ocshaman

I have been reading up on using methanol, or water and methanol on the fuel side of a nitrous system. I keep hearing that the nitrous will freeze the water. I don't understand the science behind it. I hear that nitrous is cold, but not that cold, and I don't see how it can drop a liquid like water's temp to freezing. Can someone point me to the math behind it?

got-a-ls1

iTrader: (12)

nitrous discharges at -137º... should answer your question.

NitrousExpress

iTrader: (4)

Really? I would love to hear the rest of your thoughts on this.


What mix are you using on the water/meth system?

Water/meth in the traditional sense is not a fuel. Methanol is however, by itself a fuel. Many people run this. Very simple to setup and understand.

I can go over anything you would like to go over. I think this is a great topic for discussion as it is seldom talked about here.

ocshaman

I currently have a turbo car and I am using 50/50 by volume. I want to see about the problems and hurdles of using the kit as the fuel side of a wet kit. Right now, this is in the understanding phase. I am trying to wrap my head around why, then I will move on to how. Call it the engineer in me. I understand that meth has a lower freezing point than water, but I am not understanding, and can't find, the amount of energy(lack of a better term) it takes to freeze water. Since it takes so much to boil it, the 2+2=4 answer says it should be that hard to freeze it.

KFZ)^

iTrader: (1)

anheuserbusch08

iTrader: (11)

este pendejo no habla ingles por FAVOR espiKE en english plees

Slowc5

iTrader: (2)

I am waiting for some answers..My set-up has nitrous and meth.

ocshaman

Let's gather some info. I have been told that the methanol nozzle, in comparison to fuel, needs to be 1.5 times the size, up to 3 times the size. I read that methanol is better for the wet side, because it's stoich value is wider, meaning you don't have to be as exact as gasoline to get a good tune. It also has a lower latency of evaporation, and will suck out more heat. Stoich is 6.5:1, with peak torque coming in at 5.5:1, same ratio(14.7->12.5) as gasoline.

1 gallon of gasoline = 125000 Btu
1 gallon methanol = 62800 Btu

But at three times the volume for the same stoich, you get more BTUs. This is where the math, and lack of knowledge of nitrous hinder. What is the fuel flow tuned to on nitrous? BTUs, mass, stoich? YOu only need 2 times the meth for the same BTU, but 3 times for the same stoich.

Pwebbz28

iTrader: (31)

Think its actually -127 but damn cold either way!

krambo

iTrader: (4)

Well, to comment on your first question, your Water and Methanol mixture is miscible. The water and methanol actually form weak hydrogen bonds and are not actually just methanol and water. Being that you have a homogenious mixture at 50/50% (Meth/H2O), just pull up any freeze point methanol based solution table and find the freezing point at your concentration. 50/50 is roughly -47*F. Your intake temperatures will need to be below -47*F in order to, in theory, freeze your water and methanol solution.

Nitrous Oxide has a boiling point (I guess what "got-a-ls1" was referring to) of just over -127*F or -88.5*C. When sprayed into an intake, the (hopefully liquid phase...lower than -127*F) N2O boils off into a gas at this temperature. The resulting phase change dramatically cools off the intake charge however with air friction, heat present in the intake path / cylindars and the VERY short time your mixture is exposed to the Nitrous, I personally doubt any freezing will occur. Now, if you were spraying a metric *** ton of nitrous then there is a possibility of freezing the meth/water mix.

To comment on your second question about running meth for the fuel side of your nitrous kit...sure, why not, people have done it before. The freezing point of pure meth is about -143*F and should be just fine with the nitrous (in gas form) from a "freezing" perspective. As for tuning, I would calculate the relationship based on specific gravity and STOICH of the fuel. I found some guys that did this (run meth instead of gasoline) and that by doubling the fuel pressure to the fuel jet seemed to get them close to the same AFR as the gasoline. I would just call the nitrous pros and ask them for a jetting list. I am sure they have one or could steer you in the right direction.

krissoto

iTrader: (3)

pretty interesting info.

KFZ)^

iTrader: (1)

yeah i dig the methanol, but why the h2o?

ocshaman

No real point persay, but more of a way to refer to it. I don't know if I would even run methanol, just wondering about the effects of having water in the mix. It would be helpful for people who are running a turbo with the nitrous.

XLR8N

iTrader: (3)

I am going to run just alky on my n2o set up. You have to have the correct lines/solenoids that can handle the corosiveness of the alky or meth in your case. I have helped tune one car on alky-n2o/gas motor. They way we tuned it was double the fuel jet and fine tune with the psi. Instead of tuning with timing you tune with afr, every 50hp you subtract .5 to your afr threw the FP. Since alky/meth has such a great cooling effect you can run your motor timing tables. The reason I'm going this route on my car is there is no need for a timing tuner, just flip the switch and spray. With timing your torque picks up substantially (not the best for my application as I already have traction issues) but on a heavy car it really helps get it to the top end A LOT faster!

ocshaman

XLR8n, that was my thought from talking to other people who are doing it on the TB boards. He suggested using direct port to keep the methanol in liquid form. I was considering direct port, but don’t want to spray a lot, so I was thinking about using a single kit, and using a CMGS or AEM flow monitor, to monitor the flow as a failsafe, and the CMGS could also turn on the pump, maybe a few in/hg/rpms/decivolts below nitrous activation to prime the line.

NX, the Devil’s Own methanol controller uses 20hz for methanol pump modulation. Would this be slow enough for progressive nitrous solenoids? They state that their new solenoids can be pulsed at that rate, so I was considering using that as the basis of a progressive kit.

ShiznityZ28

iTrader: (11)

It will not freeze and or cause a problem. I ran water only for thep ump gas drags and testing. with a 400 shot or so. pulled 200* out of the exhaust temps and let us get soem more timing in it. I would recomend running the correct fuel and or meth over the water mixture but if you have to or really want to it will work.

ocshaman

Shiznity, are you running the water/meth and nitrous kits separate, or are you feeding the fuel side with the meth pump? Water meth was just a thought to deal with EGTs, and I don't know how necessary it will be. Meth would make things easier.

ATVracr

iTrader: (5)

Just used water on his Pump Gas Drags set up.
They gave you spec fuel so no other adders were allowed. (water only was OK'd)
It had a nozzle that we tapped into the bottom middle of the intake (vic Jr) and it sprayed up and out.

Never tried meth with it and never really used it once we were allowed to use race gas. I've read here lately that some of the promod cars are doing some testing with it and having some success. Once they get it figured out it will trickle down to us.

n20kid

iTrader: (6)

Need to keep this thread going... Good info.. Been kicking around some idea's about this lately, plus a possible E98 mix in the standalone...

Killer5.3

iTrader: (1)

What happened to Nitrous Express? They came in made one comment and have offered absolutely no technical knowledge on the subject. I would be interested on their thoughts on this from an expert/ vendors standpoint.