Strange Lean condition with plate kit
03-08-2013, 10:20 AM
#81
Boy, you contradict your own self. To show me up, you say your dad started the shop and then in your last paragraph you say you haev been in business 10 years. Which one is it?
I have never heard of you until you came here.
I never told you how to run your business. I just gave you a suggestion.
Like I said before, you're happy, I'm happy. On to the next project.
I have never heard of you until you came here.
I never told you how to run your business. I just gave you a suggestion.
Like I said before, you're happy, I'm happy. On to the next project.
Any thoughts on the dyno graph with a standalone?
03-08-2013, 10:24 AM
#82
Jonathan, are you using NANO? I had a NANO kit a while back that would creep on pressure to like 1300+psi. We were not watching the gauge and it caused minor problems for a while. Just more ideas to consider.
03-08-2013, 10:34 AM
#83
He and I both started the shop 10 years ago. I've worked here and he has worked here for 10 years....pretty simple. He was working on cars and drag racing before you or I was ever born. Not trying to show you up, just to prove that how long you have worked on cars has nothing to do with this cars issue.
Any thoughts on the dyno graph with a standalone?
Any thoughts on the dyno graph with a standalone?
03-08-2013, 10:44 AM
#84
I really do want this car to be right and work perfectly, but I don't want to continue with more wear and tear on the engine as well as the ever growing nitrous and fuel costs. The customer has been super cool about everything and that makes it a lot easier to keep digging into the issue, but I've had this thing on and off the dyno about 5 times trying to keep our other commitments going.
Maybe another tuner could figure it out...but I don't think its any type of tuning issue. I'm a relatively new tuner, I've only been tuning for 8 months or so...but counting my tune files I'm up to about 75 cars so this isn't my first try either. Wet nitrous is just that....changing a jet should change the fuel but it doesn't seem to have any effect on the initial hit.
03-08-2013, 10:58 AM
#85
There is nothing left to look at... Changed the plate to a different plate then to a fogger nozzle. Checked the solenoid, checked the screen going into the noid, replaced the bottle, replaced the feed line, line from noid to plate, etc. NX sent us a plate kit to try, but other than that we haven't spent any money on this car....everything else we have tried was parts that were already here.
I wonder if the intake manifold itself could somehow be causing this. I know thats a crazy notion, but I know it has been apart because the person who originally installed it drilled the map hole out and went through the runner just beyond the outside of the intake. That runner was replaced according to the owner... I'll try the alt first.
I wonder if the intake manifold itself could somehow be causing this. I know thats a crazy notion, but I know it has been apart because the person who originally installed it drilled the map hole out and went through the runner just beyond the outside of the intake. That runner was replaced according to the owner... I'll try the alt first.
03-08-2013, 11:02 AM
#86
Well you never said that about the intake. It might be leaning out at low air speeds and as air speed (velocity) picks up it picks up the fuel and brings the A/F more back in line at the top of the run.
Do you have an LS1 or LS6 laying around to try?
Do you have an LS1 or LS6 laying around to try?
03-08-2013, 12:26 PM
#87
I have been in shops working on cars way before Tick Performance was thought about and I'm only 35 years old. I now own my own and you don't know me so don't think I sit behind computers all day. If you want to follow his lead then be my guest, but I can tell you now that car is going to bite you in the *** later if you don't figure it out. Been there and done that.
As far as the 20 cars and being backed up there is a thing called time management and an old saying "under promise and over deliver". Learn both of them and it will help your business dramatically as it did for mine.
As for being done in this thread, 8 guys told you all to check to make sure everyting is good with the pump, filter and lines. Both of ya'll put yourselves in denial and tried a million other thing and spent money like parts changers instead of diagnosing the problem like a technician. As ya'll stayed in denial everybody else stopped posting including Nitrous Outlet.
If you're happy, I'm happy. On to the next project.
As far as the 20 cars and being backed up there is a thing called time management and an old saying "under promise and over deliver". Learn both of them and it will help your business dramatically as it did for mine.
As for being done in this thread, 8 guys told you all to check to make sure everyting is good with the pump, filter and lines. Both of ya'll put yourselves in denial and tried a million other thing and spent money like parts changers instead of diagnosing the problem like a technician. As ya'll stayed in denial everybody else stopped posting including Nitrous Outlet.
