Dry shot tuning question
06-09-2012, 09:36 AM
#22
Listen to hardcore he knows his stuff!!! He is the one that tunes my truck...great guy and drives one of the fastest goats so that means something. He gave me a great point...fuel was never intended to be sprayed through the intake...it can stick inside to the runners causing lean condition or backfire...doesn't seem wise to me unless you go direct port but getting can get costly .
Do you happen to mean get it tuned on the dyno then pull timing accordingly and spray and tune your nitrous by reading your plugs?
06-09-2012, 10:17 AM
#23
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Since when is spraying dry pre-Maf a bad idea?
I spray mine pre-maf and it works just fine with a 12.3 afr, stock tune, and timing tricker.
On another note, working with a friend here in DFW with a product that may help dry tuning a little more. Stay tuned for details.
I spray mine pre-maf and it works just fine with a 12.3 afr, stock tune, and timing tricker.
On another note, working with a friend here in DFW with a product that may help dry tuning a little more. Stay tuned for details.
06-09-2012, 11:12 AM
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the MAF never really See's the spray.... the stock tune is VERY conservative
commanded AFR is at 11.4 the max timing is 19* and with toque management -IAT even less
So you can spray a 75-100 dry shot with little issue..
you would bring the AFR up to around 12.5 or so and with only 19* of timing you were fine..
Now you have all these cars being tuned commanded AFR is now 12.8 or so and running 25-26* of timing...
spray the same 75-100 and BOOM good by #7
Picture of my setup
commanded AFR is at 11.4 the max timing is 19* and with toque management -IAT even less
So you can spray a 75-100 dry shot with little issue..
you would bring the AFR up to around 12.5 or so and with only 19* of timing you were fine..
Now you have all these cars being tuned commanded AFR is now 12.8 or so and running 25-26* of timing...
spray the same 75-100 and BOOM good by #7
Picture of my setup
06-09-2012, 01:58 PM
#29
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s'yd reallyb gonna use those guys? last time I went to the track I went 142-143mph
and I'm sure my goat is heaver the those 2 fbody's
have a look at this and ague your point
and I'm sure my goat is heaver the those 2 fbody's
have a look at this and ague your point
06-09-2012, 03:03 PM
#30
Nah, you say your car is in the 35-3700 lb category? Well Carter01 is right there with you.
MPH is ricer racing the way you just said it. Show your ET and 60ft of that 142-143 pass.
I'd be mad as hell runnin a 400+ cube engine and only running a 9.92 on a 225 shot.
Carter runs faster than that with a stock motor that is smaller, with a cam.
Hell, I went 10.68 stock cube fbody letting off at 1000ft on a 200 shot 3565 raceweight.
I can look at that pic until it turns black and white. If it didn't work, nobody would be making wet kits and if it was as bad as you say, backfires would be happening all the time. More than half this board runs wet kits so I guess we're doing it all wrong.
So as far as defying gravity, at 3500+ rpms you don't think there is enough velocity to suck that vapor of fuel to the intake runners? The way you speak of it is like there is nothing moving in the intake and soembody is just pouring fuel in and it sits there.
MPH is ricer racing the way you just said it. Show your ET and 60ft of that 142-143 pass.
I'd be mad as hell runnin a 400+ cube engine and only running a 9.92 on a 225 shot.
Carter runs faster than that with a stock motor that is smaller, with a cam.
Hell, I went 10.68 stock cube fbody letting off at 1000ft on a 200 shot 3565 raceweight.
I can look at that pic until it turns black and white. If it didn't work, nobody would be making wet kits and if it was as bad as you say, backfires would be happening all the time. More than half this board runs wet kits so I guess we're doing it all wrong.
So as far as defying gravity, at 3500+ rpms you don't think there is enough velocity to suck that vapor of fuel to the intake runners? The way you speak of it is like there is nothing moving in the intake and soembody is just pouring fuel in and it sits there.
06-09-2012, 03:54 PM
#31
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Great, that's your way of doing things. Not saying it's a bad set up. It's just a different way. But the MAF does see the spray otherwise it wouldn't add enough fuel. And there are PLENTY of people running dry that way. Please explain how it doesn't work like that then. When you have time of course.
06-09-2012, 11:35 PM
#32
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Ha ha, even Robert 56 would admit that with a good tune wet kits were safe.
And I would venture to guess that there are actually more like two thirds to three quarters nitrous users on this site who run wet kits.
I have had mine now for 6 years, and don't see myself switching over to dry anytime soon.
