Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment?
12-19-2001, 08:58 PM
#1
TECH Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Orange, TX
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment?
What are the pros and cons?
What are the pros and cons?
12-20-2001, 08:04 AM
#2
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Gilbet, AZ.
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? Con of running alcohol is it will eat through your fuel lines, unless you get denatured alcohol.
Pro is that it works better than any octane booster will...it will burn a lot more thoroughly with alcohol.
Pro is that it works better than any octane booster will...it will burn a lot more thoroughly with alcohol.
12-21-2001, 02:06 AM
#4
TECH Addict
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: College Station, Tx
Posts: 2,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? Denatured alchohol will not preserve your fuel lines - it is just ethanol with impurities added to keep you from drinking it (and thus tax on it).
You will have to run a good bit more fuel volume with alchohol than with gas, and you need alchohol approved solenoids, lines, pumps, etc.
Honestly many of the racers out there running alchohol/nos use gas with their nitrous as it is easier to tune. Alchohol is very bad about coloring plugs also.
I would suggest sticking with gas - if you want an extra safety net run high octane. If you want more oomph up the nitrous jet's
Chris
You will have to run a good bit more fuel volume with alchohol than with gas, and you need alchohol approved solenoids, lines, pumps, etc.
Honestly many of the racers out there running alchohol/nos use gas with their nitrous as it is easier to tune. Alchohol is very bad about coloring plugs also.
I would suggest sticking with gas - if you want an extra safety net run high octane. If you want more oomph up the nitrous jet's
Chris
12-21-2001, 07:57 AM
#5
Moderator
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Montgomery Texas
Posts: 5,585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? The good thing to run would be Nitro, If you could get the proper gas mixtures and just use it as and additive then it would feel almost like you running no2. Im sure the gains would be awsome, but its just figuring out the ratio..
Just an Idea... <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">
Just an Idea... <img src="gr_eek2.gif" border="0">
12-22-2001, 07:27 PM
#6
TECH Regular
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: So cal.
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? Nos makes a nitro/alky solenoid.Use a one gal Moon tank ,BG fuel pump & regulator.My friend pionered this system a long,long time ago.A properly set up nitro unit will out power any other nos system.Its also quite stealthy,you only need one nitro/alky solenoid and its the same size as a powershot noid.People look and see what apears to be a small unit,much to there surprize a good smallblock can make over 1000hp, without 6 pro shot solenoids all over youre motor.I have this set up on my 67,its unreal.I could put you in touch with him if you like.DONT TRY TO JET A SETUP LIKE THIS YOUR SELF.The jetting is critical. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" />
[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: mjf454 ]</p>
[ December 22, 2001: Message edited by: mjf454 ]</p>
Trending Topics
01-28-2002, 01:18 AM
#8
Staging Lane
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 83
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? i'm still waiting for the details! <img src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" border="0" alt="[judgement]" /> <img src="graemlins/gr_hail.gif" border="0" alt="[hail]" />
01-29-2002, 07:21 PM
#10
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? [quote]Originally posted by B18B1LS1:
<strong>Never alcohol but I've considered a propane setup on my direct port system.</strong><hr></blockquote>
do you have any info on this, i know the viper guys to this, seems cool <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Ryan.
<strong>Never alcohol but I've considered a propane setup on my direct port system.</strong><hr></blockquote>
do you have any info on this, i know the viper guys to this, seems cool <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Ryan.
01-30-2002, 02:05 AM
#11
TECH Addict
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Fort Worth,TX
Posts: 2,340
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? [quote]Originally posted by B18B1LS1:
<strong>Never alcohol but I've considered a propane setup on my direct port system.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Call me crazy but my car picked up like a ***** with leaded race fuel so I would consider running leaded fuel so long as you dont have cats.Just my $.02
<strong>Never alcohol but I've considered a propane setup on my direct port system.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Call me crazy but my car picked up like a ***** with leaded race fuel so I would consider running leaded fuel so long as you dont have cats.Just my $.02
01-30-2002, 01:01 PM
#12
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? [quote]Originally posted by slow:
<strong>
do you have any info on this, i know the viper guys to this, seems cool <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Ryan.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know very much about it either. I know the propane replaces the addition of the fuel. The benefit comes from the propane being equivalent to around 160 octane race fuel.
