How does the MAF compensate for the dry shot?
02-09-2005, 04:49 PM
#181
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Originally Posted by Homeslice (tm)
It is a normally closed electromagnetic switch... plain and simple. It requires X amount of force to move the pintle, if the coil is no longer capable of providing that force then it fails to move the pintle and no fuel is allowed through.
Think of it as a relay... the relay never gets hung in the middle, it either closes the circuit or doesn't.
Think of it as a relay... the relay never gets hung in the middle, it either closes the circuit or doesn't.
When they short out or a coil wire is a clean break, then yes. Otherwise, a coil with damaged windings that are "weaker than good" but "not bad" can have problems staying open. They will tend to open normally, then from too much heat going through a weakened winding wire they will close prematurely. And relays suffer from the same thing. Relays will "chatter" sometimes when bad and this is exactly what I am talking about.
02-09-2005, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
You guys must be really scared of the bottle is all I can think.
There would be a fairly narrow range of % the fuel delivery would have to drop to be in the "dangerous lean" range instead of dropping down to the "lean misfire" range which is not even nearly so dangerous. The chances of an injector doing this repeatedly without misfiring and causing a surge detectible by the driver must be just astronomical.
Please understand these things:
1. A few random lean firings is NOT going to damage anything. Only several consecutive lean firings will heat the chamber to the point of detonation. Then if that's not felt by the driver or detected by the knock sensors, then yes it can cause damage. This is what you're afraid of.
2. Once the level of fuel drops below a certain amount for the amount of oxygen you get a lean misfire which is very erratic and incomplete combustion noticable by power loss and surging, but not dangerous.
Homeslice's saturated injectors were keeping him at least in the mid 10's AFR, so they could afford to lose a pretty good bit of flow and still be in the safe range.
I think some of you guys have heard too many horror stories about nitrous damaging engines without knowing the whole story behind the damage.
I've seen so many dumb things done by nitrous users that caused damage that I'd never even remember them all. Funny thing is that they are usually quick to dismiss a dumb mistake on their part and start pointing fingers at something else, or they just never came to realize what the real mistake was.
I know you'll want examples so here goes.
1. Run a TPI system with the accessory belt off and bottle it... heat-soaked chambers and only 10volts to run the fuel pump + for the injector driver to run all 8 injectors = quick death.
2. Plugged gas tank vent = much less fuel volume the pump is able to move.
3. Pull up to the line at 220*F and stock heat-range spark plugs in, and hit the 150 shot.
4. Running nitrous through a catalytic converter.
5. Let off the gas first, then let off the nitrous later.
6. Go into an overdrive gear still on the bottle.
7. Spraying with a manual transmission & EFI and letting off the gas pedal to shift.
8. Racing without a sumped fuel tank when you're almost on empty.
9. Cruising around all night in traffic heat-soaking the engine, then spraying it without even knowing the bottle pressure.
10. Wire for fuel pump shoved loosely into a fuse slot under the dash.
Just to name a few.
Nitrous is by far the easiest power adder, but you should still know what you're doing and be prepared before you use it, have a problem, and then blame the nitrous, or assume it's a shortcoming in your fuel system.
Just my opinion.
There would be a fairly narrow range of % the fuel delivery would have to drop to be in the "dangerous lean" range instead of dropping down to the "lean misfire" range which is not even nearly so dangerous. The chances of an injector doing this repeatedly without misfiring and causing a surge detectible by the driver must be just astronomical.
Please understand these things:
1. A few random lean firings is NOT going to damage anything. Only several consecutive lean firings will heat the chamber to the point of detonation. Then if that's not felt by the driver or detected by the knock sensors, then yes it can cause damage. This is what you're afraid of.
2. Once the level of fuel drops below a certain amount for the amount of oxygen you get a lean misfire which is very erratic and incomplete combustion noticable by power loss and surging, but not dangerous.
Homeslice's saturated injectors were keeping him at least in the mid 10's AFR, so they could afford to lose a pretty good bit of flow and still be in the safe range.
I think some of you guys have heard too many horror stories about nitrous damaging engines without knowing the whole story behind the damage.
