So what happens when it fails Einstein? So it stay's shut and fails... awww damn. No fuel is not a lean condition, it's a no run condition. You will not detonate and destroy your engine by having no fuel in the cylinder. I can't tell you how many engines I've had blow the hell up with no fuel in the cylinders lol Gimme a break, if that's the risk then ok I'll take it.

 

Yes.. you are right I've seen the error of my ways.


EVERYBODY MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION.... GO BUY A COBRA AND SPENT THOUSANDS ON IT SO YOU CAN RUN WITH THE STOCK LS1 BOTTLE CARS!!!!!

 

LMAO, is that the best you can do?? FWIW, that 11.6@122 was with o/r xpipe, jlt cai, and a 2.76 pulley. I wouldn't exactly call that thousands ($520 to be exact), but since you are good at telling nonsense stories, and making rediculous claims, I will just go along with it. It's REAL sad that you have to resort to false statements like that.

 

This from the man who just told me my car can blow up with no fuel in the chamber. lol I'm sorry... that's just funny. I'm dying here lol

 

Man, you are pathetic. It's common sense that not only can an injector completely shut, but USUALLY the performance of the injectors starts to decrease as you run a higher cycle on them (especially running a real high duty cycle on them). Think of it as a dirty fuel injector while spraying a 200 shot, if you will. That TINY little bit of fuel getting through with the entirely too weak and few pulses WILL cause a lean condition.

 

Shut ALL OF THE WAY, or shut enough to allow a little bit of fuel, or a weakend/shortend pulse width are common in bad injectors (the latter the more common).

It's your car and your risk, I could honestly care less. TO OPENLY inform people that they are fine running stock injectors on a 200 dry shot is just ignorant. I REALLY hope that nobody takes your advice.

 

Dynocar probably explained it in the clearest of ways........

 

First off, his Vette is probably making 450 rwhp at his raceweight and trap speed. So his injectors are probably capable of staying in the ballpark, but they are likely at their limit.

i for one would not run injectors at 130% dutycycle. there is a diminishing window as rpm rises for the injector to get the spray onto an open intake valve. You basically revert to a carburetor style injection patern if your spraying fuel on the back of a closed intake valve. Itll get fuel in the cylinder, but I dont know how accurately.

The thing about how much fuel is consumed by a high or low geared car... some are slightly confused turning more rpm isnt necessarily going to require MORE fuel. The window gets smaller. The largest injector pulsewidth (and amount of fuel) injected into the engine should occur at peak torque and tailer off after that.. except some boost setups will maintain for longer Generally your injector pulsewidth curve will mimic your torque curve to an extent

 

Time to get back to some facts here.
At this point we KNOW this:

1. Stock injectors can fuel a 200hp shot on a stock LS1 car.

2. Cobra drivers are all egomaniacs and homos as well.


An engine revolving 100 times in ten seconds is going to require more fuel than an engine revolving 50 times in the same ten seconds. It's a fact.

Yes the engine uses less fuel per revolution as the RPM increase past peak torque, but you also have to apply fuel usage over the higher average engine speed vs time.

A lower geared car or an M6 will turn the engine more revolutions during a ten second time span because of the higher average RPM held during the run.

Oh, and injectors firing when the intake valve is closed is just fine.
Carburetion, CFI, TPI, and the other batch fire injection systems have been proving this for years.

Cobra boy, why do all you cobra drivers have this chip on your shoulder and/or some other type of odd personality disorder? Do you feel compelled to not only beat the world down a quarter mile, but to also convice all of us that your countless hours pouring over mustang magazines and reading in tech forums has forged you as the ultimate technical wizard?

How is calling B.S. on something that probably ran faster than you for less $, and giving warnings based more on theory than reality such great technical advice? Why don't you just let it go and be happy with your own personal choices?
It's not our fault that you chose to drive the symbol of gay pride . It's not our fault that you chose to spend more money on manual transmission parts, monster injectors, and multiple power adders to go fast. So please stop trying to verbally punish us because we don't all follow your lead.

You told us that we're both idiots. Well we were in fact successful at what we did and didn't need any excuses. Denial doesn't make you look like any less of an idiot. Faith, in theory, instead of the results of actual experiment and application does not make you look like less of an idiot... just more of a follower and magazine racer.

 

This is true, and not ONCE did I deny that. HOWEVER, running a 200 dry shot on a stock fuel system is extremely ditremental to the injectors. How you continue to argue that it's perfectly fine for the injector, is beyond me.

LMAO. You just don't get it, do YOU???? You know that by making comments that you did above, YOU are the egomaniac. Think about it for a second . I have already stated that I love LS1's, fbodies, LS6's, supra's, EVERYTHING. I like cars that go fast, and could care less what it is. Most of my family members own LS1's. I have nothing against LS1's, and love f-bodies. I was also going to purchase an 02 Z06 before I decided on the 03 cobra. Your "egomaniac" argument isn't the best one to use with me . As to being homo's, what, are you in 4th grade??? Maybe that upset you or yourboyfreind when someone called you a homo, but for the rest of the people, we really don't care. I don't even know why I responded that much to it. HOWEVER, you are WRONG with your theory that running a 200 dry shot and well over 450rwhp on a stock fuel system is perfectly safe. Your are also WAY OFF on your opinion on how injectors work.

