Strange Lean condition with plate kit
thats the easiest question of all, when the demand jumps up instantly vs at a steady rate, volume drops and the pump slowly catches back up. if you lokm it actually does it just not nearly as severe on the n/a pulls as well..
Everything needed to troubleshoot and find the real problem has been posted in this thread already. For whatever reason y'all want to be in denial that it could be the pump, you can't rule out something if you dont test it. When walbro had that bad batch of pumps years back I put 3 brand new pumps in the same car. Thats hard to swallow but anything is possible with electrical parts.It could be volume and not be lean the whole run in a couple of different ways. The pump may just not be keeping up with the initial demand and once past that its able to keep up.
I wish yall would stick with it and find out the real issue, it may suck and take some time but it can only be so many things. You just have to troubleshoot a nitrous kit, I can think of a lot of other jobs that could be a lot worse.
Since you have tuned it dry, the injectors are not going to tax the fuel system as hard as the instant hit of a fuel solenoid on a wet kit. Kinda like a dimmer switch and a regular light switch. That is why its not as bad on the dry hit compared to the wet hit. That is the reason I stated to put a standalone on the car to rule out the fuel pump issue.
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one thing that bothers me is that at the top of the power curve, if he has the correct jetting in (he says steady 58psi), and it goes rich, then its not a fuel supply problem. I still wonder if that nitrous noid is dozing off at the top.
My thoughts as well, but it's pulling nearly 20amps and we changed the solenoids already.
Thank you for your opinion. It's very easy for you to sit here behind a computer and say do this do that, but when you're paying the bills you see it differently. If Jonathan believes it is not a pump, and he has been diagnosing things like this on these cars for over 10 years...I tend to follow his lead. Sorry if you see it differently or don't agree.
How hard would it be to change the pump out... Or do your own quick standalone?
I'm not saying this is it.. Just curious. I know with an fbody/trap door you can change a pump out in under 10 minutes.
Would rule it out and if he is right an, I told you so kind of thing.
I'm interested to see where this goes.
FWIW... We have a brand new Walbro 255 we had problems with... Buddies car Martin, the black D1 car. The other pump was used, and also had an issue.
I'm not saying this is it.. Just curious. I know with an fbody/trap door you can change a pump out in under 10 minutes.
Would rule it out and if he is right an, I told you so kind of thing.
I'm interested to see where this goes.
FWIW... We have a brand new Walbro 255 we had problems with... Buddies car Martin, the black D1 car. The other pump was used, and also had an issue.
When you have 20 other cars that have to be worked on, that all have delivery dates that are already pushed back because of another car you don't have the leisure of spending every hour of the day on one car like you can if it's your own personal car.
This corvette has been in our shop for a month now just for a simple nitrous install.
I'm done posting in this thread guys. Have fun.
This corvette has been in our shop for a month now just for a simple nitrous install.
I'm done posting in this thread guys. Have fun.
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Verdad Gallardo When you have 20 other cars that have to be worked on, that all have delivery dates that are already pushed back because of another car you don't have the leisure of spending every hour of the day on one car like you can if it's your own personal car.
This corvette has been in our shop for a month now just for a simple nitrous install.
I'm done posting in this thread guys. Have fun.
This corvette has been in our shop for a month now just for a simple nitrous install.
I'm done posting in this thread guys. Have fun.
I didn't know if it was a 10 minute job or was a huge hassle.
I would have already been done with the damn thing! LOL
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Is the relationship of pressure and volume not directly proportional with all variables the same? I know that at a certain pressure, a fuel pumps volume capability will start to decrease, but we aren't changing the pressure. I'm no engineer, but I've seen plenty of weak fuel pumps which weren't flowing the volume of fuel necessary. You change the jet or the tune to provide the engine with more fuel and as a result the pressure drops, injector dc goes up, etc.
