FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (-1)

oxygen atoms freed by decomposing N2O will attack the engine metal, severely damaging it.
http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/se...hing-gas.shtml

Corrosive to aluminum, nickel, and nickel-copper and nickel-chromium-iron alloys at high concentrations in water.(37)
http://www.intox.org/databank/docume...sox/cie407.htm

HAZARDOUS DECOMPOSITION PRODUCTS (from reaction with other materials). Nitrogen oxide can react with water vapors to form corrosive nitric acid (TLV=2 ppm).
http://www.eagerplastics.com/1638.htm

DERTY

N2O Decomposes regardless if you use a catalyst or not. That's what makes it work. To be quite honest, you're going to hole a piston and rebuild your motor before this becomes an issue where the decomposition deteriorates and eats your pistons up. If you don't think that's true, you are more then welcome to check out my pistons and rings. Plasma Moly is directly effected by the decomposition to the point that you can see where the ring gaps are slowly erroded away. It's also the main reason why you don't want to run a Plasma Moly ring in a nitrous car (little did I know). It certainly will work but your ring gaps will creep open on you over time.

Unless you hydrolock your motor and spray into it at the same time, I don't think many of us have to worry about this one in our cars.


At 2 ppm I'm going to worry more about the long term effects of emitted hydrocarbons, carbon monoxide, and other gases coming out of the tail pipe in much larger doses and the ramifications that has to a few billion people.

From a priority perspective I think you should really figure out if your issue is with the use of Nitrous Oxide in general or a set of spark plugs. The fact that the spark plugs with the catalyst may amount to some slightly better gains in the efficiency of Nitrous Oxide with some very minor increases in it's corrosive properties. To be quite blunt, anyone who races hard enough that would go to such extremes is not going to give 2 cents on the fact that it might eat at your pistons and totally dissolve them in 20 years. I'll have gone through several sets of new pistons by then and this discussion will not have made one difference.

VIl

To FLYNLOW92rs:
You know, my time costs too much to read the marasmus some dummy scientist is writing, but I have searched the page for all words containing the letter combination "corr", but the only thing I found was
.
Isn`t it stupid???
(1) N2O never detonates.
(2) NO2 is not said in the text to be genereated during the reaction. The word corrosive in this text does not mean that it reacts with iron bringing diseasters to your engine. Nobody has spoilt an engine because of reaction of iron with any on nitrogen oxides.
(3) Corrosion and burning are the same processes - oxigenation. Imagine if all fuel does not burn to the end (of course I`m speaking about sport cars), there is no free oxigen left to react with iron (aluminium, ...)



Funny! Nitric acid can`t cause any danger to the engine, because it`s unstable at temps higher than 300 C. Anyway its amounts (unbelieveably small) can`t cause any damage even to exhaust system.



Holy sh#t!!! First put at least 1 liter of water to 5 liter motor and then heat it to a high temperature and wait a lot of time at this condition, then (maybe) the reaction will start...

The sources you are studying chemstry from are not only not correct, but simply they decieve!

Respect, Derty. You are the second of americans (the 1st is Mike Wood from NX) who fully understood the physics and chemistry of the process.

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (-1)

Exactly, just bringing to light that this catalyst will increase the corrosive properties of nitruos oxide and that's something that needs to be addressed....

Nitrous doesn't decompose when used in the engine as a off-the-shelf kit

There will only be a catalytic decomposition when reaching 600C, which it doesn't in an engine, that's why he is selling this product, so that nitrous CAN decompose in an internal combustion engine.......and the only way to do that is through the use of a catalyst so it can decompose at a lower temperature...

But enough with this arguement, the only way to get to the truth is if it's tested by the general public.......