I've seen so many dumb things done by nitrous users that caused damage that I'd never even remember them all. Funny thing is that they are usually quick to dismiss a dumb mistake on their part and start pointing fingers at something else, or they just never came to realize what the real mistake was.
I know you'll want examples so here goes.
1. Run a TPI system with the accessory belt off and bottle it... heat-soaked chambers and only 10volts to run the fuel pump + for the injector driver to run all 8 injectors = quick death.
2. Plugged gas tank vent = much less fuel volume the pump is able to move.
3. Pull up to the line at 220*F and stock heat-range spark plugs in, and hit the 150 shot.
4. Running nitrous through a catalytic converter.
5. Let off the gas first, then let off the nitrous later.
6. Go into an overdrive gear still on the bottle.
7. Spraying with a manual transmission & EFI and letting off the gas pedal to shift.
8. Racing without a sumped fuel tank when you're almost on empty.
9. Cruising around all night in traffic heat-soaking the engine, then spraying it without even knowing the bottle pressure.
10. Wire for fuel pump shoved loosely into a fuse slot under the dash.
Just to name a few.
Nitrous is by far the easiest power adder, but you should still know what you're doing and be prepared before you use it, have a problem, and then blame the nitrous, or assume it's a shortcoming in your fuel system.
Just my opinion.
Not scared at all, just not stupid. I have sprayed the same amount as you two, if not more. The only difference is that I see where a shortcoming is and fix that $450 shortcoming first, instead of a $2500 bill from being to cheap or dumb to see the problem first.
02-09-2005, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlackRamAirT/A
Not scared at all, just not stupid. I have sprayed the same amount as you two, if not more. The only difference is that I see where a shortcoming is and fix that $450 shortcoming first, instead of a $2500 bill from being to cheap or dumb to see the problem first.
It also sounds like you think I'm cheap and dumb for spending $100 on stock LS1 injectors instead of $450 for whatever you got.
I guess you got a written garantee that your $450 injectors have never been taken over 85% and will never begin to fail by partially openning causing you to go lean and cost you the $2500 you mention.
So where can we get those injectors with a garantee?
We don't want to be dumb anymore.
02-09-2005, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
Sounds a lot like scared to me still.
It also sounds like you think I'm cheap and dumb for spending $100 on stock LS1 injectors instead of $450 for whatever you got.
I guess you got a written garantee that your $450 injectors have never been taken over 85% and will never begin to fail by partially openning causing you to go lean and cost you the $2500 you mention.
So where can we get those injectors with a garantee?
We don't want to be dumb anymore.
It also sounds like you think I'm cheap and dumb for spending $100 on stock LS1 injectors instead of $450 for whatever you got.
I guess you got a written garantee that your $450 injectors have never been taken over 85% and will never begin to fail by partially openning causing you to go lean and cost you the $2500 you mention.
So where can we get those injectors with a garantee?
We don't want to be dumb anymore.
You just dont get it, do you? Im getting tired of your uneducated replies to people with common sense. I am not scared, thats just a stupid comment to make. Because I don't want to risk my motor I'm scared?, get a clue dude. I spent $450 on big injectors because I have big plans for my car in the future, and it just so happens that they will work with the current setup too. For you to argue piece of mind is rediculous. As was stated before, a 10 bolt will hold fine for some time, but its on borrowed time under more power just like your stock injectors. About your written guarentee bs, you're kidding right?, because the more **** that dribbles out of your mouth, the less knowledgable you sound. Im not going to explain what has already be explained 10 times before about electronics and their workings. If you feel comfortable doing what you are doing, more power to ya. Just don't spew this babble out and cause someone who doesn't know any better to damage their stuff.
02-09-2005, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlackRamAirT/A
You just dont get it, do you? Im getting tired of your uneducated replies to people with common sense. I am not scared, thats just a stupid comment to make. Because I don't want to risk my motor I'm scared?, get a clue dude. I spent $450 on big injectors because I have big plans for my car in the future, and it just so happens that they will work with the current setup too. For you to argue piece of mind is rediculous. As was stated before, a 10 bolt will hold fine for some time, but its on borrowed time under more power just like your stock injectors. About your written guarentee bs, you're kidding right?, because the more **** that dribbles out of your mouth, the less knowledgable you sound. Im not going to explain what has already be explained 10 times before about electronics and their workings. If you feel comfortable doing what you are doing, more power to ya. Just don't spew this babble out and cause someone who doesn't know any better to damage their stuff.