I've sprayed this car with a 100 shot nitrous jet and a 150 shot fuel jet with absolutely no drop in pressure and no change to the afr for the initial 1.5 seconds after the hit. Explain how I could change the size of the jet while still maintaining the same pressure and the afr doesn't change. The change in jet size somehow decrease the volume proportionately without changing the pressure?
I'll try the standalone and if it fixes the car believe me I'll be happier than the customer. It is just my understanding and my experience that pressure and volume are directly proportional give all the same variables.
Again, I'm no engineer....but at my house the water pressure is lower when both showers are going at the same time...even my wife knows that.
I've sprayed this car with a 100 shot nitrous jet and a 150 shot fuel jet with absolutely no drop in pressure and no change to the afr for the initial 1.5 seconds after the hit. Explain how I could change the size of the jet while still maintaining the same pressure and the afr doesn't change. The change in jet size somehow decrease the volume proportionately without changing the pressure?
I'll try the standalone and if it fixes the car believe me I'll be happier than the customer. It is just my understanding and my experience that pressure and volume are directly proportional give all the same variables.
Again, I'm no engineer....but at my house the water pressure is lower when both showers are going at the same time...even my wife knows that.
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To add, I suppose that maybe there could be a kinked or dented line that would somehow maintain the pressure while not delivering the volume required....but if not this thing is using the same pump, lines, etc that a thousand other cars are using and making more hp.
To add, I suppose that maybe there could be a kinked or dented line that would somehow maintain the pressure while not delivering the volume required....but if not this thing is using the same pump, lines, etc that a thousand other cars are using and making more hp.
We thought we might have had that issue but our problem was complete different. Ours ended up being a bad CV in one pump and a pressure issue in the other.
When you have 20 other cars that have to be worked on, that all have delivery dates that are already pushed back because of another car you don't have the leisure of spending every hour of the day on one car like you can if it's your own personal car.
This corvette has been in our shop for a month now just for a simple nitrous install.
I'm done posting in this thread guys. Have fun.
This corvette has been in our shop for a month now just for a simple nitrous install.
I'm done posting in this thread guys. Have fun.
Thread Starter
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From: Mooresville, NC
Thats part of owning a performance shop, its not all gravy jobs and huge profits. I have had to pull a motor twice over some messed up brand new heads, not ever job goes as planned and every now and then you lose money on a job. I had to pull out a LS3 out of my CTSV with a 175 miles on it because of messed up machine work. It really sucked but it is what it is sometimes. I would either take the nitrous off or keep sucking it up and find out what the problem is.
We didn't profit from any of these items installed. They were brought to us....fuel pump included. I have spent days on something that should have taken an hour. We aren't charging for all of that time...just the price quoted for the install and tune. You don't have to tell us about owning a shop, I have owned this one for 10 years. The tune is safe as of right now. If it had a more steady afr I would like it better, but it isn't going to pick up a ton of power. We're talking about a cam/head/nitrous stock bottom end engine that I cringe each and every pull wondering if this will be the one that a rod lets go.
We pulled an engine apart 2 times with beat out bearings. The engine had a cracked crank that us and the machinist didn't catch. The third time it failed the crank broke. I know that everything doesn't always go as planned...
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Is the relationship of pressure and volume not directly proportional with all variables the same? I know that at a certain pressure, a fuel pumps volume capability will start to decrease, but we aren't changing the pressure. I'm no engineer, but I've seen plenty of weak fuel pumps which weren't flowing the volume of fuel necessary. You change the jet or the tune to provide the engine with more fuel and as a result the pressure drops, injector dc goes up, etc.
I've sprayed this car with a 100 shot nitrous jet and a 150 shot fuel jet with absolutely no drop in pressure and no change to the afr for the initial 1.5 seconds after the hit. Explain how I could change the size of the jet while still maintaining the same pressure and the afr doesn't change. The change in jet size somehow decrease the volume proportionately without changing the pressure?
