HSW and Nitrous Outlet 90mm plates?
09-28-2010, 03:06 PM
#21
Man,
You should be about to the point of pushing that fuel system for everything its worth. You have a cam only motor right? So I am assuming 420 or so on motor?
IF the plate is flowing enough to support up 250 extra hp you should already be seeing a fumble in fuel pressure. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge?
As for the lean spike... How bad is it. You still have one with that large of a difference in short hoses?
Dave
You should be about to the point of pushing that fuel system for everything its worth. You have a cam only motor right? So I am assuming 420 or so on motor?
IF the plate is flowing enough to support up 250 extra hp you should already be seeing a fumble in fuel pressure. Do you have a fuel pressure gauge?
As for the lean spike... How bad is it. You still have one with that large of a difference in short hoses?
Dave
I didnt have the wideband on the car for these last 3 passes but on prior passes with the 200 it would spike at the hit but as soon as the motor loaded it was right where we wanted it.
09-28-2010, 03:28 PM
#22
The spike can be from 1 of two things.
Has nothing to do with running the system rich or lean, atleast not at the difference between 1 or 2 points in air fuel. It has to do with delivery demand of volume once the solenoid opens creating a pull from the factory style fuel system. As well as the travel speed of the nitrous vs fuel through the nitrous system.
The fact of having to run a 10 inch spread on hose lenth even with them short shows the travel speed delay from the nitrous vs the fuel on the nitrous system. As you tax the fuel system that issue will stack up on top of the other issue.
I am sure you already know this. Just stating why I was asking the questions I was.
What fuel jet did you have with the 87 jet?
Dave
Has nothing to do with running the system rich or lean, atleast not at the difference between 1 or 2 points in air fuel. It has to do with delivery demand of volume once the solenoid opens creating a pull from the factory style fuel system. As well as the travel speed of the nitrous vs fuel through the nitrous system.
The fact of having to run a 10 inch spread on hose lenth even with them short shows the travel speed delay from the nitrous vs the fuel on the nitrous system. As you tax the fuel system that issue will stack up on top of the other issue.
I am sure you already know this. Just stating why I was asking the questions I was.
What fuel jet did you have with the 87 jet?
Dave
09-28-2010, 04:01 PM
#24
OK,
So 87N and 40F. I do not have there ratings but I assume its something like 87N and 44-46F. Maybe the car just needed that tune up. But as you move up in the power level if it seems like you increase the suggested jets and the car just gets richer you have hit the max amount of flow the nitrous system can flow nitrous wise.
You may be at this point now which would be why you are getting away with the fuel system you have. You may have a 87 jet in it but it may not be flowing that amount of nitrous.
Easy way to tell would be to do a 10 second flow test. It will tell you if you are actually flowing 250hp worth of nitrous or if you have maxed out what the system can do. You may find out you are only flowing around 200-225 worth.
Not saying that is the case.. Just throwing it out there.
Dave
If you start moving up in the power level and it seems like the car is not getting any faster and the fuel is just getting richer you have hit the point the system is flowing all the nitrous it can.
So 87N and 40F. I do not have there ratings but I assume its something like 87N and 44-46F. Maybe the car just needed that tune up. But as you move up in the power level if it seems like you increase the suggested jets and the car just gets richer you have hit the max amount of flow the nitrous system can flow nitrous wise.
You may be at this point now which would be why you are getting away with the fuel system you have. You may have a 87 jet in it but it may not be flowing that amount of nitrous.
Easy way to tell would be to do a 10 second flow test. It will tell you if you are actually flowing 250hp worth of nitrous or if you have maxed out what the system can do. You may find out you are only flowing around 200-225 worth.
Not saying that is the case.. Just throwing it out there.
Dave
If you start moving up in the power level and it seems like the car is not getting any faster and the fuel is just getting richer you have hit the point the system is flowing all the nitrous it can.
09-28-2010, 05:03 PM
#26
See now you are making generalizations based off of jetting alone and I feel as if you are insulting our intelligence as well as another companies product.