1) This problem you say happens to fuel injectors has never happened to you or anyone else here with an LS1 (excluding guys on boost and Mustang drivers)
2) Noone can tell me why it is so dangerous to do for 10 seconds at a time when static operation is programmed into the PCM and it's the same method used to TEST FUEL INJECTORS and determine their flow. If you know what injectors you have in your car... it's because somebody ran them static.
3) I have tested and tested and provided you data on WB readings that all point to the fact that your worry about injector failure is just flat wrong and yet you still tell me I'm wrong and it's gonna blow up yet you have no test data nor personal experience to prove it. I'm just supposed to take you at your word and when I don't immediately bow to your immaginary wisdom you get pissed off.
4) I have explained to you that the likelyhood of an injector failing as you have described is an indescribably miniscule possibility greatly eclipsed by the chances of a meteor impact at the 1/8th mile causing you to crash. You must be the most **** retentive person on the face of the planet to be so worried about this miniscule chance that I can't believe that you actually race your car. You know that going static with your gas pedal is extremely dangerous and likely to cause premature engine death right?
My advise to you and the mustang guy are to do some testing... get your injectors to fail as you say and provide the real data instead of fearmongering with loose opinions based on incomplete data. I've done the testing and haven't been able to fail an injector yet in the manner you describe... that is a hard and fast FACT, something you guys are lacking. So please don't respond back unless you go do your homework. If you want to spend the money because you are afraid of this risk (although there are far greater ones you SHOULD be worried about) then that is your personal choice and that's fine... but don't get all pissy with us because we don't change our minds because you said so. We answered the question in the thread and you don't like it... waaaaaaaa. I'd be a hell of a lot more interested in what you say if you actually told us any personal experience you had with this.
Last edited by Homeslice (tm); 02-10-2005 at 09:00 AM.
02-10-2005, 12:20 AM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlackRamAirT/A
You just dont get it, do you? Im getting tired of your uneducated replies to people with common sense. I am not scared, thats just a stupid comment to make. Because I don't want to risk my motor I'm scared?, get a clue dude. I spent $450 on big injectors because I have big plans for my car in the future, and it just so happens that they will work with the current setup too. For you to argue piece of mind is rediculous. As was stated before, a 10 bolt will hold fine for some time, but its on borrowed time under more power just like your stock injectors. About your written guarentee bs, you're kidding right?, because the more **** that dribbles out of your mouth, the less knowledgable you sound. Im not going to explain what has already be explained 10 times before about electronics and their workings. If you feel comfortable doing what you are doing, more power to ya. Just don't spew this babble out and cause someone who doesn't know any better to damage their stuff.
Listen closely if you're so into common sense.
If you really don't want to risk your motor, then NEVER go WOT and stay as far away from racing as you can get. Simple.
Your fears and theories have proven absolutely nothing about the power capability of the stock injectors, only that you think you're engine is indestructable with your larger injectors. You're fooling yourself is all.
Your best bet is to watch others do things that you refuse to even imagine from the safety of your seat in the stands.
you asked for it.
Homeslice, since you're planning on upgrading the heads why don't you pull yours off and get some pictures of all that $2500 of damage you must have by now. I'm sure those lean cylinders will stick out like a sore thumb.
Let the pics speak for themselves to provide at least some real data to judge by.
02-10-2005, 12:57 AM
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
You're a ****** plain and simple. You've got big plans but have never really done **** yourself... sorry but it's obvious now.
Listen closely if you're so into common sense.
If you really don't want to risk your motor, then NEVER go WOT and stay as far away from racing as you can get. Simple.
Your fears and theories have proven absolutely nothing about the power capability of the stock injectors, only that you think you're engine is indestructable with your larger injectors. You're fooling yourself is all.
Your best bet is to watch others do things that you refuse to even imagine from the safety of your seat in the stands.
you asked for it.
Homeslice, since you're planning on upgrading the heads why don't you pull yours off and get some pictures of all that $2500 of damage you must have by now. I'm sure those lean cylinders will stick out like a sore thumb.