Not bashing it at all.
Just different strokes for different folks.
And I would venture to guess that there are actually more like two thirds to three quarters nitrous users on this site who run wet kits.
I have had mine now for 6 years, and don't see myself switching over to dry anytime soon.
Not bashing it at all.
Just different strokes for different folks.
06-10-2012, 12:03 AM
#33
I had my car tuned after my cam swap to basically max out my NA setup. Now I have a dry shot that I have not sprayed in a while and once I get a bigger fuel pump I wouldn't mind spraying it again. I've heard recently that I will need to fatten up my NA tune before I can spray the dry shot. Is that true? I thought that with dry shot tuning that you don't need to mess with the NA tune, and that the tuning on the spray is done with the way the nozzle is being aimed at the MAF.
So basically my question is, do I need to have my tune redone in order to spray again? I have a timing tuner to take care of the timing aspect also.
So basically my question is, do I need to have my tune redone in order to spray again? I have a timing tuner to take care of the timing aspect also.
this usually translates to somewhere in the tune...theres lots of options for where to do it at...
I prefer to do it in the IAT adder tables and use a switch and a relay and a resistor to switch to the Nitrous values...
pull spark from the IAT spark table, and add fuel in the IAT PE table
then you can use a simple relay and a resistor to change your perceived IAT to a very high value, and when you flip a switch it goes from real IAT to resistor, triggering the tune to use the IAT Fuel Adder and the IAT spark subtractor at the same time.
the short and simple answer, is leave the MAF/VE tables set properly for NA, and use the Adders for your added Nitrous system
use a wideband to verify fueling is all good and learn to read your spark plugs to verify that all is well in every hole.
the MAF measures the density of the air, and then based on a table in the pcm it adds fuel to match ... it does not guarantee proper AFR... it just guarantees that it will add that preset amount every time.
you still have to tune the MAF table and VE table to be correct...
and its usually not even close for Nitrous...its close enough to not do any damage on a small shot of nitrous....but that's it..
I wouldn't count on it...
I'm running arguably the Largest Dry kit around 60+150+75=285
spraying though the MAF is a bad Idea..
if you think the PCM will compensate, you my in for a big suprise...
Always use a WideBand when spraying any size shot..
I have a complete right up on the correct way to do a dry kit..
I can post a link if you'd like
I'm running arguably the Largest Dry kit around 60+150+75=285
spraying though the MAF is a bad Idea..
if you think the PCM will compensate, you my in for a big suprise...
Always use a WideBand when spraying any size shot..
I have a complete right up on the correct way to do a dry kit..
I can post a link if you'd like
you are not running the largest dry shot around... Far from it...
hell.. I'm a 150 + 200... planning on a 250+250 later this year if I can get everything else done on the car...
you dont start having issues with liquid pooling or puddling until you get up above a 250 shot wet...then its a problem because nobody's plate kit gives good atomization with large amounts of fuel..its the wrong type of orifice and aimed at the wrong place to atomize fuel and Nitrous together properly
and usually its because people have their nitrous/Fuel mixture WAY too Rich... most people dont understand that when tuned properly, you can run around Lambda .85 with no issues(thats roughly 12.5:1 if you have a wideband that has a readout based on a 14.7:1 Gasoline scale)
most kits are trying to put people in the 11.5~12.0 range...because its easier to add fuel as a safety than it is to teach people how to properly tune at 12.5:1...and most people dont have the willingness to put that much time and effort into tuning or to learning how to tune... a very large portion of people dont even know how to read a spark plug.
promod guys running a 500+ or a 700+ shot keep it at 13:1 all day long with no issues...
06-11-2012, 07:35 AM
#34
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when you spray Dry, you need to compensate for the Fueling somewhere...
this usually translates to somewhere in the tune...theres lots of options for where to do it at...
I prefer to do it in the IAT adder tables and use a switch and a relay and a resistor to switch to the Nitrous values...
pull spark from the IAT spark table, and add fuel in the IAT PE table
then you can use a simple relay and a resistor to change your perceived IAT to a very high value, and when you flip a switch it goes from real IAT to resistor, triggering the tune to use the IAT Fuel Adder and the IAT spark subtractor at the same time.
the short and simple answer, is leave the MAF/VE tables set properly for NA, and use the Adders for your added Nitrous system
use a wideband to verify fueling is all good and learn to read your spark plugs to verify that all is well in every hole.
that is not how the MAF works...
the MAF measures the density of the air, and then based on a table in the pcm it adds fuel to match ... it does not guarantee proper AFR... it just guarantees that it will add that preset amount every time.
you still have to tune the MAF table and VE table to be correct...
and its usually not even close for Nitrous...its close enough to not do any damage on a small shot of nitrous....but that's it..
you are not running the largest dry shot around... Far from it...
hell.. I'm a 150 + 200... planning on a 250+250 later this year if I can get everything else done on the car...