And I believe it is much cheaper. I'm sure the solenoids might have to be replaced to handle propane. And the jetting I have no idea on. If you are the first to try it on your setup it will have to be somewhat guess and check. And if your off to much...BOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!
I think I'll stick to my 118 for now <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
<strong>
do you have any info on this, i know the viper guys to this, seems cool <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Ryan.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know very much about it either. I know the propane replaces the addition of the fuel. The benefit comes from the propane being equivalent to around 160 octane race fuel.
And I believe it is much cheaper. I'm sure the solenoids might have to be replaced to handle propane. And the jetting I have no idea on. If you are the first to try it on your setup it will have to be somewhat guess and check. And if your off to much...BOOOOOMMMM!!!!!!
I think I'll stick to my 118 for now <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
01-31-2002, 07:53 AM
#13
TECH Senior Member
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? [quote]Originally posted by The Booker Man:
<strong>
Call me crazy but my car picked up like a ***** with leaded race fuel so I would consider running leaded fuel so long as you dont have cats.Just my $.02</strong><hr></blockquote>
You should have compared it to unleaded racing fuel. Bet you wouldn't have picked up anything over that. The unleaded would probably make more power if it were lower octane.
A WARNING for anyone who wants to run leaded fuel in these cars. Cats or no cats, LEADED FUEL WILL TAKE OUT YOUR O2 SENSORS in quick fashion!
<strong>
Call me crazy but my car picked up like a ***** with leaded race fuel so I would consider running leaded fuel so long as you dont have cats.Just my $.02</strong><hr></blockquote>
You should have compared it to unleaded racing fuel. Bet you wouldn't have picked up anything over that. The unleaded would probably make more power if it were lower octane.
A WARNING for anyone who wants to run leaded fuel in these cars. Cats or no cats, LEADED FUEL WILL TAKE OUT YOUR O2 SENSORS in quick fashion!
01-31-2002, 07:57 PM
#14
11 Second Club
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Hanover MD
Posts: 1,645
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? [quote]Originally posted by slow:
<strong>
do you have any info on this, i know the viper guys to this, seems cool <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Ryan.</strong><hr></blockquote>
i know jason heffner has done a few vipers with the propane on it, he says it makes alot more power because the propane also has a cooling effect on the intake charge like the nitrous. he also told me that it wont tax your fuel system if you want to run a bigger shot on a stock fuel pump. it looks scary as heck, but i would consider trying it.
about the alky setup, i ran it on my gn, but that was on a turbo motor where the alky was on a pressure switch, on a n/a motor like an ls1, i wouldnt know how to keep it from bogging the motor down until it was under a full load.
<strong>
do you have any info on this, i know the viper guys to this, seems cool <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Ryan.</strong><hr></blockquote>
i know jason heffner has done a few vipers with the propane on it, he says it makes alot more power because the propane also has a cooling effect on the intake charge like the nitrous. he also told me that it wont tax your fuel system if you want to run a bigger shot on a stock fuel pump. it looks scary as heck, but i would consider trying it.
about the alky setup, i ran it on my gn, but that was on a turbo motor where the alky was on a pressure switch, on a n/a motor like an ls1, i wouldnt know how to keep it from bogging the motor down until it was under a full load.
02-02-2002, 08:35 PM
#15
Teching In
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? I have been building methanol nitrous systems for 23yrs. These nitrous systems have been banned in every form of organized racing there is, except mud-racing & sand-racing. Reason...I'm the *only* one who could make them work. The organizations tried to keep the playing field level. In my sales presentation to you, I tell you, "If you run one of my methanol nitrous systems, I own you for life" <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Nitrous/methanol makes more TORQUE than you can fantasize; intercools incoming intake charge, burns slower...requires more timing (that's the reason none of the "other" nitrous companies could make methanol/nitrous work....they told everyone to RETARD THE TIMING WITH NITROUS) Timing is more TORQUE!
I HAVE NEVER RETARDED THE TIMING WITH NITROUS, AND NEVER WILL! (this is a subject I'll address at another time)
"Denatured" alcohol is NOT for automotive application.
Methanol applications require approx. 1.9 x the amount of liquid content compared to gasoline.
Methanol does NOT destroy gas lines.