Let the pics speak for themselves to provide at least some real data to judge by.
Listen closely if you're so into common sense.
If you really don't want to risk your motor, then NEVER go WOT and stay as far away from racing as you can get. Simple.
Your fears and theories have proven absolutely nothing about the power capability of the stock injectors, only that you think you're engine is indestructable with your larger injectors. You're fooling yourself is all.
Your best bet is to watch others do things that you refuse to even imagine from the safety of your seat in the stands.
you asked for it.
Homeslice, since you're planning on upgrading the heads why don't you pull yours off and get some pictures of all that $2500 of damage you must have by now. I'm sure those lean cylinders will stick out like a sore thumb.
Let the pics speak for themselves to provide at least some real data to judge by.
02-10-2005, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
Two normally closed solenoid valves....
you explain to us exactly what makes them so different.
The obvious is that the N2O solenoid is low impedence and requires much more current generating that much more heat.
Apparently it's just a timebomb just waiting to cause a lean condition when you need it the most.
I believe your whole duty cycle scare originated many years ago with the crowd that made hot-rodding the 80's years mustang 5.0's so popular.
There is a shred of truth to it, but you have to take into account the boneheads that came up with those conclusions.
Forced induction with centrifugal blowers & FMU's were the craze.
It turns out that in fact some injectors designed to run at 45psi do have some problems when asked to go over 80% duty cycle at 90psi (courtesy of the FMU).
It didn't take long before it was the cool thing to be running larger injectors on every 5.0 out there. Popping the hood and bragging about your injector size was a right of manhood. You've got to have big injectors if you're making big power right? yep.
These are 13 & 14 second cars I'm talking about running bigger injectors because they thought they needed them. The excuses for upgrading have been many, duty cycle too high- all the way to delusions of massive power. It just became the cool thing to do.
There are definately cases where an engine needs much bigger injectors to handle the fuel flow, but those cases are less common than people want to believe.
Now this question must come up: If running the duty cycle so high on an injector is a very damanging or dangerous thing to do, then why is the PCM programmed to do it so well without any warning lights, error codes, or fuel cut?
Maybe those guys should consult with you before they come out with the next version of the code.
you explain to us exactly what makes them so different.
The obvious is that the N2O solenoid is low impedence and requires much more current generating that much more heat.
Apparently it's just a timebomb just waiting to cause a lean condition when you need it the most.
I believe your whole duty cycle scare originated many years ago with the crowd that made hot-rodding the 80's years mustang 5.0's so popular.
There is a shred of truth to it, but you have to take into account the boneheads that came up with those conclusions.
Forced induction with centrifugal blowers & FMU's were the craze.
It turns out that in fact some injectors designed to run at 45psi do have some problems when asked to go over 80% duty cycle at 90psi (courtesy of the FMU).
It didn't take long before it was the cool thing to be running larger injectors on every 5.0 out there. Popping the hood and bragging about your injector size was a right of manhood. You've got to have big injectors if you're making big power right? yep.
These are 13 & 14 second cars I'm talking about running bigger injectors because they thought they needed them. The excuses for upgrading have been many, duty cycle too high- all the way to delusions of massive power. It just became the cool thing to do.
There are definately cases where an engine needs much bigger injectors to handle the fuel flow, but those cases are less common than people want to believe.
Now this question must come up: If running the duty cycle so high on an injector is a very damanging or dangerous thing to do, then why is the PCM programmed to do it so well without any warning lights, error codes, or fuel cut?
Maybe those guys should consult with you before they come out with the next version of the code.
I do have to agree with everything you just said. I can relate to that. I did have to change my injectors though because they would reach the fuel cut and surge the car like it was trying to die. So I swapped to a bigger injector (42's) and the car hasnt done it since.
Mike
02-10-2005, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlackRamAirT/A
Please tell me how you know it will fail closed. How do you know that it will not weaken and try to stay open but since the coil inside is weakened it will be running at 50% persay. Explain this to me. If it just totally dies than yes, there is no fuel. But coils do not usually just die. They weaken over time and lose the electro-magnetic force they once had.
