Dry nozzle placement
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From: Tampa Bay
I run a 5177 customized for the Halltech TRAP CAI on my C5. The jets are 90* mounted about 6-8 inches in front of the MAF and point straight down the snout. The TRAP has a long tube between the filter and MAF and I selected it because of how I wanted to install the jets.
What I found while dyno tuning my car is how the jets were pointed made a difference. At one point, the jets were pointing a bit towards the side of the plastic tube and it went lean. I think the N2O was warmed by the contact with the plastic and the MAF didn't compensate properly.
As long as the N2O can adequately mix with the air you should be good. It's my belief that the jets should be as far away from the MAF as possible to permit a homogenous mix.
I made 90 rwhp with a set of 042s. As you can see, everyone experience is different. The best advice is to start small and work your way up.
What I found while dyno tuning my car is how the jets were pointed made a difference. At one point, the jets were pointing a bit towards the side of the plastic tube and it went lean. I think the N2O was warmed by the contact with the plastic and the MAF didn't compensate properly.
As long as the N2O can adequately mix with the air you should be good. It's my belief that the jets should be as far away from the MAF as possible to permit a homogenous mix.
I made 90 rwhp with a set of 042s. As you can see, everyone experience is different. The best advice is to start small and work your way up.
Last edited by BluMachine; Jul 27, 2005 at 02:52 PM.
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Excellent info BluMachine, thanks.
I will be testing this setup out tonight, cant wait. Need some logging with it and hopefully will get the WB hooked back up.
I will be testing this setup out tonight, cant wait. Need some logging with it and hopefully will get the WB hooked back up.
Here's the equation for figuring a single instead of duals:
(.71 x size of one dual jet) x 2 = Single nozzle jet size
So, changing from dual .032s to a single jet/nozzle would be,
(.71 x .032) x 2 = .045
Here's single to dual:
single jet size x .71 = one dual jet
So,
.045 x .71 = .0319 or .032
Robert
(.71 x size of one dual jet) x 2 = Single nozzle jet size
So, changing from dual .032s to a single jet/nozzle would be,
(.71 x .032) x 2 = .045
Here's single to dual:
single jet size x .71 = one dual jet
So,
.045 x .71 = .0319 or .032
Robert
Cat I checked 383LQ4SS single jet sizes with the math above and they are within a couple thousands of the way I do it (meaning a couple hp either way), so you should be good to go with either using the math to figure shot size or by going with known jet(s) equall this power.
Also, talking to jimmyblue from the tune section, he has given some insight into the IAT fuel erichment thing, here is the link if you haven't seen it allready:
IAT Fuel Enrichment Info
Robert
Also, talking to jimmyblue from the tune section, he has given some insight into the IAT fuel erichment thing, here is the link if you haven't seen it allready:
IAT Fuel Enrichment Info
Robert
Why wet to dry?? Just curious why you guy's are going from wet to dry? I'm going from dry to wet! I have 100hp dry setup that I spray into my airbox (works great). I'm going to 150 wet.
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I have been using wet for three years on this car. I tapped out and went from a single NX Wet kit to the NXL kit. The NXL doesnt like the larger shots I wanted to run, 220 had some issues, but this was on one of the first kits sold. Anyway, I loved the wet kit, but wet spray into dry intake always stuck in my mind. Add that to the fact my brand new never ran fuel noid going **** up on me while I am trying to qualify for a Fastest Street Car Shootout, it was enough to put me over the edge. Had I installed my larger injectors during prep I would have converted during the alloted time, but I didnt so learned a lesson that time (last Sat). Took 20 min to convert over, and I am hope to have pleasant results tonight. Using misc jets, logging and swapping, adjusting tune til I am happy. I am sure 200 will not be an issue with a dry, at least I wont be as scared. Less clutter, more mounting options, better tunability, not to mention I want to set it to add the PE and reduce the ignition when spraying, so no more tune swapping.
Charlie
Charlie
Originally Posted by CAT3
I have been using wet for three years on this car. I tapped out and went from a single NX Wet kit to the NXL kit. The NXL doesnt like the larger shots I wanted to run, 220 had some issues, but this was on one of the first kits sold. Anyway, I loved the wet kit, but wet spray into dry intake always stuck in my mind. Add that to the fact my brand new never ran fuel noid going **** up on me while I am trying to qualify for a Fastest Street Car Shootout, it was enough to put me over the edge. Had I installed my larger injectors during prep I would have converted during the alloted time, but I didnt so learned a lesson that time (last Sat). Took 20 min to convert over, and I am hope to have pleasant results tonight. Using misc jets, logging and swapping, adjusting tune til I am happy. I am sure 200 will not be an issue with a dry, at least I wont be as scared. Less clutter, more mounting options, better tunability, not to mention I want to set it to add the PE and reduce the ignition when spraying, so no more tune swapping.