It will destroy rubber needles & seats...ergo, we use "Bu-na" (a synthetic rubber made by the polymerization of the butadiene with certain other substances as styrene) in methanol carbs/solenoids.
The reason "racers" use gas/nitrous with methanol injection/carbs is they contacted a nitrous company that doesn't know what they are doing.
The most common way to read engines on methanol is with a lighted magnifying glass. There is no color on the porcelain portion of the plug; no annealing (purpling or bluing) of the ground strap.
The first time I asked someone to "read" a plug & tell me what they thought, they said, "It's a Champion". <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> I could read the "name" on the plug...I wanted a "reading" of the heat of the plug.
"Up the nitrous jet?" NOT EXACTLY <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Nitro-methane does not blend or mix with gasoline. Results...KA-BOOOM!!!!
*I* invented the nitro/methanol solenoid in 1980. The combination of nitro-methane, methanol & nitrous is one chemical element from "hydrazene" (rocket fuel).
INSTANT DEATH TO ENGINES, PEOPLE (3 people killed by Don Prudhomme-Orange County in 1982/or 1983).
Hydrazene is banned by everybody, except NASA.
The nitro-methanol solenoid is NOT small, like a powershot, but is approx. 6 times larger than the largest gasoline solenoid made.
Don't try this combination, there is no such thing as a nitro/nitrous nitrous system. No jetting combination in the world will make this work.
Propane/nitrous has been around since the '70's. Driving around with a explosive fuel/air bomb in your car is not cool...it works well though. Usually used as a marketing position, not because it's better. There is no 160 octane gasoline. Propane is approx. 104 octane, but it atomizes AWESOME. Result...more burned fuel, more power.
Your "stock" fuel pump has nothing to do with using propane...it's pressure fed.
The "Colonel" is right about unleaded-leaded equal power.
Did you know that the valve seats for unleaded gas are different from leaded gas?
John Stewart, "Mr. Nitrous"
Nitrous/methanol makes more TORQUE than you can fantasize; intercools incoming intake charge, burns slower...requires more timing (that's the reason none of the "other" nitrous companies could make methanol/nitrous work....they told everyone to RETARD THE TIMING WITH NITROUS) Timing is more TORQUE!
I HAVE NEVER RETARDED THE TIMING WITH NITROUS, AND NEVER WILL! (this is a subject I'll address at another time)
"Denatured" alcohol is NOT for automotive application.
Methanol applications require approx. 1.9 x the amount of liquid content compared to gasoline.
Methanol does NOT destroy gas lines.
It will destroy rubber needles & seats...ergo, we use "Bu-na" (a synthetic rubber made by the polymerization of the butadiene with certain other substances as styrene) in methanol carbs/solenoids.
The reason "racers" use gas/nitrous with methanol injection/carbs is they contacted a nitrous company that doesn't know what they are doing.
The most common way to read engines on methanol is with a lighted magnifying glass. There is no color on the porcelain portion of the plug; no annealing (purpling or bluing) of the ground strap.
The first time I asked someone to "read" a plug & tell me what they thought, they said, "It's a Champion". <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0"> I could read the "name" on the plug...I wanted a "reading" of the heat of the plug.
"Up the nitrous jet?" NOT EXACTLY <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Nitro-methane does not blend or mix with gasoline. Results...KA-BOOOM!!!!
*I* invented the nitro/methanol solenoid in 1980. The combination of nitro-methane, methanol & nitrous is one chemical element from "hydrazene" (rocket fuel).
INSTANT DEATH TO ENGINES, PEOPLE (3 people killed by Don Prudhomme-Orange County in 1982/or 1983).
Hydrazene is banned by everybody, except NASA.
The nitro-methanol solenoid is NOT small, like a powershot, but is approx. 6 times larger than the largest gasoline solenoid made.
Don't try this combination, there is no such thing as a nitro/nitrous nitrous system. No jetting combination in the world will make this work.
Propane/nitrous has been around since the '70's. Driving around with a explosive fuel/air bomb in your car is not cool...it works well though. Usually used as a marketing position, not because it's better. There is no 160 octane gasoline. Propane is approx. 104 octane, but it atomizes AWESOME. Result...more burned fuel, more power.
Your "stock" fuel pump has nothing to do with using propane...it's pressure fed.
