camaro_best

95 here per liter 0.16$
91 per liter 0.08$

all time 95 at all my cars ...

Mr Incredible

I have read it. And, most importantly, I UNDERSTAND it. The part you appear to be IGNORING is this:

" ...for best performance. "

I understand that most posters to this web are testosterone driven 20-somethings that can't imagine somebody not wanting Best Performace at every second of the day "just in case a Mustang wants to mess with you."

News Flash-There are those kind of people in the world. More than you estimate.

So, you can step down from your high horse and please re-read (again) that most important qualifying statement.

87 octane is an approved fuel. That you wouldn't dirty yourself to use it is not the question.

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

I don't think you understand how the octane tables in the PCM work...

After you fill up with a certain amount of gas, the PCM looks to the high octane timing table, regardless of what grade of gas you use. The fuel tank has no sensor to determine octane...this should come as no surprise to you.

So...you decide to be a cheap bastard and save a few pennies by putting in 87 octane. Good for you. With that wonderful 87 octane, your engine will most likely start knocking, and is why you have knock sensors...they are an integral part of the high/low octane tables. Once your engine starts knocking, the timing starts to take on values between those two tables, depending on how bad the knock is. How far skewed the timing is to the low octane table is a function of how severe and how frequent the knock is...if the PCM hasn't detected knock for a while, it'll start skewing back towards the high octane table.

As you most likely know, there is a lag time for all of this to happen...nothing happens instantaneously. So, your engine gets to suffer the consequences of running shitty fuel every single time you fuel up your car due to how the PCM works until it can learn, once again, that you were indeed a cheap bastard.

But hey...it is your car. If it makes you sleep better at night, then so be it.

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

And here is the same type of information, only from the HPTuners help file:

Main Spark Tables
The VCM constantly looks up both High Octane and Low Octane spark tables and interpolates a value between the two tables based on the current Knock Learn factor. If the engine has been operating for a moderate time without any Knock Retard then Knock Learn is zero and the interpolation favors the High Octane table, if Knock has been detected then the interpolation will move towards the Low Octane table. During MAF failure the Knock Learn is set to maximum and the Low Octane table is used (HP Tuners speed density enhancements allow both spark tables to function).


Note: Excessive spark advance will cause knock (detonation, pinging) and lead to severe engine damage. Do NOT rely on knock sensors as the only source of detecting knock during tuning.

Mr Incredible

I thank you for the less-than-hysterical response.

However, I have read and I understand what you related. It is the same information I have read before.

My car is untuned. It is stock. I have had timing pulled in my car and have felt the difference it makes. It doesn't always happen. I have never heard a knock out of my car. I do not always use 87 and I do not beat my car like a rented mule as do so many of our young and impressionable posters.

In short, I hear, I understand, and it doesn't change anything in my opinion of 87 octane fuels.

Just because I have a gas pedal hooked up to a powerful engine doesn't mean that I HAVE to use it at every opportunity. Sane driving is, perhaps, the key. But, alas, it may be an idea beyond the scope of comprehension for many.

98TADRIVER

iTrader: (36)

you cant run 87 octane and expect it to run good above 3k rpm. it will be pinging and spark knocking like crazy and thats bad. however if you use hp tuners and tune it for 87 octane, it would run fine. my friend tuned his FRC vette and it runs just as good on 87 as our cars with a stock tune run on 93. i had someone put 87 in my car unknowingly and i didnt notice a difference but i was also keeping the rpms low on the highway with no passing. the second i jumped on the throttle, all i heard was pinging

Mr Incredible

Hmmmm. That is exactly opposite of what I have experienced when I've run 87 octane for an extended period without a tune.

scottso

Regardless of how unpopular it is, I am on your side Mr Incredible. My car (both last and this one) are daily drivers. I'm not running to the track, nor am I looking to kill the guy next to me at the stoplight (99% of the time).

Am I compromising my ultimate performance? Yes, I guess I sure am. But I could care less if I shave a tenth or two off of a quarter mile. I enjoy driving the car. I am not hearing knocking or pinging - nor did I hear it when I used to fill my LT1 with 87. Call me cheap if you must - but I drive these cars because I enjoy them - not because I have to be the fastest car around. The few extra bucks saved goes to my kids - if I was a 20 something without kids it may be different.

And, if I am not mistaken temp and altitude has a lot to do with octane requirements. So with the posters from across the country - it may not even be an accurate comparison.

LordOfChaos

iTrader: (3)

i only run 93 since i got my tune. i put 87 in once (accident and the car detested it.

BEFORE my tune (back in 04 lol), i could put 87 in it and as long as I wasnt hammering on it i didnt get knock, or even ping (that was hearable at least).