Charlie
Charlie
Robert
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Robert, tonights results vcery depressing, but I know better so no worry.
BAD NEWS:
A) The Nitrous did as I feared, blew right the hell out the side of the filter mostly.
B) The 2000 PCM doesnt support PE vs IAT, so no way to trick that bitch unless I am missing something.
C) Even with the Nozzle spraying right in front of the IAT it didnt register the temp worth a damn.
GOOD NEWS:
1) Logged the two runs before the track rained out, very rare here. I was very concerned with running out of fuel with the single Walbro In-tank, and Bosch 34# (39 @ 58psi) Injectors. IPW was below 100%. I know 80% is the recommended but figure its there for fractions of a second. O2's were reporting a steady healthly rich status. Too bad the most of the nitrous escaped from the 1000psi blowing out the side of the filter (not tearing it, just blowing through it). Will have to log again once I get it sealed up with a stock style lower and lid.
2) I got the rev limiter adjust vs. shift rpm, or vice versa so I only bounced off the 2nd gear limiter once.
So, I will be looking around for a stock radiator support since I trashed mine, oops. Luckily there is a **** ant used car lot near post, I'll ask if they want to swap stock for the FIPK! I think they'll do it. Well, I appreciate all the help guys and look forward to getting the juice flowing into the engine! Dry is so much easier to dial and diagnose.
Charlie
BAD NEWS:
A) The Nitrous did as I feared, blew right the hell out the side of the filter mostly.
B) The 2000 PCM doesnt support PE vs IAT, so no way to trick that bitch unless I am missing something.
C) Even with the Nozzle spraying right in front of the IAT it didnt register the temp worth a damn.
GOOD NEWS:
1) Logged the two runs before the track rained out, very rare here. I was very concerned with running out of fuel with the single Walbro In-tank, and Bosch 34# (39 @ 58psi) Injectors. IPW was below 100%. I know 80% is the recommended but figure its there for fractions of a second. O2's were reporting a steady healthly rich status. Too bad the most of the nitrous escaped from the 1000psi blowing out the side of the filter (not tearing it, just blowing through it). Will have to log again once I get it sealed up with a stock style lower and lid.
2) I got the rev limiter adjust vs. shift rpm, or vice versa so I only bounced off the 2nd gear limiter once.
So, I will be looking around for a stock radiator support since I trashed mine, oops. Luckily there is a **** ant used car lot near post, I'll ask if they want to swap stock for the FIPK! I think they'll do it. Well, I appreciate all the help guys and look forward to getting the juice flowing into the engine! Dry is so much easier to dial and diagnose.
Charlie
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From: BFE
I run my 5177 dual stage into the FIPK, but from the front plate, straight in (about 2" from center bolt on each side)
No blowing out of filter issues, no freezing Maf issues.
On my motor a .044 jet is ~100 shot
No blowing out of filter issues, no freezing Maf issues.
On my motor a .044 jet is ~100 shot
Originally Posted by CAT3
Robert, tonights results vcery depressing, but I know better so no worry.
BAD NEWS:
A) The Nitrous did as I feared, blew right the hell out the side of the filter mostly.
B) The 2000 PCM doesnt support PE vs IAT, so no way to trick that bitch unless I am missing something.
C) Even with the Nozzle spraying right in front of the IAT it didnt register the temp worth a damn.
GOOD NEWS:
1) Logged the two runs before the track rained out, very rare here. I was very concerned with running out of fuel with the single Walbro In-tank, and Bosch 34# (39 @ 58psi) Injectors. IPW was below 100%. I know 80% is the recommended but figure its there for fractions of a second. O2's were reporting a steady healthly rich status. Too bad the most of the nitrous escaped from the 1000psi blowing out the side of the filter (not tearing it, just blowing through it). Will have to log again once I get it sealed up with a stock style lower and lid.
2) I got the rev limiter adjust vs. shift rpm, or vice versa so I only bounced off the 2nd gear limiter once.
So, I will be looking around for a stock radiator support since I trashed mine, oops. Luckily there is a **** ant used car lot near post, I'll ask if they want to swap stock for the FIPK! I think they'll do it. Well, I appreciate all the help guys and look forward to getting the juice flowing into the engine! Dry is so much easier to dial and diagnose.
Charlie
BAD NEWS:
A) The Nitrous did as I feared, blew right the hell out the side of the filter mostly.
B) The 2000 PCM doesnt support PE vs IAT, so no way to trick that bitch unless I am missing something.
C) Even with the Nozzle spraying right in front of the IAT it didnt register the temp worth a damn.
GOOD NEWS:
1) Logged the two runs before the track rained out, very rare here. I was very concerned with running out of fuel with the single Walbro In-tank, and Bosch 34# (39 @ 58psi) Injectors. IPW was below 100%. I know 80% is the recommended but figure its there for fractions of a second. O2's were reporting a steady healthly rich status. Too bad the most of the nitrous escaped from the 1000psi blowing out the side of the filter (not tearing it, just blowing through it). Will have to log again once I get it sealed up with a stock style lower and lid.