Mike
02-10-2005, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
You're a ****** plain and simple. You've got big plans but have never really done **** yourself... sorry but it's obvious now.
Listen closely if you're so into common sense.
If you really don't want to risk your motor, then NEVER go WOT and stay as far away from racing as you can get. Simple.
Your fears and theories have proven absolutely nothing about the power capability of the stock injectors, only that you think you're engine is indestructable with your larger injectors. You're fooling yourself is all.
Your best bet is to watch others do things that you refuse to even imagine from the safety of your seat in the stands.
you asked for it.
Homeslice, since you're planning on upgrading the heads why don't you pull yours off and get some pictures of all that $2500 of damage you must have by now. I'm sure those lean cylinders will stick out like a sore thumb.
Let the pics speak for themselves to provide at least some real data to judge by.
Listen closely if you're so into common sense.
If you really don't want to risk your motor, then NEVER go WOT and stay as far away from racing as you can get. Simple.
Your fears and theories have proven absolutely nothing about the power capability of the stock injectors, only that you think you're engine is indestructable with your larger injectors. You're fooling yourself is all.
Your best bet is to watch others do things that you refuse to even imagine from the safety of your seat in the stands.
you asked for it.
Homeslice, since you're planning on upgrading the heads why don't you pull yours off and get some pictures of all that $2500 of damage you must have by now. I'm sure those lean cylinders will stick out like a sore thumb.
Let the pics speak for themselves to provide at least some real data to judge by.
Hey jerky, I will guarentee that I have done my homework and that I was there long before you and your butt buddy. I never tried to get you to change your mind, just to stop spreading false info. Yes, I have failed an injector before, albeit not in an LS1. Does this matter?, not at all, because LS1 or not all injectors operate the on the same principle and you stating "not on a mustang blah blah blah" shows your miseducation. Like I said, if you wanna risk it go ahead, its not my car and I dont really care what you two puds do with it. You make no sense, I never said my motor was indestructable with bigger injectors
, just that I know there is less of a chance of them causing a bigger problem from being mis-used. If you buy the vette but can't afford injectors, maybe you shouldn't have bought the vette. 
Also, I've probably broken more **** at the track then you have gotten your hands on, so your whole afraid of racing schpeel doesn't hold up again. See, real racers abuse the car, find the weak points, and fix them all while taking advice from others that have been there before. Been there done that, and I know what will go. Last, I never said maxing out the injectors is causing damage now, dumbass, I said when it fails, which it will eventually, it will cause damage. Get the *** out of your eyes and read what I wrote next time. I'm done with you two hacks, have fun with whatever replies you are going to make. 
02-10-2005, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlackRamAirT/A
Hey jerky, I will guarentee that I have done my homework and that I was there long before you and your butt buddy. I never tried to get you to change your mind, just to stop spreading false info. Yes, I have failed an injector before, albeit not in an LS1. Does this matter?, not at all, because LS1 or not all injectors operate the on the same principle and you stating "not on a mustang blah blah blah" shows your miseducation. Like I said, if you wanna risk it go ahead, its not my car and I dont really care what you two puds do with it. You make no sense, I never said my motor was indestructable with bigger injectors , just that I know there is less of a chance of them causing a bigger problem from being mis-used. If you buy the vette but can't afford injectors, maybe you shouldn't have bought the vette. Also, I've probably broken more **** at the track then you have gotten your hands on, so your whole afraid of racing schpeel doesn't hold up again. See, real racers abuse the car, find the weak points, and fix them all while taking advice from others that have been there before. Been there done that, and I know what will go. Last, I never said maxing out the injectors is causing damage now, dumbass, I said when it fails, which it will eventually, it will cause damage. Get the *** out of your eyes and read what I wrote next time. I'm done with you two hacks, have fun with whatever replies you are going to make.
, just that I know there is less of a chance of them causing a bigger problem from being mis-used. If you buy the vette but can't afford injectors, maybe you shouldn't have bought the vette. Also, I've probably broken more **** at the track then you have gotten your hands on, so your whole afraid of racing schpeel doesn't hold up again. See, real racers abuse the car, find the weak points, and fix them all while taking advice from others that have been there before. Been there done that, and I know what will go. Last, I never said maxing out the injectors is causing damage now, dumbass, I said when it fails, which it will eventually, it will cause damage. Get the *** out of your eyes and read what I wrote next time. I'm done with you two hacks, have fun with whatever replies you are going to make.