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

Mr. Incredible

Most people don't even know what to listen for when it comes to knock, so I'm not surprised that you haven't heard the knocking with your own ears...everyone hears a little differently, so I'm not inclined to believe your anecdotal evidence that your car is indeed not pulling any timing or knocking. I would, however, believe you if you had hard evidence to back this up, like a data log from scanning some parameters from the OBD-II port.

You clearly don't sound like you drive your car hard, but it doesn't take hard driving to trigger knock...I have experienced more knock from cruising conditions than WOT, and it usually happens under a heavy load and low RPMs (like going up a hill). I wouldn't consider driving my car to work to be hard on it, but it still presents conditions where knock can and does occur.

That's the whole thing with knock sensors...they have to hear knock before they pull timing, so the damage is already being done before the PCM can correct for the condition. The way the algorithm is written, the PCM assumes that you are using good gas, and corrects if it detects an engine condition that suggests otherwise. So overall, you are increasing your chances of doing damage by knowingly putting the grade of gas in your tank that the PCM was told was the exception, not the norm.

How much damage could you be doing? If I could quantify that, I'd probably be working for GM and not the Air Force. But I can tell you one thing...the code wouldn't be in the PCM if it wasn't a real threat to the overall longevity of the engine, and no computer code is fool-proof.

Mr Incredible

You have no idea how much I know or what I have experienced, so you disinclination speaks only of your personal boundaries, not my beliefs.



Ain't gonna happen. Couldn't care less.


Oh, Really? How would you know? This simple statement just showed your ignorance. What else don't you have a clue about?

Just because I don't drive around with a hardon, ready to pounce on anything that looks slower than me, does that mean I don't ever mash the gas?



You're really sure? Or, is this another generalization and assumption? Where's YOUR facts? YOU show ME where GM says this, not some tuner somewhere that makes money off people believing it.


And so, finally, you admit you don't know how much, therefore it's only an assumption that it's happening at all. I spent time in the AF as well, and knew many that worked at GM & Ford. Neither means you're smart or not smart. I've seen 'em all at both places.

But, in the end, you're only assuming. Not knowing. And if GM is so stinkin' smart and agree with you, why did they not say to never, EVER use 87?

You guys are such a hoot to listen to. ****-sure that your vision of the world is the only one and that anyone else's actual experience CAN'T be valid.

LS1 FORMULA

Cant we all just get along. Thanks for the laughs. This was funny!!!!!

Brads LS1 02Z

iTrader: (16)

ive always went with 93 but i did recently start using shell only and have noticed it gets about an extura 2 mpg

Websy21

iTrader: (34)

Wow, no kidding but personally I don't know why anybody would want to run 87 in an ls1

MeentSS02

iTrader: (11)

Mr. Incredible...you really disappoint me. You clearly can't argue the points since you took my statements as personal attacks. You keep telling yourself that 87 octane is the best gas to use in your application. I hope no one reads into the bullshit that comes out of your mouth...if you ever want to have a civil discussion, just send me an email or something. I find it easier to ignore users like you than justify your response.

Mr Incredible

Meent, how could I possibly take your statements personally since I couldn't care less about what you think of me?

If you can't take refutations of your arguments and logic, that's your issue not mine. You presented nothing but opinions. I presented actual experience and the plain words from the owner's manual.

You ignored the fact that 87 is allowable in the owner's manual. My experience is my own, and, again, it's irrelevant to me what you think of it.

But if you're going to make an iron-clad claim, you need iron-clad facts. You don't have them. My only reason for extending our "conversation" is to show that fact and hope that people don't take YOUR opinion as gospel.

And, Duh, I never said 87 was the best application. I am only relating my experience that it is an alternative and it won't make your car blow up. You're the one that's getting their knickers in a twist about it.

Geez, some people's children...

speedshifterNC

iTrader: (1)

MeentSSo2 is simply trying to say...WHATS THE POINT OF HAVING AN AWESOME ENGINE IN AN AWESOME CAR IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO RUN IT HARD AND GIVE IT WHAT IT LIKES?!!! Just get a civic if you want a daily driver that gets good gas mileage. As for the majority on here, we'll have our cake and eat it too.

SStingray

iTrader: (24)

87 in an LS1 is like giving a poor defenseless kitten antifreeze to drink.

bmxer8699

iTrader: (16)

your a cheapass, buy a honda if you want to save a few pennies. gtfo out of the racing game if you cant pay to play

Gordon0652

iTrader: (4)

My grandfather put 87 in his 2000 firebird, and 87 in his 1999 Corvette. Never had a problem, until someone hit and totalled his vette, but that wants gas related.
Now i have the 2000 Firebird and it never sees 87.
93 baby!