If we were to follow what everybody else was doing and listening to people tell us what we can and cannot do, we would be nowhere near where we are at right now. I have listened to this kind of stuff the whole time building this car. To tell you a little something about us, we do everything based off our knowledge alone and then consult different opinions and then test those ideas after. We are going for real world results and that is what we have done so far.
Do you really think that we increased the jet and saw no gain but still left it in there thinking it makes more power? that would be stupid... theres a reason that that jet is in there, because it makes more power then the smaller jet. a 20 mph gain in the 1/8 alone helps with that fact.
You should also know weather effects jetting on tuneups. A tuneup in 0 da compared to 6000 da will be very different on fuel and timing. Ecsp. when you are pushing parts to the max you need to be very close on the tuneup with these weather changes. Also you should know that even though a plate can flow x amount, a motor can only ingest x amount. So even though a product can flow x amount and you keep increasing jet and it doesnt pick up, it could also be the motor/heads not being able combust anymore. So there is many variables in that.
Yes a flow test would explain everything, but as of right now we have zero problems with our flow or jetting and its not an issue. It doesnt matter what companies plate I have on the car, we would be doing our own thing on jetting because that's what we know how to do. This isnt HSW flows more then Nitrous Outlet, but you start to turn it that by automatically discrediting the plate because we run less fuel then most. Come on now. We aren't that dumb.
Cam
If we were to follow what everybody else was doing and listening to people tell us what we can and cannot do, we would be nowhere near where we are at right now. I have listened to this kind of stuff the whole time building this car. To tell you a little something about us, we do everything based off our knowledge alone and then consult different opinions and then test those ideas after. We are going for real world results and that is what we have done so far.
Do you really think that we increased the jet and saw no gain but still left it in there thinking it makes more power? that would be stupid... theres a reason that that jet is in there, because it makes more power then the smaller jet. a 20 mph gain in the 1/8 alone helps with that fact.
You should also know weather effects jetting on tuneups. A tuneup in 0 da compared to 6000 da will be very different on fuel and timing. Ecsp. when you are pushing parts to the max you need to be very close on the tuneup with these weather changes. Also you should know that even though a plate can flow x amount, a motor can only ingest x amount. So even though a product can flow x amount and you keep increasing jet and it doesnt pick up, it could also be the motor/heads not being able combust anymore. So there is many variables in that.
Yes a flow test would explain everything, but as of right now we have zero problems with our flow or jetting and its not an issue. It doesnt matter what companies plate I have on the car, we would be doing our own thing on jetting because that's what we know how to do. This isnt HSW flows more then Nitrous Outlet, but you start to turn it that by automatically discrediting the plate because we run less fuel then most. Come on now. We aren't that dumb.
Cam
09-28-2010, 05:11 PM
#27
There is an interesting trend going on and it changes at 150
52 100
57 125
62 150
78 200
88 250
93 300
it flows well between 100-150, doest flow as well from 150-200 and then flows better from 250-300.
09-28-2010, 06:12 PM
#28
See now you are making generalizations based off of jetting alone and I feel as if you are insulting our intelligence as well as another companies product.
If we were to follow what everybody else was doing and listening to people tell us what we can and cannot do, we would be nowhere near where we are at right now. I have listened to this kind of stuff the whole time building this car. To tell you a little something about us, we do everything based off our knowledge alone and then consult different opinions and then test those ideas after. We are going for real world results and that is what we have done so far.
Do you really think that we increased the jet and saw no gain but still left it in there thinking it makes more power? that would be stupid... theres a reason that that jet is in there, because it makes more power then the smaller jet. a 20 mph gain in the 1/8 alone helps with that fact.
You should also know weather effects jetting on tuneups. A tuneup in 0 da compared to 6000 da will be very different on fuel and timing. Ecsp. when you are pushing parts to the max you need to be very close on the tuneup with these weather changes. Also you should know that even though a plate can flow x amount, a motor can only ingest x amount. So even though a product can flow x amount and you keep increasing jet and it doesnt pick up, it could also be the motor/heads not being able combust anymore. So there is many variables in that.
Yes a flow test would explain everything, but as of right now we have zero problems with our flow or jetting and its not an issue. It doesnt matter what companies plate I have on the car, we would be doing our own thing on jetting because that's what we know how to do. This isnt HSW flows more then Nitrous Outlet, but you start to turn it that by automatically discrediting the plate because we run less fuel then most. Come on now. We aren't that dumb.