DERTY

VII, I do have a technical question during your initial tests. With the increased efficiency did you find any correlation in your air/fuel ratios leaning out compared to your baseline? I'm curious if you've equated the effects of the 20% to the changes in the air to fuel ratios. And also went back to a standard plug with no catalyst, tweak the jet map to run ~20% leaner and compared the results. Just curious if you looked at these in comparison to differentiate them. Nothing keeps me from tightening up my fuel pressure or modifing my return line bleed off to lean out the engine. It would be interesting to understand the difference between leaning out the engine as compared to using the catalyst.

VIl

To derty:
You know, the main task of all power tuners is to put more air (oxigenator) into cylinders. For achieving this aim some clever people invented additional valves, turbo`s an N2O (as an air substitute). As you require 10-15 times less fuel,it is easy to add its equivalent amount, especially if you have an electronic control. That`s why sport cars (and even some stock) are built on a bit rich mixture.
What if a car will be used with a different gasoline, in other weather conditions?
In modern injection systems it is controlled by a feedback (oxygen tracking inside the exhaust). If the mix becomes poor, the jets are opened for a longer time. Try to add some amounts of N2O into a stock emgine and you will get about 20-25% of power addition (and so did we some time ago).
Add some fuel and you will get a major power addition. The growth of power will stop at the moment when correlation by computer will be impossible. Then iyou will need to change the computer, program...
Unless this limit is not reached, you can use different ways of injecting the oxygenator (air, N2O...) and also all ways of intensifying the fuel burning in this mixture. The system can cope with it itself, as we can see only 20% at the NX. But after some level the mix gets poor and fuel addition will be needed not only to raise the power, but to save the engine from a diseaster - detonation.

Concerning the fuel pressure. IT IS VERY VERY MUCH DANGEROUS!!!
Every month we have a burnt car on a racing weekend, because of broken fuel rail. Almost all fuel rails are plastic, so if it is made to work with 0.3 MPa pressure, it will never be safe to drive with 0.5 MPa. Imagine if fuel starts coming out of the rail. Rail is placed on an intake manifold (surely, you know this), which is usually placed over exhaust collector (or other hot devices). If fuel drops on these parts, nothing can save the car.

DERTY

I was more interested in the counter argument. If fuel pressure remains constant for that jet map, say 9.5 PSI through the appropriately sized flow jet. If your gain is done by releasing more oxygen into the system you've effectively increased the nitrous jet size altering the jet map and air/fuel ratios. My explanation was more simple originally, but the point is if you raise the oxygen count in the cylinder without increasing fuel you effectively can do the same thing by running 9.0 PSI through the same jets. I was more interested in how you account for the effective ratio of nitrous oxide to fuel that a standard jet map would provide. It could be the same as running a 26 jet for fuel on each cylinder and a 33 jet for nitrous instead of the required 31 for a 300 shot.

I'm just trying to get to a understanding of your gains with respect to air and fuel. For instance, I've run my car with a 300 shot at 10.5:1, 11.0:1 and 11.5:1 air fuel ratios. I bet you can tell without looking as to which run made more power. Now if my base tune was set to 11.0:1 (which it is) and then the catalyst effectively moved that curve to 11.8:1 or higher I wouldn't necessarily be comfortable under most conditions. Effectively that's the same as bleeding off some fuel through a larger return line orifice (equal or larger to your fuel jet), modifying fuel pressure or a wholesale jet change. Effectively if your gains were made by leaning out the mix, I was curious by how much.

Thanks!

VIl

To DERTY:

Only chemist in a drugstore can answer exactly.
This question may have an answer only after some tests, and the tests should be done in conditions, approximated to the real ones. Probably 12:1 would be enough, but this result should be shown in full arming: nitrous (required quantity)+catalyzer.

Concerning the increased pressure inside the fuel rail, (let me repeat) I consider this method harmful and fire hazardous. This stupid invention, pushed by Holley, MUST BE FORBIDDEN. ( ) Cars continue burning... not only in my country, but all around the world.

There is lots of ways to insure yourself, for example EFI by NX.