02-10-2005, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Homeslice (tm)
Hey Nancy... I really doubt you were there before White lol. So the answer is NO you have never failed an LS1 injector before. Thank you, that is all, you can shut up now. You have again proven to everybody that you do not indeed know **** about what you are talking about, its all theory with you... you just said it yourself. Buh bye now (although I'm sure you'll post again, all you morons come back like herpes when you get all **** hurt)
I just have to reply to this one. So tell me what makes the almighty LS1 injector different then say a mustang injector. I'd love to hear your answer to this one. Oh and also, Ill bet I was there before white.
02-10-2005, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by TripleBlackRamAirT/A
I just have to reply to this one. So tell me what makes the almighty LS1 injector different then say a mustang injector. I'd love to hear your answer to this one. Oh and also, Ill bet I was there before white.
There is no difference in mechanics or failure likelyhood, any increase in the failure rate of previous systems are more likely due to a shortcomming in some other system (ie injector driver ciruit not being able to deliver sufficient current, batch fire system going static, etc). I don't think you dissected your injector to determine the source of failure was too much duty cycle. Did you? I don't think you know what failed on that 1 injector of all the ones you have used in your many years of racing lol. I think you had a cylinder pop on you and you blamed the injector and got bigger ones without cutting it open to check for those "damaged windings". You could have just as easily had some **** make it through the filter and clog it. YOU DIDN'T DO ANY TESTING BUT YOU SURE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED. Again, you provided no facts just your guess which statistically speaking isn't worth a ****.
02-11-2005, 08:01 AM
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Ohhhh noooo Pics of my destroyed engine.
Again, running >200 shot dry with the OMG Stock Injectors.
Here you can clearly see the damage to my chambers from running so lean.
And here are the melted remains of my plugs, geez they look unhappy.
And finally, the culprit. Those damned factory injectors that are too small and caused all that damage above.
If you look, I'm sure you can see one of those damaged coils poking out the side from all that static operation.
Again, running >200 shot dry with the OMG Stock Injectors.
Here you can clearly see the damage to my chambers from running so lean.
And here are the melted remains of my plugs, geez they look unhappy.
And finally, the culprit. Those damned factory injectors that are too small and caused all that damage above.
If you look, I'm sure you can see one of those damaged coils poking out the side from all that static operation.
02-11-2005, 09:19 AM
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hahaha pictures as proof.
Well you know the guy worded his response by saying that yes there will not be any damage until an injector "decides" to have a problem.
Apparently they are very moody pieces of electronic gear,
and/or they are subject to random acts of God.
The mustang argument was correct. They used a different injector driver than the GM TPI systems, and adding boost is a completely different game as the injector fires into a higher than atmospheric pressure instead of lower. The problem isn't with the electronics in the injector, but a reduction in flow through the injector due to decreased volume through the system.
If anything the fuel flow and distribution would become better and more predictable in a static situation because of the absense of the pulsing in the system.
So tripleslow-hotair, those were some pretty harsh insults and really not called for. They sure don't give any more merrit to your technical argument.
You say that you failed an injector in the way that you theorize... then prove it. Apparently you must have had a catastophic failure on one cylinder, and no doubt took all your injectors to someone with an injector flow bench to get them flowed. They put them static to test the flow, then bingo one of them was down on flow right? is that right? is that what you did?
Maybe you just tested them with an ohm-meter and saw that one was out of standard?
okay, maybe you did this, so now how do you prove the injector wasn't down due to a random defect, heat soaking, or just plain normal use (high miles)?
You sure wouldn't have been able to tell a problem just driving around normally because the factory O2's take a collective reading and the code will just adjust if one cylinder falls a little lean. You could've been driving around for ages with a low injector and never known about it unless you have a wide-band O2 in every header pipe.
So let me guess, you had them all flowed and checked them all with an ohm-meter right before making the death-pass, and then checked everything again minutes later after the injector failed?