Cam
If we were to follow what everybody else was doing and listening to people tell us what we can and cannot do, we would be nowhere near where we are at right now. I have listened to this kind of stuff the whole time building this car. To tell you a little something about us, we do everything based off our knowledge alone and then consult different opinions and then test those ideas after. We are going for real world results and that is what we have done so far.
Do you really think that we increased the jet and saw no gain but still left it in there thinking it makes more power? that would be stupid... theres a reason that that jet is in there, because it makes more power then the smaller jet. a 20 mph gain in the 1/8 alone helps with that fact.
You should also know weather effects jetting on tuneups. A tuneup in 0 da compared to 6000 da will be very different on fuel and timing. Ecsp. when you are pushing parts to the max you need to be very close on the tuneup with these weather changes. Also you should know that even though a plate can flow x amount, a motor can only ingest x amount. So even though a product can flow x amount and you keep increasing jet and it doesnt pick up, it could also be the motor/heads not being able combust anymore. So there is many variables in that.
Yes a flow test would explain everything, but as of right now we have zero problems with our flow or jetting and its not an issue. It doesnt matter what companies plate I have on the car, we would be doing our own thing on jetting because that's what we know how to do. This isnt HSW flows more then Nitrous Outlet, but you start to turn it that by automatically discrediting the plate because we run less fuel then most. Come on now. We aren't that dumb.
Cam
Please dont take offence. Im not banging the product you are using..Nor am I trying to insult your intelligence. I thought we were having a good discussion here. Its nothing more than that.
In the post we were talking about flowing X amount of hp. You stated you were using a 87 jet which should be equivelant of about 250 rear wheel hp. A jet is nothing more than a restrictor and just because you have X size jet in the hole does not mean you are actually flowing that amount of nitrous through the system.
You made a comment of having a lean spike as well as not using as much fuel jet as you expected. So I just asked about your set up.
According to you your have a cam and bolt on application that should be making about 420 or so on motor. Then you are thinking you are adding about another 250hp in nitrous which puts you at 670hp with nothing more than a racetronix fuel system.
From my experience we see on an average of about 650 out of the race tronix before we start to see fuel delivery issues with the racetronix.
Since you have stated you have a lean spike I just listed the two issues that could be causing the spike.
Yes I know DA can play a role in tune up, but truth is Nitrous Is weather in the bottle and it does not play near as huge as a roll as with a boosted car.
Since you stated you were using a smaller fuel pill than expected I simply took that remark VS the fuel system you have and stated you should flow the system to see if you are truely flowing the amount of power you think you are. You may have hit a wall and dont relize it. There for not spraying as much as you assume.
Its not a jab at the your set up.. I am sharing some knowledge with you. It could be something as simple as a fitting restricting flow.
I am not taking anything from your achievements as you have done a great job But I do know more about this than you do.. After all I have been doing it for a long, time every single day of my life..
I am simply saying the facts show there could be an issue. I am sure we both aggree you are at the point of needing a fuel system.
Dave
Last edited by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet; 09-28-2010 at 06:22 PM.
09-28-2010, 06:16 PM
#29
are you using the same N/F ratio for all these tuneups because they are drastically different per every 50 hp?
There is an interesting trend going on and it changes at 150
52 100
57 125
62 150
78 200
88 250
93 300
it flows well between 100-150, doest flow as well from 150-200 and then flows better from 250-300.
There is an interesting trend going on and it changes at 150
52 100
57 125
62 150
78 200
88 250
93 300
it flows well between 100-150, doest flow as well from 150-200 and then flows better from 250-300.
Our jetting is way rich for the 50-150hp. We purposly did it that way because when we took 3 different cars to testing we had 3 different airfuels. Back then there was alot of gray area as people were making dumb choices. It was better there set up be rich and us teach them than it be to lean and they hurt the motor..
I know you are young but back in the day people use to be posting blowsing **** up left and right with there TNT and other systems. WE wanted to teach the guys and add in a added matter of safety.