As to the rest of your probably rediculous claims post, I did not read it. I honestly don't care at this point. I hope you actually learned that running an injector at max. duty cycle is not good for the injector, and could lead to a potential lean problem, possibly taking out some parts in your motor. If you haven't learned that much, than you deserve to blow your engine. I just hope that you don't continue to give such poor advice to people, by explaining to them that it's perfectly safe to run a 200 shot on a completely stock LS1 fuel system.

Than again, need we argue this anymore after your or your boyfriends claim that....



Yep, who cares, it's just a number. I DO HOWEVER, see you are using 28 pound injectors. Again, by your theory you should be able to get away with 14# injectors. Why don't you sell your 28's (or whatever they are) and save some of that money you are complaining about.

 

1. Then you should also love homeslice's vette because it's fast for what it is.

2. I'm pretty sure neither of us explained to anyone that it's perfectly safe to run any amount of nitrous on any engine... or even go WOT on a stock engine for that matter.

FWIW if we ever have injectors that overheat and melt down to China, or explode into orbit, we will remember your words of warning and appologize for being such idiots. Since the fuel solenoid on a wet nitrous system is also being asked to go 100% duty cycle for several seconds straight, you might want to consider dropping that back down to 80% as well. You well know that without a rest period the electronics will build up heat not only degrading your air-fuel charge, but risking a solenoid failure as well.
just one more reason to go with a dry system.

Fortunately for us, there are sophisticated engine monitoring computers out there that will immediately warn of intake manifold damage caused from too much N2O. I saw it on your favorite movie.

 

The difference is, the fuel solenoid is DESIGNED TO STAY OPEN. The fuel injector is NOT. How this is even a comparison, I HAVE NO CLUE. They are two COMPLETELY different pieces of electronics, serve different purposes, and ARE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ALIKE. Why would you even bother trying to compare????

 

Two normally closed solenoid valves....
you explain to us exactly what makes them so different.

The obvious is that the N2O solenoid is low impedence and requires much more current generating that much more heat.
Apparently it's just a timebomb just waiting to cause a lean condition when you need it the most.

I believe your whole duty cycle scare originated many years ago with the crowd that made hot-rodding the 80's years mustang 5.0's so popular.
There is a shred of truth to it, but you have to take into account the boneheads that came up with those conclusions.
Forced induction with centrifugal blowers & FMU's were the craze.
It turns out that in fact some injectors designed to run at 45psi do have some problems when asked to go over 80% duty cycle at 90psi (courtesy of the FMU).
It didn't take long before it was the cool thing to be running larger injectors on every 5.0 out there. Popping the hood and bragging about your injector size was a right of manhood. You've got to have big injectors if you're making big power right? yep.
These are 13 & 14 second cars I'm talking about running bigger injectors because they thought they needed them. The excuses for upgrading have been many, duty cycle too high- all the way to delusions of massive power. It just became the cool thing to do.
There are definately cases where an engine needs much bigger injectors to handle the fuel flow, but those cases are less common than people want to believe.
Now this question must come up: If running the duty cycle so high on an injector is a very damanging or dangerous thing to do, then why is the PCM programmed to do it so well without any warning lights, error codes, or fuel cut?
Maybe those guys should consult with you before they come out with the next version of the code.

 

When you buy a car, they injector size is calculated (normally) so that it will never exceed and 80-85% duty cycle (depending on car, engine, etc.). OBVIOUSLY, they do not put a lot of weight to the aftermarket (although some cars come with bigger injectors to allow for a little more lead way). An example of stock vs. aftermarket, for arguments sake, is your 10 bolt. Sure a 10 bolt can last a LONG time, especially on an automatic, but move on to your t56 cars. The 10 bolt is the obvious weak link. The factory doesn't plan on you dumping the clutch from 5000+rpms on slicks. Now back to what we were talking about, the factory doesn't plan on you (most of the time, although some cars are literally tested to their limits and sold so they are basically rock solid engines) adding on 200 hp in any way, what so ever.

So the obvious answer is just as there is no warning light to tell you that you are making a lot of power and should consider buying a new rear, there is no "warning light" to tell you that your injectors are getting maxed out, and you are putting a large strain on them. After all, the factory isn't responsible for whatever you add on to it. They are only responsible for how it comes, and everything is fine with how it comes.

Now, if you believe that running an injector at a 100% duty cycle is acceptable, I am going to have to continue to reiterate...it's your car, do what you want. You're obviously getting the times you want, but when there is a failure, don't come on here crying. It's the same thing that's been told to people running 10 bolts on some low et cars........you're playing with fire, it's not "will" it break, it's "when" it willl break.