I guess you dont understand atomization...
you dont start having issues with liquid pooling or puddling until you get up above a 250 shot wet...then its a problem because nobody's plate kit gives good atomization with large amounts of fuel..its the wrong type of orifice and aimed at the wrong place to atomize fuel and Nitrous together properly
and usually its because people have their nitrous/Fuel mixture WAY too Rich... most people dont understand that when tuned properly, you can run around Lambda .85 with no issues(thats roughly 12.5:1 if you have a wideband that has a readout based on a 14.7:1 Gasoline scale)
most kits are trying to put people in the 11.5~12.0 range...because its easier to add fuel as a safety than it is to teach people how to properly tune at 12.5:1...and most people dont have the willingness to put that much time and effort into tuning or to learning how to tune... a very large portion of people dont even know how to read a spark plug.
promod guys running a 500+ or a 700+ shot keep it at 13:1 all day long with no issues...
this usually translates to somewhere in the tune...theres lots of options for where to do it at...
I prefer to do it in the IAT adder tables and use a switch and a relay and a resistor to switch to the Nitrous values...
pull spark from the IAT spark table, and add fuel in the IAT PE table
then you can use a simple relay and a resistor to change your perceived IAT to a very high value, and when you flip a switch it goes from real IAT to resistor, triggering the tune to use the IAT Fuel Adder and the IAT spark subtractor at the same time.
the short and simple answer, is leave the MAF/VE tables set properly for NA, and use the Adders for your added Nitrous system
use a wideband to verify fueling is all good and learn to read your spark plugs to verify that all is well in every hole.
that is not how the MAF works...
the MAF measures the density of the air, and then based on a table in the pcm it adds fuel to match ... it does not guarantee proper AFR... it just guarantees that it will add that preset amount every time.
you still have to tune the MAF table and VE table to be correct...
and its usually not even close for Nitrous...its close enough to not do any damage on a small shot of nitrous....but that's it..
you are not running the largest dry shot around... Far from it...
hell.. I'm a 150 + 200... planning on a 250+250 later this year if I can get everything else done on the car...
I guess you dont understand atomization...
you dont start having issues with liquid pooling or puddling until you get up above a 250 shot wet...then its a problem because nobody's plate kit gives good atomization with large amounts of fuel..its the wrong type of orifice and aimed at the wrong place to atomize fuel and Nitrous together properly
and usually its because people have their nitrous/Fuel mixture WAY too Rich... most people dont understand that when tuned properly, you can run around Lambda .85 with no issues(thats roughly 12.5:1 if you have a wideband that has a readout based on a 14.7:1 Gasoline scale)
most kits are trying to put people in the 11.5~12.0 range...because its easier to add fuel as a safety than it is to teach people how to properly tune at 12.5:1...and most people dont have the willingness to put that much time and effort into tuning or to learning how to tune... a very large portion of people dont even know how to read a spark plug.
promod guys running a 500+ or a 700+ shot keep it at 13:1 all day long with no issues...
as far as atomization I understand it complely.. again you just repleated what I said
Plus your running a Super Victor total differnt than a LSx style intake.. but I'm sure you know that
06-11-2012, 07:43 AM
#35
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Nah, you say your car is in the 35-3700 lb category? Well Carter01 is right there with you.
MPH is ricer racing the way you just said it. Show your ET and 60ft of that 142-143 pass.
I'd be mad as hell runnin a 400+ cube engine and only running a 9.92 on a 225 shot.
Carter runs faster than that with a stock motor that is smaller, with a cam.
Hell, I went 10.68 stock cube fbody letting off at 1000ft on a 200 shot 3565 raceweight.
I can look at that pic until it turns black and white. If it didn't work, nobody would be making wet kits and if it was as bad as you say, backfires would be happening all the time. More than half this board runs wet kits so I guess we're doing it all wrong.
So as far as defying gravity, at 3500+ rpms you don't think there is enough velocity to suck that vapor of fuel to the intake runners? The way you speak of it is like there is nothing moving in the intake and soembody is just pouring fuel in and it sits there.
MPH is ricer racing the way you just said it. Show your ET and 60ft of that 142-143 pass.