Our method is more unexpected. Despite smaller effect, it is absolutely safe and acceptable for everyone who does not want to brake the engine at the first race. My method is connected with dummy (maybe it`s not the right word, english is not native for me) reduce of temperature of the engine for injector computer. Its great benefit is that fuel system stays unchanged, but some wires are connected with the computer through which we put fixed data. Injection system starts adding more fuel and its amount may be easily regulated by variatin a resistance.

DERTY

I guess I should have clarified that our cars have steel fuel rails and lines, not plastic. Plus with a direct port system like mine, I don't have to worry about the issues you described. What you are talking about sounds more like a dry system then a wet system. If that's the case I wouldn't necessarily expect the engine to go as lean as what I can control through my direct port. I think that addresses my question. Thanks!

taqwache

OK lets end this arguement. I tell you what, send me 8 plugs with this coating on them for free. i will go to the dyno and make a couple of runs on the 200 shot with brand new NGK TR6s to get it tuned out (i have to anyways). then i will let it cool off, install your plugs, turn on the laptop to look for KR and make a few more runs. then i will post both graphs up here to show everybody and also show if there is any KR. i dont mind useing my motor for test purposes if it will help with the R@D of the oh mighty LS1 and nitrous use and give everybody on LS1tech some more info about our motors. also i dont think that a plug change could desrtoy it anyways. let me know. if it does work, you will be able to sell enough of these on this board to pay for mine.

thanks, Steve.

FLYNLOW92rs

iTrader: (-1)

Great way to end an arguement through testing.......

VIl

To taqwache:
For example I can coat for free, but who pays for delivery?

To DERTY:
I`m speaking not only about a dry system, but about all purposes of increasing fuel pressue.

Well, steel fuel rail is another business...

To FLYNLOW92rs:

Agree...

taqwache

how much is delivery for 8 plugs from russia to south texas? shouldnt be too much, and like i said, if they work, i will post the graphs here and you will be able to sell tons of them. i am already going to pay $100 to stay on the dyno for as long as i want so i can have time to change plugs and stuff.

VIl

The most convinient service (ups) takes about 100$/kg.
Maybe I can find your plugs in Russia. Write their #.

taqwache

NGK TR6s. i am not sure on the stock number on the box, i and sure some one here should have it and would chime in.

BlackCamaroSS02

iTrader: (8)

You da man cause god knows i wouldnt want to be the first to test them

blackws6-02

if whats being said is true and nitrous loves high compression.would this not benifit a stock engine 10.1 compression vs a higher compression to say?i had a 79 mustang that loved 250 shot on them 12.5 to1.higher compression will break down n2o quicker. on my mustang the etp(pyrometers) would read around 1200 degrees per cylinder.would breaking down the rate really benifit a high compression engine.at what cylindier pressure does nitrous start to break down?compression makes heat above 400 degrees.

jimmyblue

iTrader: (11)

Tell you what, I'd rather see you develop a catalyst
that makes it easy to make nitrous from compressed
air. Then we could run around with little compressors
refilling our tanks as we drive, and never run out of
reasons to laugh.

Get right on it, will ya?

VIl

To jimmyblue:
Maybe you would like to see a catalyzer that makes gold from a philosophical rock?

Medievial chemists spent their lives for achieving this aim and never did...



To blackws6-02:
Where did you find any words about compression? DERTY and I were speaking about Air/Fuel ratios. Compression does not affect N2O.
But a higher compression is always better than a low one...unless the detonation starts.

LS1Baron

Have you pulled your test engine to check for any lasting problems or undue mechanical stresses? While I may not be a chemist, I do know the ins and outs of engine design. Id be interested in a study of the engine torn down to the bare bolts, and miced (measured with a micrometer) to see if the process causes undue wear. Also, you should check for scoring/pitting in the combustion chamber. This type of testing is free. All it costs is your time.

Remember, designs that look good on paper can kill test pilots.