I bet if you make some more power, you will notice that it becomes much harder to dial in that a/f with those 28# injectors. You literally won't be able to command enough fuel.

 

The first 2 or 3 pages were good then it all turned bad. All injectors will eventually fail. The harder you work them the faster they will crap out. Noone knows when they will stop working maybe today maybe 15 years from now. We all know when you lean out a cylinder the piston will melt from excessive heat. Around 150 extra hp is 85-90% duty cycle depending on if you have 26 or 28 # injectors. You all agreed on these facts. I would like to know if or when Homeslices ride finally locks an injector what happens? I believe we all know the answer. 200 is a large shot. I'm at about 145 and am maxed out on a safe duty cycle. I want to go to 200 and I was debating on a different set of injectors or just letting it ride. I have made my decision.

 

Well that's just not true. The software is designed to take them to 100% and does. The software doesn't know or care how much power your engine makes, it only does calculation to determine a comparative load quantity and adjusts injector operation to match...as per the code.
There are different ways to reach 100% duty cycle in the code and different driving situations can get you there. Towing uphill can get you there. Going WOT with a very cold engine will get you there, etc...

Oh and guess what they do to your poor injectors when backflushing or testing them
for flow (where you get that cool lb/hr number) ....

yep oh NOOO! they make them go static so they are maxed out.
If you bought a matched-flow set of injectors then you probably have several that are now burned to a crisp or at least near the point of failure,
so when your engine blows from a lean condition, I bet you have grounds for a lawsuit right there because the folks that sell matched injectors abuse them before selling them to you.

yes I do get a little sarcastic when I phase in and out of ****** world.

 

The answer is that they will fail closed and the cylinder will go dead. NO there will not be a lean condition in the cylinder unless you are running a wet system that is still pumping fuel in there. There will be NO fuel to ignite with the injector closed. What is so hard about this idea??? There is no risk involved with an injector failure with a dry system.

 

Please tell me how you know it will fail closed. How do you know that it will not weaken and try to stay open but since the coil inside is weakened it will be running at 50% persay. Explain this to me. If it just totally dies than yes, there is no fuel. But coils do not usually just die. They weaken over time and lose the electro-magnetic force they once had.

 

It is a normally closed electromagnetic switch... plain and simple. It requires X amount of force to move the pintle, if the coil is no longer capable of providing that force then it fails to move the pintle and no fuel is allowed through.

Think of it as a relay... the relay never gets hung in the middle, it either closes the circuit or doesn't.

 

You guys must be really scared of the bottle is all I can think.

There would be a fairly narrow range of % the fuel delivery would have to drop to be in the "dangerous lean" range instead of dropping down to the "lean misfire" range which is not even nearly so dangerous. The chances of an injector doing this repeatedly without misfiring and causing a surge detectible by the driver must be just astronomical.
Please understand these things:
1. A few random lean firings is NOT going to damage anything. Only several consecutive lean firings will heat the chamber to the point of detonation. Then if that's not felt by the driver or detected by the knock sensors, then yes it can cause damage. This is what you're afraid of.

2. Once the level of fuel drops below a certain amount for the amount of oxygen you get a lean misfire which is very erratic and incomplete combustion noticable by power loss and surging, but not dangerous.

Homeslice's saturated injectors were keeping him at least in the mid 10's AFR, so they could afford to lose a pretty good bit of flow and still be in the safe range.

I think some of you guys have heard too many horror stories about nitrous damaging engines without knowing the whole story behind the damage.
I've seen so many dumb things done by nitrous users that caused damage that I'd never even remember them all. Funny thing is that they are usually quick to dismiss a dumb mistake on their part and start pointing fingers at something else, or they just never came to realize what the real mistake was.

I know you'll want examples so here goes.

1. Run a TPI system with the accessory belt off and bottle it... heat-soaked chambers and only 10volts to run the fuel pump + for the injector driver to run all 8 injectors = quick death.

2. Plugged gas tank vent = much less fuel volume the pump is able to move.

3. Pull up to the line at 220*F and stock heat-range spark plugs in, and hit the 150 shot.

4. Running nitrous through a catalytic converter.

5. Let off the gas first, then let off the nitrous later.

6. Go into an overdrive gear still on the bottle.

7. Spraying with a manual transmission & EFI and letting off the gas pedal to shift.

8. Racing without a sumped fuel tank when you're almost on empty.

9. Cruising around all night in traffic heat-soaking the engine, then spraying it without even knowing the bottle pressure.

10. Wire for fuel pump shoved loosely into a fuse slot under the dash.

Just to name a few.

Nitrous is by far the easiest power adder, but you should still know what you're doing and be prepared before you use it, have a problem, and then blame the nitrous, or assume it's a shortcoming in your fuel system.
Just my opinion.