I'll try the standalone and if it fixes the car believe me I'll be happier than the customer. It is just my understanding and my experience that pressure and volume are directly proportional give all the same variables.
Again, I'm no engineer....but at my house the water pressure is lower when both showers are going at the same time...even my wife knows that.
I've sprayed this car with a 100 shot nitrous jet and a 150 shot fuel jet with absolutely no drop in pressure and no change to the afr for the initial 1.5 seconds after the hit. Explain how I could change the size of the jet while still maintaining the same pressure and the afr doesn't change. The change in jet size somehow decrease the volume proportionately without changing the pressure?
I'll try the standalone and if it fixes the car believe me I'll be happier than the customer. It is just my understanding and my experience that pressure and volume are directly proportional give all the same variables.
Again, I'm no engineer....but at my house the water pressure is lower when both showers are going at the same time...even my wife knows that.
If the nitrous afr is safe with it tuned dry, then why would we want to continue? Like I posted, I'll try a standalone if the customer wants to pay for our time. Otherwise he can pick it up just like it is and it will be fine. If the standalone did fix the issue, do you think the customer would want to pay for that as well as the labor to actually install one? Would he pay the labor to tear the fuel pump back out just to look for a problem thats really not even a problem now?
We didn't profit from any of these items installed. They were brought to us....fuel pump included. I have spent days on something that should have taken an hour. We aren't charging for all of that time...just the price quoted for the install and tune. You don't have to tell us about owning a shop, I have owned this one for 10 years. The tune is safe as of right now. If it had a more steady afr I would like it better, but it isn't going to pick up a ton of power. We're talking about a cam/head/nitrous stock bottom end engine that I cringe each and every pull wondering if this will be the one that a rod lets go.
We pulled an engine apart 2 times with beat out bearings. The engine had a cracked crank that us and the machinist didn't catch. The third time it failed the crank broke. I know that everything doesn't always go as planned...
We didn't profit from any of these items installed. They were brought to us....fuel pump included. I have spent days on something that should have taken an hour. We aren't charging for all of that time...just the price quoted for the install and tune. You don't have to tell us about owning a shop, I have owned this one for 10 years. The tune is safe as of right now. If it had a more steady afr I would like it better, but it isn't going to pick up a ton of power. We're talking about a cam/head/nitrous stock bottom end engine that I cringe each and every pull wondering if this will be the one that a rod lets go.
We pulled an engine apart 2 times with beat out bearings. The engine had a cracked crank that us and the machinist didn't catch. The third time it failed the crank broke. I know that everything doesn't always go as planned...
It's things like this that don't make me miss owning a shop at all. A couple cars like this and you had a real bad hit on the pocket book. Hopefully the car owner is cool and isn't making it more of a nightmare.
Thank you for your opinion. It's very easy for you to sit here behind a computer and say do this do that, but when you're paying the bills you see it differently. If Jonathan believes it is not a pump, and he has been diagnosing things like this on these cars for over 10 years...I tend to follow his lead. Sorry if you see it differently or don't agree.
When you have 20 other cars that have to be worked on, that all have delivery dates that are already pushed back because of another car you don't have the leisure of spending every hour of the day on one car like you can if it's your own personal car.
This corvette has been in our shop for a month now just for a simple nitrous install.
I'm done posting in this thread guys. Have fun.
This corvette has been in our shop for a month now just for a simple nitrous install.
I'm done posting in this thread guys. Have fun.
As far as the 20 cars and being backed up there is a thing called time management and an old saying "under promise and over deliver". Learn both of them and it will help your business dramatically as it did for mine.
As for being done in this thread, 8 guys told you all to check to make sure everyting is good with the pump, filter and lines. Both of ya'll put yourselves in denial and tried a million other thing and spent money like parts changers instead of diagnosing the problem like a technician. As ya'll stayed in denial everybody else stopped posting including Nitrous Outlet.
If you're happy, I'm happy. On to the next project.