If you're happy, I'm happy. On to the next project.
Boy, you contradict your own self. To show me up, you say your dad started the shop and then in your last paragraph you say you haev been in business 10 years. Which one is it?
I have never heard of you until you came here.
I never told you how to run your business. I just gave you a suggestion.
Like I said before, you're happy, I'm happy. On to the next project.
I have never heard of you until you came here.
I never told you how to run your business. I just gave you a suggestion.
Like I said before, you're happy, I'm happy. On to the next project.
Sure are quiet now, I thought it was the fuel pump? Could it be...the stand a lone pump is bad also?
Now I'm done.
03-08-2013, 03:14 PM
#89
Thanks for the business tips, but unfortunately I've never heard of you or your business before. Like that has anything to do with this issue. Denial? WE KNEW there was nothing wrong with the pump.
Give it up man. We know what you've been in this thread trying to do. You're trying to make it seem like we're half assing this car. Then you try and turn this into a, learn how to manage your business better lesson? Give it a rest. We tried your stand a lone idea and guess what? It didn't change a damn thing! You sure aren't beating that dead horse anymore after running your mouth about how we weren't doing this right or that we weren't listening or what have you.
Sure are quiet now, I thought it was the fuel pump? Could it be...the stand a lone pump is bad also?
Seriously? Try a different intake? Nothing you have said here has been a fix even your fuel pump ideas. How is flow not related to pressure? You totally ignored that post too just like you ignored Jonathan's posts about trying the stand alone. Get off your high horse and go run your shop the way you see fit and we will worry about this one. All you've done now is try and divert attention from your ideas that weren't the issue like we told you all along and now you try and bring attention to what Jonathan said about when he started this shop as if he were lying about owning it. What are you going to pull out of your bag of tricks next? I said I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but your posts were just too much to ignore.
Now I'm done.
Give it up man. We know what you've been in this thread trying to do. You're trying to make it seem like we're half assing this car. Then you try and turn this into a, learn how to manage your business better lesson? Give it a rest. We tried your stand a lone idea and guess what? It didn't change a damn thing! You sure aren't beating that dead horse anymore after running your mouth about how we weren't doing this right or that we weren't listening or what have you.
Sure are quiet now, I thought it was the fuel pump? Could it be...the stand a lone pump is bad also?
Seriously? Try a different intake? Nothing you have said here has been a fix even your fuel pump ideas. How is flow not related to pressure? You totally ignored that post too just like you ignored Jonathan's posts about trying the stand alone. Get off your high horse and go run your shop the way you see fit and we will worry about this one. All you've done now is try and divert attention from your ideas that weren't the issue like we told you all along and now you try and bring attention to what Jonathan said about when he started this shop as if he were lying about owning it. What are you going to pull out of your bag of tricks next? I said I wasn't going to post in this thread anymore, but your posts were just too much to ignore.
Now I'm done.
I'm glad you did try the standalone because its shows that its something else and you can head in another direction and know that the fuel system IS OK. i never said you weren't linstening just to me. Alot of people were throwing out their suggestions and ya'll kept saying "nah that ain't it" instead of trying it.
My post of "nope no thoughts" really meant "I don't give a **** I'm done" but then Jonathan tells me about the intake having an issue so, it got me interested again and hence my response of trying a different intake. Now you come at me with this **** so guess what my response is now?
I never said Jonathan was blatantly lying, he contradicted himself in the same post. If anything both of you were on the high horse talking about "been doing this for years and owning an shop" and in the process of talking down to me and others on here like we don't know what were doing at all.
Martin, if you don't know of pressure vs. volume then you have to read up on it. As much as you have helped me on nitrous you ought to know If you have 2 water pipes and both of them are at the same pressure and you put a .041 jut on the end of one and a .103 jet on the other you can hold 70 lbs of pressure on both pipes and you know the .103 flow more out of it.
As I said before, If Jonathan is happy, then I'm happy.
People come here for help if you don't want help, don't post here its that simple. I threw out my suggestion and it didn't work, oh well, on to the next thing.
03-08-2013, 03:40 PM
#90
I'm probably one of the least knowledgeable people in this thread.. And it is why I have tread lightly in here. But after reading all of the information, looking at what has been changed/tested, etc etc... I don't even own my own shop or claim to know more than so and so... And I knew for a fact that changing that pump or going to the standalone was not going to change anything. Whether it be because of bad volume/pressure, a kink in the hose, etc etc..