The "Colonel" is right about unleaded-leaded equal power.
Did you know that the valve seats for unleaded gas are different from leaded gas?
John Stewart, "Mr. Nitrous"
02-03-2002, 04:13 PM
#16
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? I ran methanol with my old dry nitrous system for a short time.
I did not use a fogger.
I ran the n20 with a dry nozzle and used a small CO2 bottle pressureized to well over 100psi for the methanol and used a mini atomization nozzle.
this system needed to be recharged each run.
Well I was trying this with a .075 n20 jet.
It ran real real well the 1st 1/8th and then it would break up on the topend.
Even so with 2.73 gears, stock heads and cam at that time it cracked off 11.22 sputtering to 114mph only.
I gave up the experiment after only about 10 runs and never dialed it in but I am sure it had great promise.
I now use plenty of alky with my supercharged combo <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Steve
I did not use a fogger.
I ran the n20 with a dry nozzle and used a small CO2 bottle pressureized to well over 100psi for the methanol and used a mini atomization nozzle.
this system needed to be recharged each run.
Well I was trying this with a .075 n20 jet.
It ran real real well the 1st 1/8th and then it would break up on the topend.
Even so with 2.73 gears, stock heads and cam at that time it cracked off 11.22 sputtering to 114mph only.
I gave up the experiment after only about 10 runs and never dialed it in but I am sure it had great promise.
I now use plenty of alky with my supercharged combo <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
Steve
02-03-2002, 04:18 PM
#17
TECH Senior Member
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? Steve, you never cease to amaze me with the stuff you've tried! <img src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" border="0">
02-04-2002, 09:57 AM
#18
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? yeah sometimes I am like a mad scientist from those old 50's movies <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
That system had a really nice smooth and hard hit.
I would charge the bottle up to 150psi before each run and refill it it with methanol. Gave me something to do in the pits <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
I just could not get it to fire the whole pass.
I had the plug gaps at .025" and I was only using around 8oz of methanol per pass as I was also increasing the gasloine flow through the injectors. So I just started to assume the stock ls1 ignition could not handle it and that is why I stopped the experiment.
But I continued to have misfire problems with the larger nitrous shots even on all gasoline.Remeber I was always messing with the dry maf type systems so there were lots of little problems at higher jetting.
I later found I had a loose Ignition fuse holder and was probably getting a weak spark causing the entire problem!
Once in top gear it was under enough load that it misfired.
I fixed that and then was able to make full passes no problem.
I was plaqued by that little problem for a long time before I figured it out an it cost me many a 10 second pass!
By the time I had it all figured out I was switching over to the blower so I'll never know how well it would have worked.
Steve
That system had a really nice smooth and hard hit.
I would charge the bottle up to 150psi before each run and refill it it with methanol. Gave me something to do in the pits <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
I just could not get it to fire the whole pass.
I had the plug gaps at .025" and I was only using around 8oz of methanol per pass as I was also increasing the gasloine flow through the injectors. So I just started to assume the stock ls1 ignition could not handle it and that is why I stopped the experiment.
But I continued to have misfire problems with the larger nitrous shots even on all gasoline.Remeber I was always messing with the dry maf type systems so there were lots of little problems at higher jetting.
I later found I had a loose Ignition fuse holder and was probably getting a weak spark causing the entire problem!
Once in top gear it was under enough load that it misfired.
I fixed that and then was able to make full passes no problem.
I was plaqued by that little problem for a long time before I figured it out an it cost me many a 10 second pass!
By the time I had it all figured out I was switching over to the blower so I'll never know how well it would have worked.
Steve
02-16-2002, 07:01 PM
#19
TECH Regular
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: So cal.
Posts: 426
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Anyone using alcohol instead of gasoline for fuel enrichment? Mr nitrous, call Bob Sebring at torrance Service Center 310-370-5580.I have ben running his alky/nitro systems since 1990, it thunders big time.My nitro noid flows a ton of fuel, but its relitive size is small,easly dismissed by onlookers as a small unit.I know your stuff works,i put a 300hp top gun plate on a friends car and am very happy with the results.Dont bash me because i have a working nitro system.And yes i have heard "no nitro in the pits for years". I use it and like it. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[Burnout]" /> As for no such thing call BOB , HE MAKES IT WORK.