Honestly I think you're full of **** and never did any of this, and therefor have no conclusive evidence to support your fear-mongering. In fact I bet you cannot name the person who has actually done controlled tests on static injector operation.
I bet your "homework" consisted of reading every issue of GM high-tech magazine, surfing the internet, and bs'ing with your buddies who do race.
Maybe not, maybe you've been racing with EFI since 1990 and own a ton of your own test equipment, and you should get credit for having a grasp on reality... but based on what you've posted so far I'd bet my $$ on NO.
Well you know the guy worded his response by saying that yes there will not be any damage until an injector "decides" to have a problem.
Apparently they are very moody pieces of electronic gear,
and/or they are subject to random acts of God.
The mustang argument was correct. They used a different injector driver than the GM TPI systems, and adding boost is a completely different game as the injector fires into a higher than atmospheric pressure instead of lower. The problem isn't with the electronics in the injector, but a reduction in flow through the injector due to decreased volume through the system.
If anything the fuel flow and distribution would become better and more predictable in a static situation because of the absense of the pulsing in the system.
So tripleslow-hotair, those were some pretty harsh insults and really not called for. They sure don't give any more merrit to your technical argument.
You say that you failed an injector in the way that you theorize... then prove it. Apparently you must have had a catastophic failure on one cylinder, and no doubt took all your injectors to someone with an injector flow bench to get them flowed. They put them static to test the flow, then bingo one of them was down on flow right? is that right? is that what you did?
Maybe you just tested them with an ohm-meter and saw that one was out of standard?
okay, maybe you did this, so now how do you prove the injector wasn't down due to a random defect, heat soaking, or just plain normal use (high miles)?
You sure wouldn't have been able to tell a problem just driving around normally because the factory O2's take a collective reading and the code will just adjust if one cylinder falls a little lean. You could've been driving around for ages with a low injector and never known about it unless you have a wide-band O2 in every header pipe.
So let me guess, you had them all flowed and checked them all with an ohm-meter right before making the death-pass, and then checked everything again minutes later after the injector failed?
Honestly I think you're full of **** and never did any of this, and therefor have no conclusive evidence to support your fear-mongering. In fact I bet you cannot name the person who has actually done controlled tests on static injector operation.
I bet your "homework" consisted of reading every issue of GM high-tech magazine, surfing the internet, and bs'ing with your buddies who do race.
Maybe not, maybe you've been racing with EFI since 1990 and own a ton of your own test equipment, and you should get credit for having a grasp on reality... but based on what you've posted so far I'd bet my $$ on NO.
02-11-2005, 10:44 AM
#197
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Originally Posted by white2001s10
hahaha pictures as proof.
Well you know the guy worded his response by saying that yes there will not be any damage until an injector "decides" to have a problem.
Apparently they are very moody pieces of electronic gear,
and/or they are subject to random acts of God.
The mustang argument was correct. They used a different injector driver than the GM TPI systems, and adding boost is a completely different game as the injector fires into a higher than atmospheric pressure instead of lower. The problem isn't with the electronics in the injector, but a reduction in flow through the injector due to decreased volume through the system.
If anything the fuel flow and distribution would become better and more predictable in a static situation because of the absense of the pulsing in the system.
So tripleslow-hotair, those were some pretty harsh insults and really not called for. They sure don't give any more merrit to your technical argument.
You say that you failed an injector in the way that you theorize... then prove it. Apparently you must have had a catastophic failure on one cylinder, and no doubt took all your injectors to someone with an injector flow bench to get them flowed. They put them static to test the flow, then bingo one of them was down on flow right? is that right? is that what you did?
Maybe you just tested them with an ohm-meter and saw that one was out of standard?
okay, maybe you did this, so now how do you prove the injector wasn't down due to a random defect, heat soaking, or just plain normal use (high miles)?
You sure wouldn't have been able to tell a problem just driving around normally because the factory O2's take a collective reading and the code will just adjust if one cylinder falls a little lean. You could've been driving around for ages with a low injector and never known about it unless you have a wide-band O2 in every header pipe.
So let me guess, you had them all flowed and checked them all with an ohm-meter right before making the death-pass, and then checked everything again minutes later after the injector failed?