It had nothing to do with owning a shop or this and that.. It had to do with looking at all the information and it being clear as day it was not the pump, or the fuel line.
I might not be a genius but I am decent at working on cars and diagnosing problems. Out of 4 other guys I was the only one that figured out the fuel issue on my buddies 370 D1 car, when they all were telling me no way it could be that... It was. That means nothing in here though.. Just like owning a shop doesn't.
You came in here on a high horse and putting Tick down... You were wrong. You could tell it hit your ego a bit too when you were wrong.
That is my .02. I have no more help in this thread and no more ideas to check that or this.. If I had to take a guess (not even educated) I would look into the electrical/tuning side of things.. From some of the posts, it seems like the alt. would be my first test subject. After that, maybe have someone else look the tune over.
I'm bowing out.
It had nothing to do with owning a shop or this and that.. It had to do with looking at all the information and it being clear as day it was not the pump, or the fuel line.
I might not be a genius but I am decent at working on cars and diagnosing problems. Out of 4 other guys I was the only one that figured out the fuel issue on my buddies 370 D1 car, when they all were telling me no way it could be that... It was. That means nothing in here though.. Just like owning a shop doesn't.
You came in here on a high horse and putting Tick down... You were wrong. You could tell it hit your ego a bit too when you were wrong.
That is my .02. I have no more help in this thread and no more ideas to check that or this.. If I had to take a guess (not even educated) I would look into the electrical/tuning side of things.. From some of the posts, it seems like the alt. would be my first test subject. After that, maybe have someone else look the tune over.
I'm bowing out.
03-08-2013, 04:33 PM
#91
It didn't hit my ego I just didn't care anymore. I have no dog in this fight. Im not losing money nor sleep over this even though I tried to help with a suggestion.
I came back from being dis-interested in when Jonthan mentioned the intake. Now at this point......I really don't care.
Carry on I'm done.
I came back from being dis-interested in when Jonthan mentioned the intake. Now at this point......I really don't care.
Carry on I'm done.
03-10-2013, 07:55 AM
#93
Hey at least you ruled out the pump now. What you, Tick, don't realize you just did was provide more documented information to your customer so if he does end up having a problem down the road, you have the data to back up that you tried replacing xyz and there was no change.
Last edited by ddnspider; 03-10-2013 at 07:25 PM.
03-10-2013, 02:18 PM
#94
It must be the muffler bearings!
Hey at least you ruled out the pump now. What you, Tick, don't realize you just did was provide more documented information to you customer so he does end up having a problem down the road, you have the data to back up that you tried replacing xyz and there was no change.
Hey at least you ruled out the pump now. What you, Tick, don't realize you just did was provide more documented information to you customer so he does end up having a problem down the road, you have the data to back up that you tried replacing xyz and there was no change.
03-10-2013, 04:43 PM
#95
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Thanks for any info.
03-11-2013, 07:37 AM
#96
He used the IAT PE multiplier table. It adds a coefficient to the current PE multiplier you're commanding based on the IAT temperature the sensor reports to the ECU. We were already using the IAT timing table to pull timing based on a certain temperature value, so he just mimicked that value in the IAT PE multiplier table so at the same temperature it pulls timing it also adds fuel needed for the kit.
No MAF, SD tuned, 93 octane fuel, and we're at 19* timing while the kit is on. I believe the N/A tune has 26-27* degrees in it. Very very safe tune-up. Now that I say that, we had 19* in it for the 150 shot and I'm not sure if Jonathan added any timing back in for the 100 shot. Probably not just so he could keep it as safe as possible.
As you guys can see, the AFR ended up looking nice and smooth while the kit is on. It also didn't sacrifice barely any (1-2rwhp/1-2rwtq) power N/A either.
No MAF, SD tuned, 93 octane fuel, and we're at 19* timing while the kit is on. I believe the N/A tune has 26-27* degrees in it. Very very safe tune-up. Now that I say that, we had 19* in it for the 150 shot and I'm not sure if Jonathan added any timing back in for the 100 shot. Probably not just so he could keep it as safe as possible.
As you guys can see, the AFR ended up looking nice and smooth while the kit is on. It also didn't sacrifice barely any (1-2rwhp/1-2rwtq) power N/A either.