I'd be mad as hell runnin a 400+ cube engine and only running a 9.92 on a 225 shot.
Carter runs faster than that with a stock motor that is smaller, with a cam.
Hell, I went 10.68 stock cube fbody letting off at 1000ft on a 200 shot 3565 raceweight.
I can look at that pic until it turns black and white. If it didn't work, nobody would be making wet kits and if it was as bad as you say, backfires would be happening all the time. More than half this board runs wet kits so I guess we're doing it all wrong.
So as far as defying gravity, at 3500+ rpms you don't think there is enough velocity to suck that vapor of fuel to the intake runners? The way you speak of it is like there is nothing moving in the intake and soembody is just pouring fuel in and it sits there.
I have NO problem putting all my **** out there.
here is the slips from the 142-143
even have video if you like
as far as being mad as hell, the only time I get mad is if I was running a run high 10's like you
Last edited by hardcore; 06-11-2012 at 07:48 AM.
06-11-2012, 09:22 AM
#36
you realy seem hell bent on making this personal..
I have NO problem putting all my **** out there.
here is the slips from the 142-143
even have video if you like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9osnLdSKkU
I was having a lot of issues with traction that day.. I had to pull a lot of timing out down low.
as far as being mad as hell, the only time I get mad is if I was running a run high 10's like you
I have NO problem putting all my **** out there.
here is the slips from the 142-143
even have video if you like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9osnLdSKkU
I was having a lot of issues with traction that day.. I had to pull a lot of timing out down low.
as far as being mad as hell, the only time I get mad is if I was running a run high 10's like you
Plain and simple you are acting like a wet shot won't work on an LS intake and there are too many people here to prove it otherwise. What you are stating is opinion not a fact, your own thought process not an engineer's point of empirical data.
Nothing wrong with a dry shot, just some of the people with the thinking behind it.
You must be the new Robert56.....wait you might be the old one?
06-11-2012, 09:58 AM
#37
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Comprehension must fail you. If I didn't let off and played with my tune more I would of ran just as fast as you with less of a shot with a smaller motor.
Plain and simple you are acting like a wet shot won't work on an LS intake and there are too many people here to prove it otherwise. What you are stating is opinion not a fact, your own thought process not an engineer's point of empirical data.
Nothing wrong with a dry shot, just some of the people with the thinking behind it.
You must be the new Robert56.....wait you might be the old one?
Plain and simple you are acting like a wet shot won't work on an LS intake and there are too many people here to prove it otherwise. What you are stating is opinion not a fact, your own thought process not an engineer's point of empirical data.
Nothing wrong with a dry shot, just some of the people with the thinking behind it.
You must be the new Robert56.....wait you might be the old one?
you want to talk ricer excuses?
"If I didn't let off and played with my tune more I would of ran just as fast as you with less of a shot with a smaller motor."
my old motor "346ci" went 10.153@132.23 1.36-60'-200 Shot pump gas
I Had a chance to sell it so I did and built my 403..
The New motor has only been in the car since Oct and have been dealing with traction issues since ..
But the car has gone 9.92 and 9.96 and a whole hell of a lot of 10.0x
I just went to a new wheel combo so i can get away from the 26x10 slick and go to something bigger.. 27x11.5s
The OP asked about Dry Shot tuning..
I was just giving my Strong opinion against spraying thought the MAF and hopping the Magic PCM will make everything Safe..
I'm not a big Fan of plate wet kits... Direct port is another story
I wonder why there no Injectors by the TB? All modern FI cars have them in the intake ports or now a days in the Head it's self (direct Injection) maybe you heard of it
06-11-2012, 01:42 PM
#39
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It sure would be cool to have a 7.8 street car
I'm running a dry shot too? so are you defending me or your buddy tell you to chime in?
really inpressed your spraying A 400 shot though the MAF and the pcm just picks it up the extra fuel... I mean that was the agrument....
BTW I like your 10 year on ls1tech thing.. i should get mine in a few weeks!!
06-11-2012, 01:46 PM
#40
We have ran dry for a while. I didn't read all you posts. there were others who said switch to wet and it won't work. It will and can. Any type of kit over 200 you should know what your doing or at least your tunner should .Theres alot of bad info out there nd people take it as gospel.
your car is fast just i would try not to come of as the end all be all. we went 8's with our street ls1's on stock computers 4-5 years ago.
your car is fast just i would try not to come of as the end all be all. we went 8's with our street ls1's on stock computers 4-5 years ago.