2) I got the rev limiter adjust vs. shift rpm, or vice versa so I only bounced off the 2nd gear limiter once.
So, I will be looking around for a stock radiator support since I trashed mine, oops. Luckily there is a **** ant used car lot near post, I'll ask if they want to swap stock for the FIPK! I think they'll do it. Well, I appreciate all the help guys and look forward to getting the juice flowing into the engine! Dry is so much easier to dial and diagnose.
Charlie
No support for 2000 concerning pe x iat, what a bummer. May have to just use your PE multiplier set at about 12.0:1 or what you want, both n/a and on spray. I did this with my a/f averaging 11.7:1 and still ran a 11.71 all motor and drive it on street at that ratio. It works ok because 95% of the time outside the strip we are not wot so comp is adjusting for 14.7 no matter what wot PE is set at.
IAT not registering spray may be because most is going out the lid.
Sounds like your getting it though. It allways takes some flogging with a new custom set-up. Keep us up-dated.
Robert
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Predator, I was going to go straight in like you are mentioning, BUT.....always a butt, with the cowl hood and not having the 90* fittings like the 5177 has no way to mount it as such.
I normally roll outside of PE mode as well Robert, but not sure I will keep it there. I found where the spray takes the g/cyl, so if I richen up the .76 to 12.4 then below .76 to .9x to 11.8 I should be good.
I normally roll outside of PE mode as well Robert, but not sure I will keep it there. I found where the spray takes the g/cyl, so if I richen up the .76 to 12.4 then below .76 to .9x to 11.8 I should be good.
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From: Tampa Bay
Originally Posted by CAT3
Predator, I was going to go straight in like you are mentioning, BUT.....always a butt, with the cowl hood and not having the 90* fittings like the 5177 has no way to mount it as such.
Here's the 5177 install PDF with the pics and parts listed (6),(7),(8) and (16).
5177 install
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Blu, thanks. Thats a second option. Actually I wanted to go back to a stock lower and lid for some time....hell I remember back when TSP first was taking a wait list for their new to be released lids, never got on it though. I am liking the benefit of the lower and lid combo, cleans it up more to my eyes. If not, then I'll be getting me some 5177 stuff.
I know what ya mean on the can wait thing. I am sittin around waiting for track to open so I can start dialing in my suspesion mods, so I can start hitting big spray next Wed. 
Robert
Robert
Originally Posted by CAT3
Bigger than 200? Damn man. You go Robert, you are a true inspiration!
I say we need to see Robert and Al line em up!
I say we need to see Robert and Al line em up!
Robert
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Well, I went out today. Not great results. I am stumped. This time out, I used a stock lower, with lid and a new fram filter. Not sure on make of lid, but anyway, I drilled and tapped the shark nozzle into the pass side of the neck, opposite the IAT Sensor. Shark nozzle is almost into the center of the intake tract and aimed directly at the MAF. I had two 44 jets in, figured it should have been ~175. I made two runs, both 12.4/12.5 with 115mph. NA I run 11.79 @ 113! WTF! I looked at the log and had the O2's around 990 each, with 22-24* timing. So, I went to smaller jets, 31/31. I also increased the timing to 26-28*. Made two runs, 11.8 each at 117 & 118. This time the O2's were back to the 890-920 range. Seemed to pull a lot harder. I know the track prep was ****, very bad actually, but this didnt feel like a hit that I used to get wet.
How can I tell if I am freezing the MAF? The nozzle is about 3" from the MAF. Will try to post up a pic in the morning. I am thinking it may be freezing, seeing how it went really rich on the larger jets...does this make sense?
Anyway, I just want to get this figured out. I plan on swapping out the lid and hopefully tapping some nozzles into the front or side, keep it away from the MAF and all.
How can I tell if I am freezing the MAF? The nozzle is about 3" from the MAF. Will try to post up a pic in the morning. I am thinking it may be freezing, seeing how it went really rich on the larger jets...does this make sense?
Anyway, I just want to get this figured out. I plan on swapping out the lid and hopefully tapping some nozzles into the front or side, keep it away from the MAF and all.
Yea, it sounds like placement may be part of problem. i haven't had any freezinf exp. One of the guys on here runs his nozzle 3inches away and directly at maf and no freezing. I have 4 nozzles 3inches away and all spraying no freeze, but mine are not directly aimed at maf, they have to turn with air flow and this mixes n2o/air well. did you do a baseline run? Maybe conditions/tuning or ? wasn't optimum for good runs? Sounds like your making ground though and this is often the way with a custom set-up. Post up your picture and maybe we can spot something.
Robert
Robert