We are currently building a new flow bench here in the shop and we will be re doing all of our jetting maps..
Tommorow I will post what the old jetting actually called for before we added the extra safety area.
Dave
09-28-2010, 06:26 PM
#30
Hp levels are the last thing im thinking about. We are about going down the track as quick as possible. If it takes 400hp to do that or 700hp to do that we will find someway to get there.
Its not an argument, just making sure we are on the same page. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
09-28-2010, 06:30 PM
#31
We have been over this like a 1000 times already
Our jetting is way rich for the 50-150hp. We purposly did it that way because when we took 3 different cars to testing we had 3 different airfuels. Back then there was alot of gray area as people were making dumb choices. It was better there set up be rich and us teach them than it be to lean and they hurt the motor..
I know you are young but back in the day people use to be posting blowsing **** up left and right with there TNT and other systems. WE wanted to teach the guys and add in a added matter of safety.
We are currently building a new flow bench here in the shop and we will be re doing all of our jetting maps..
Tommorow I will post what the old jetting actually called for before we added the extra safety area.
Dave
Our jetting is way rich for the 50-150hp. We purposly did it that way because when we took 3 different cars to testing we had 3 different airfuels. Back then there was alot of gray area as people were making dumb choices. It was better there set up be rich and us teach them than it be to lean and they hurt the motor..
I know you are young but back in the day people use to be posting blowsing **** up left and right with there TNT and other systems. WE wanted to teach the guys and add in a added matter of safety.
We are currently building a new flow bench here in the shop and we will be re doing all of our jetting maps..
Tommorow I will post what the old jetting actually called for before we added the extra safety area.
Dave
09-28-2010, 06:35 PM
#32
Sorry but I dont go by so and so saw their system fail at 650 so mine wont either, or so and so only went this fast etc. Thats being inside the box. We need a fuel system when we have a fuel delivery problem and we have not experienced that yet. I assure you we will know when that happens. You keep forgetting its not just me with knowledge in this car, there is my pops as well who has been doing it far longer then me. We know what were doing. I thank you for your knowledge but we have thought of everything you have stated and know when x happens when will do y to fix it.
Hp levels are the last thing im thinking about. We are about going down the track as quick as possible. If it takes 400hp to do that or 700hp to do that we will find someway to get there.
Its not an argument, just making sure we are on the same page. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
Hp levels are the last thing im thinking about. We are about going down the track as quick as possible. If it takes 400hp to do that or 700hp to do that we will find someway to get there.
Its not an argument, just making sure we are on the same page. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.
You have a lean spike.
You dont have a fuel gauge to watch fuel pressure
You have not put it on a dyno to varify the amount of power gained
You have not flowed the system to see what amount of nitrous its flowing.
How do you know you are flowing 250hp worth of nitrous?
How do you know you are not starting to have a fuel system issue?
Im simply saying with the info you have stated that there is a possibility you are not making the power you think you are based off what you have said. Just look at what I am telling you with an open mind. You may have more room for growth with your set up.
Dave
Last edited by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet; 09-28-2010 at 06:42 PM.
09-28-2010, 07:18 PM
#34
Ok, Lets just talk simple hard facts...
You have a lean spike.
You dont have a fuel gauge to watch fuel pressure
You have not put it on a dyno to varify the amount of power gained
You have not flowed the system to see what amount of nitrous its flowing.
How do you know you are flowing 250hp worth of nitrous?
How do you know you are not starting to have a fuel system issue?
Im simply saying with the info you have stated that there is a possibility you are not making the power you think you are based off what you have said. Just look at what I am telling you with an open mind. You may have more room for growth with your set up.
Dave
You have a lean spike.
You dont have a fuel gauge to watch fuel pressure
You have not put it on a dyno to varify the amount of power gained
You have not flowed the system to see what amount of nitrous its flowing.
How do you know you are flowing 250hp worth of nitrous?
How do you know you are not starting to have a fuel system issue?
Im simply saying with the info you have stated that there is a possibility you are not making the power you think you are based off what you have said. Just look at what I am telling you with an open mind. You may have more room for growth with your set up.
