
#33
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Originally Posted by TXZ28LS1
my car is a daily driver street car. its never gonna see the track at all. its used for going to work and back.. and every once in a while, street race. so should i keep my 2.73 and get a stall, or go with both? i heard 3.42 are the best all around gear. i want something that pulls hard like a ****.
I personally think gears will cost more than they are worth if you already have the stall. This will allow you to spend the money on other mods until you decide to upgrade the rear or go for a wild cam which requires minimal of 3.42 gears.
#35
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Originally Posted by TXZ28LS1
im leaning with mti x1 cam. 230/227. i think that cam would need atleast a 3.42 gear.
If the cars acceleration seems too loose for your taste then I would consider either 3.42's or 3.73's to tighten things up a bit. Otherwise just keep the 2.73's and enjoy the better gas mileage.
Good luck.
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Originally Posted by 300bhp/ton
Also I'd be tempted to not get anything less than a 3600rpm stall. It shouldn't affect normal driveability too much but will be a better match if you ever get a cam. 4000rpm stalls are often a little OTT for most people.
most consider this stall a tad big for a 2.73 car,
a 4000 stalled car with a 3.42 gear seems a good mix and will have hardly any dead spots.
#38
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Originally Posted by TXZ28LS1
so are you guys saying 2.73 are better than the other gears for roll racing? i can see where it makes sense cuz at higher speeds!!
If you want to race 50-150 then yes. If you want to race 30-130 then no. But no matter what the M6's have a clear advantage at any speed other then a stop
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#40
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Originally Posted by TXZ28LS1
so the 3.42 would be overall better than the 2.73? damn..this is an actually interesting thread. cuz alot of people say the 2.73 blow... but i do get damn good gas mileage with the 2.73, and they do pull pretty hard.
1). Because they offer the least performance in quarter mile drag racing which is the number one form of racing F-bodies like to do.
2). Because they tend to make bigger stalls feel even looser which causes a lot of people to dislike them.
But on the other side of the coin you get better MPG and can hold third gear till 160+. I think overall a 3500 stall + 3.42's make a real sweet combonation. But if your not into drag racing the 2.73's are a pretty nice gear to have.