03-11-2013, 01:21 PM
#97
Maybe another tuner could figure it out...but I don't think its any type of tuning issue. I'm a relatively new tuner, I've only been tuning for 8 months or so...but counting my tune files I'm up to about 75 cars so this isn't my first try either. Wet nitrous is just that....changing a jet should change the fuel but it doesn't seem to have any effect on the initial hit.
The problem was in the tune the whole time. Since you are speed density there isn't a MAF to register the additional air flow when the nitrous turned on. There are cells in the VE table being hit that weren't set up to add fuel via the injectors because those cells had been tuned to optimize for N/A. There are many ways to accomplish this and it looks like you discovered one of the ways judging by the final graph.
I wouldn't complain about the loss of dollars in fuel and nitrous. You didn't need to make full pulls. You should have made 3000 to 4500 rpm pulls until you had control of the fueling during nitrous activation.
It looks like everyone has learned something and hopefully this can be applied to future projects.
03-21-2013, 03:33 AM
#98
I tried to help out days ago, but you wouldn't offer any info on the specifics of the tune.
The problem was in the tune the whole time. Since you are speed density there isn't a MAF to register the additional air flow when the nitrous turned on. There are cells in the VE table being hit that weren't set up to add fuel via the injectors because those cells had been tuned to optimize for N/A. There are many ways to accomplish this and it looks like you discovered one of the ways judging by the final graph.
I wouldn't complain about the loss of dollars in fuel and nitrous. You didn't need to make full pulls. You should have made 3000 to 4500 rpm pulls until you had control of the fueling during nitrous activation.
It looks like everyone has learned something and hopefully this can be applied to future projects.
The problem was in the tune the whole time. Since you are speed density there isn't a MAF to register the additional air flow when the nitrous turned on. There are cells in the VE table being hit that weren't set up to add fuel via the injectors because those cells had been tuned to optimize for N/A. There are many ways to accomplish this and it looks like you discovered one of the ways judging by the final graph.
I wouldn't complain about the loss of dollars in fuel and nitrous. You didn't need to make full pulls. You should have made 3000 to 4500 rpm pulls until you had control of the fueling during nitrous activation.
It looks like everyone has learned something and hopefully this can be applied to future projects.
If for some reason the maf or lack there of didn't read airflow increase from the nitrous it still has no effect on x amount of fuel and x amount of nitrous being sprayed into the intake. I could see your reasoning if they were spraying through the maf and having the injectors compensate‚ but its not like its just adding in more air. Its a precise ratio of fuel and nitrous why would the afr spike so much and for so long if a ve table wasn't being used because of the SD tune. Its spraying the amount of fuel in needs na for a good afr ratio, if the jetting is right and the timing is right, afr shouldn't change much on the bottle except a very slight lean spike on the hit.
03-21-2013, 07:09 AM
#99
It shouldnt matter if its SD tuned or not. It showed the same lean spike dry using the injectors to add more fuel, and wet using the pump and noid
If for some reason the maf or lack there of didn't read airflow increase from the nitrous it still has no effect on x amount of fuel and x amount of nitrous being sprayed into the intake. I could see your reasoning if they were spraying through the maf and having the injectors compensate‚ but its not like its just adding in more air. Its a precise ratio of fuel and nitrous why would the afr spike so much and for so long if a ve table wasn't being used because of the SD tune. Its spraying the amount of fuel in needs na for a good afr ratio, if the jetting is right and the timing is right, afr shouldn't change much on the bottle except a very slight lean spike on the hit.
If for some reason the maf or lack there of didn't read airflow increase from the nitrous it still has no effect on x amount of fuel and x amount of nitrous being sprayed into the intake. I could see your reasoning if they were spraying through the maf and having the injectors compensate‚ but its not like its just adding in more air. Its a precise ratio of fuel and nitrous why would the afr spike so much and for so long if a ve table wasn't being used because of the SD tune. Its spraying the amount of fuel in needs na for a good afr ratio, if the jetting is right and the timing is right, afr shouldn't change much on the bottle except a very slight lean spike on the hit.
03-21-2013, 09:57 PM
#100
If had to guess i would say its an electeical problem. C5s are notorius for weird electrical issues. A bad ground or something could be causing a problem when the amperage increases from the system being activated. Ive seen stranger stuff with c5 electronics