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I have been in shops working on cars way before Tick Performance was thought about and I'm only 35 years old. I now own my own and you don't know me so don't think I sit behind computers all day. If you want to follow his lead then be my guest, but I can tell you now that car is going to bite you in the *** later if you don't figure it out. Been there and done that.
As far as the 20 cars and being backed up there is a thing called time management and an old saying "under promise and over deliver". Learn both of them and it will help your business dramatically as it did for mine.
As for being done in this thread, 8 guys told you all to check to make sure everyting is good with the pump, filter and lines. Both of ya'll put yourselves in denial and tried a million other thing and spent money like parts changers instead of diagnosing the problem like a technician. As ya'll stayed in denial everybody else stopped posting including Nitrous Outlet.
If you're happy, I'm happy. On to the next project.
As far as the 20 cars and being backed up there is a thing called time management and an old saying "under promise and over deliver". Learn both of them and it will help your business dramatically as it did for mine.
As for being done in this thread, 8 guys told you all to check to make sure everyting is good with the pump, filter and lines. Both of ya'll put yourselves in denial and tried a million other thing and spent money like parts changers instead of diagnosing the problem like a technician. As ya'll stayed in denial everybody else stopped posting including Nitrous Outlet.
If you're happy, I'm happy. On to the next project.
Plain and simple, I've changed everything. I've diagnosed multiple cars and I use my experience to decide the best way to proceed. I felt the pump was the least likely issue based on the fuel pressure. Pressure and volume go hand and hand when all other variables are the same, period.
I installed a standalone this morning just to elimate all doubt. Guess what? Same thing. Are you going to tell me know that the stand alone pump is bad also? We're a paying sponsor on here and have been in business for 10 years. I don't need some nobody like you telling me how to run my business. Our reputation speaks for itself.
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From: Mooresville, NC
Standalone fuel vs most current NA pull. You can see that I have actually richened up the pe multiplier in the lean area to counteract the lean spike of the nitrous. Even with that additional help, the standalone fuel system (a brand new NX setup we were installing into another car here right now) didn't help the issue. The afr has a lean bump, then falls toward the end. This has happened no matter how we set it up.
I'm tempted to change the alternator just to rule that out also as that is the only thing that anyone has suggested that I haven't tried.
Edit: had some trouble getting the pic to load.
I'm tempted to change the alternator just to rule that out also as that is the only thing that anyone has suggested that I haven't tried.
Edit: had some trouble getting the pic to load.
Last edited by Jonathan@Tick; Mar 8, 2013 at 09:56 AM.
I think we're pretty well set and established as a business. Thanks for your input though. I work about 80 hours a week and we still have to turn work away.... My father started the company, and was working on performance cars before you were born, but how does that have any relevance to this thread?
Plain and simple, I've changed everything. I've diagnosed multiple cars and I use my experience to decide the best way to proceed. I felt the pump was the least likely issue based on the fuel pressure. Pressure and volume go hand and hand when all other variables are the same, period.
I installed a standalone this morning just to elimate all doubt. Guess what? Same thing. Are you going to tell me know that the stand alone pump is bad also? We're a paying sponsor on here and have been in business for 10 years. I don't need some nobody like you telling me how to run my business. Our reputation speaks for itself.
Plain and simple, I've changed everything. I've diagnosed multiple cars and I use my experience to decide the best way to proceed. I felt the pump was the least likely issue based on the fuel pressure. Pressure and volume go hand and hand when all other variables are the same, period.
I installed a standalone this morning just to elimate all doubt. Guess what? Same thing. Are you going to tell me know that the stand alone pump is bad also? We're a paying sponsor on here and have been in business for 10 years. I don't need some nobody like you telling me how to run my business. Our reputation speaks for itself.
I have never heard of you until you came here.
I never told you how to run your business. I just gave you a suggestion.
Like I said before, you're happy, I'm happy. On to the next project.