Dave
We have a pressure gauge and there is no change in flow
Why would I put the car on the dyno? I dont care to know because of difference in drivetrain, weather, real load etc.
You dont know if I have more on the table because you have done neither of those things with my car nor looked at any of my data. Again there is always more on the table but no one knows where in certain.
I understand what you are saying but none of it indeed is fact
09-28-2010, 09:02 PM
#36
A lean spike is going to be there, nitrous gets there before fuel and not under load, its not a fuel system issue ie running out of fuel.
We have a pressure gauge and there is no change in flow
Why would I put the car on the dyno? I dont care to know because of difference in drivetrain, weather, real load etc.
You dont know if I have more on the table because you have done neither of those things with my car nor looked at any of my data. Again there is always more on the table but no one knows where in certain.
I understand what you are saying but none of it indeed is fact
We have a pressure gauge and there is no change in flow
Why would I put the car on the dyno? I dont care to know because of difference in drivetrain, weather, real load etc.
You dont know if I have more on the table because you have done neither of those things with my car nor looked at any of my data. Again there is always more on the table but no one knows where in certain.
I understand what you are saying but none of it indeed is fact
Ok, Getting back to the original conversation we were discussing flowing 250,300 hp on a plate.
You stated you were spraying 250 through your plate and that you have made 3 passes on a 87 jet which should produce enough flow for 250hp.
Yet you have none of the info to prove you are actually flowing 250 hp worth of nitrous through your system.
The data you have given me with estimated horsepower range, jetting spread and no fuel pressure drop with the fuel system you have suggest you may not be flowing as much nitrous as you think you are. (Key word MAY)
Asking if you had it on a dyno was simply because if you had you would be able to see the power increase as a generic form of power varification. Track results have to many varibles.
Simply doing a flow consuption test would tell you if you are actually flowing enough nitrous to generate an extra the 250hp. If your not you can look for the bottle neck in the system. It could be something as simple as a main feed line restriction, fittings etc.
Simple test..
Take a full bottle with a digital scale. Hook the bottle to the main feed line and purge the air out of the system.
Weigh the bottle and see what it weighs.
Then with a stop watch fire the nitrous system for 10 seconds.
Then with out un hooking anything take the bottle and see what it weighs after the 10 second blast.
You will burn .8lbs per every 100 hp per every 10 seconds.
By the way... The last 5 or 10 Nitrous Outlet plate systems I have tuned has not had a lean spike at all... And we have equal lenth 2 ft hoses from our solenoids to the plate.. Just alittle food for thought.
Dave
09-28-2010, 09:09 PM
#37
Dave Im well aware what to do to test a system. I dont care enough to do all that unless you want to pay for my time and effort. We would be in the same position if I were running your plate so what does it matter? there would still be a big IF(MAY) on the board on everything you mentioned. I dont care whose flows more then the other, but I can tell you one thing is that MY plate works and that is certain.
09-28-2010, 09:21 PM
#38
I dont understand why you have such an attitude..
Facts are. Your results suggest a huge possibility that you are not flowing the amount of nitrous you stated you are. I was just trying to help you.. But you have a chip on your shoulders. I have never been anything but nice to you.
I could care less whose plate you have..Facts are facts..
We are here for the fun of the sport. Loose the attitude.....
Geezz
Dave
Facts are. Your results suggest a huge possibility that you are not flowing the amount of nitrous you stated you are. I was just trying to help you.. But you have a chip on your shoulders. I have never been anything but nice to you.
I could care less whose plate you have..Facts are facts..
We are here for the fun of the sport. Loose the attitude.....
Geezz
Dave
09-28-2010, 09:34 PM
#39
It's your opinion, but you don't know if you are right or wrong. Your basing it on rwhp but who's dyno are we using because we could make 600 on one and 700 on another. So now what do we do? One says I don't have enough fuel and one says I do.
There are too many ifs and maybes. The car runs fine and there is not one issue yet. When we get to that point then we will make changes. There is no need to spend money on something that may be happening. Facts are facts.
There are too many ifs and maybes. The car runs fine and there is not one issue yet. When we get to that point then we will make changes. There is no need to spend money on something that may be happening. Facts are facts.