Honestly I think you're full of **** and never did any of this, and therefor have no conclusive evidence to support your fear-mongering. In fact I bet you cannot name the person who has actually done controlled tests on static injector operation.
I bet your "homework" consisted of reading every issue of GM high-tech magazine, surfing the internet, and bs'ing with your buddies who do race.
Maybe not, maybe you've been racing with EFI since 1990 and own a ton of your own test equipment, and you should get credit for having a grasp on reality... but based on what you've posted so far I'd bet my $$ on NO.
Well you know the guy worded his response by saying that yes there will not be any damage until an injector "decides" to have a problem.
Apparently they are very moody pieces of electronic gear,
and/or they are subject to random acts of God.
The mustang argument was correct. They used a different injector driver than the GM TPI systems, and adding boost is a completely different game as the injector fires into a higher than atmospheric pressure instead of lower. The problem isn't with the electronics in the injector, but a reduction in flow through the injector due to decreased volume through the system.
If anything the fuel flow and distribution would become better and more predictable in a static situation because of the absense of the pulsing in the system.
So tripleslow-hotair, those were some pretty harsh insults and really not called for. They sure don't give any more merrit to your technical argument.
You say that you failed an injector in the way that you theorize... then prove it. Apparently you must have had a catastophic failure on one cylinder, and no doubt took all your injectors to someone with an injector flow bench to get them flowed. They put them static to test the flow, then bingo one of them was down on flow right? is that right? is that what you did?
Maybe you just tested them with an ohm-meter and saw that one was out of standard?
okay, maybe you did this, so now how do you prove the injector wasn't down due to a random defect, heat soaking, or just plain normal use (high miles)?
You sure wouldn't have been able to tell a problem just driving around normally because the factory O2's take a collective reading and the code will just adjust if one cylinder falls a little lean. You could've been driving around for ages with a low injector and never known about it unless you have a wide-band O2 in every header pipe.
So let me guess, you had them all flowed and checked them all with an ohm-meter right before making the death-pass, and then checked everything again minutes later after the injector failed?
Honestly I think you're full of **** and never did any of this, and therefor have no conclusive evidence to support your fear-mongering. In fact I bet you cannot name the person who has actually done controlled tests on static injector operation.
I bet your "homework" consisted of reading every issue of GM high-tech magazine, surfing the internet, and bs'ing with your buddies who do race.
Maybe not, maybe you've been racing with EFI since 1990 and own a ton of your own test equipment, and you should get credit for having a grasp on reality... but based on what you've posted so far I'd bet my $$ on NO.
Those exhaust valves are reading lean by the color of what...Mine usually read gray to light gray when i tore mine down for a freshen up last year. FWIW..>Carry on with the wanksters!
Mike
02-11-2005, 01:54 PM
#198
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Actually it was decided with pyrometers in each header tube, yes thats 8 of them, then switched injectors around and the same problem happened in the new cylinder. You guys are too funny though.
02-11-2005, 01:59 PM
#199
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And I'll say it yet again, I never said there would be damage, just a greater chance that there could be. Anyone with a little common sense wouldnt want to risk it in my opinion, but what do I know. Here we got two hillbillies, cledus and darryl, arguing with the facts just because it hasn't happened to them yet. Keep up the good work fellas, and let us know when you find out that a little bit of gorilla glue on the stock rodbolts will be good for holding 10,000 rpms.
02-11-2005, 02:23 PM
#200
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Originally Posted by TripleBlackRamAirT/A
And I'll say it yet again, I never said there would be damage, just a greater chance that there could be. Anyone with a little common sense wouldnt want to risk it in my opinion, but what do I know. Here we got two hillbillies, cledus and darryl, arguing with the facts just because it hasn't happened to them yet. Keep up the good work fellas, and let us know when you find out that a little bit of gorilla glue on the stock rodbolts will be good for holding 10,000 rpms.
http://home.comcast.net/~chalupa28/ws6atco.WMV
Now that's safe right thurr.... would want all that dangerous SPEED to cause problems.Funny you have money for individual cylinder pyrometers but not enough for a roof there Safety Man... lol
Every part in your engine is eventually going to fail... better not even start the engine. Then it'll last forever.
