Best noid to pulse with?
01-11-2006, 12:03 PM
#61
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Originally Posted by Y2K2LS1
LOL That statement reminds me of your typical old-schooler, carb, NOS cheater kit, all wired to a button on the shifter no wot/window/nothing.
I just can't see how a progressive in bigtime racing couldn't be better. You can adjust the progression curve and clutch to achieve your desired setup the same way you would mess with 5 stages and delay times for all those stages. Once you stop changing the n20 setup, how would it be inconsistent? Wouldn't you think 4-5 stages with 4-5 different tq spikes would make clutch tuning even more of a headache than a simple nitrous progression curve in which smooth tq application and cluch engagment would blend together for smoother operation?
I just can't see how a progressive in bigtime racing couldn't be better. You can adjust the progression curve and clutch to achieve your desired setup the same way you would mess with 5 stages and delay times for all those stages. Once you stop changing the n20 setup, how would it be inconsistent? Wouldn't you think 4-5 stages with 4-5 different tq spikes would make clutch tuning even more of a headache than a simple nitrous progression curve in which smooth tq application and cluch engagment would blend together for smoother operation?
01-11-2006, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by NXJeremy
Exactly my point. With EFI and a progressive controller you could match how the power is coming in to how the clutch is coming in, which would make the car faster (ideally since noone is doing this right now that I know of).
I'm no pundant, but I would have to belive that an engine management system that used feed back to control nitrous would seem to be a formidable one.
01-11-2006, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Macon
I'm no pundant, but I would have to belive that an engine management system that used feed back to control nitrous would seem to be a formidable one.
01-11-2006, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by NXJeremy
BenR - Again, I agree with you that being consistant can be very difficult. However, a progressive controller that is constantly adjusting to what the car is doing as it goes down track based on input from the engine management and other parts of the car will be more consistent than a car that has the nitrous power set on stages that are 100% on or off. And while yes, you could call the small tired racers "sportsman" I think it's crazy for someone to say that guys that are going mid 4's in the 1/8th and mid 7's in the quarter on a tire that is no bigger than a ruler have no "real" racing experience.
The simple fact of the matter is that people fear what they don't understand, and lets face it, the majority of today's really fast nitrous racers are older guys that have been playing with this stuff for a decade or more. They have always used carbs and multiple stages and so that is what they stick with. Relearning to tune with EFI and nitrous controllers can be a scary thing for someone that has never used anything but carbs and 3-5 stages. This is the technology age and I think in the near future we will see EFI and high tech nitrous controllers become common place for those that want to win. The turbo crowd has embraced technology and that is why we have drag radial cars running 7's in the 1/4 with 6 cylinders and a single turbo, and why there's an LS1 in the 6's along with quite a few other's in the 7's. It's about time that the nitrous crowd does the same. Sorry for the rant, just my opinion.
The simple fact of the matter is that people fear what they don't understand, and lets face it, the majority of today's really fast nitrous racers are older guys that have been playing with this stuff for a decade or more. They have always used carbs and multiple stages and so that is what they stick with. Relearning to tune with EFI and nitrous controllers can be a scary thing for someone that has never used anything but carbs and 3-5 stages. This is the technology age and I think in the near future we will see EFI and high tech nitrous controllers become common place for those that want to win. The turbo crowd has embraced technology and that is why we have drag radial cars running 7's in the 1/4 with 6 cylinders and a single turbo, and why there's an LS1 in the 6's along with quite a few other's in the 7's. It's about time that the nitrous crowd does the same. Sorry for the rant, just my opinion.
By the very nature of a progressive controller the only way to use it to it's full potential is to set it up with traction-control, which is illegal. Yes I know cheating is popular now that it's so easy, but until a team is using traction-control I still don't see a progressive controller being faster or more consistant than stages. Just my opinion based on my experience.
01-11-2006, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Macon
I'm no pundant, but I would have to belive that an engine management system that used feed back to control nitrous would seem to be a formidable one.
www.racepak.com
01-11-2006, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben R
And interestingly enough off the Harold Martin website...i circles the N20 control and traction control. Noting that the n20 is in stages.
Last edited by Macon; 01-11-2006 at 08:10 PM.
01-11-2006, 09:11 PM
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I remember when John Urist showed up to Bradenton last year with a MOTEC ECU on his car and some guys almost **** a twinkie. They were yelling traction control, but alas, they were wrong. No wheel-speed sensors.
People are still arguing over the MSD 7531 box. It's legal in most classes still, but I hate when people say that's traction control. Traction control is much different.
People are still arguing over the MSD 7531 box. It's legal in most classes still, but I hate when people say that's traction control. Traction control is much different.
01-12-2006, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ben R
I remember when John Urist showed up to Bradenton last year with a MOTEC ECU on his car and some guys almost **** a twinkie. They were yelling traction control, but alas, they were wrong. No wheel-speed sensors.
People are still arguing over the MSD 7531 box. It's legal in most classes still, but I hate when people say that's traction control. Traction control is much different.
People are still arguing over the MSD 7531 box. It's legal in most classes still, but I hate when people say that's traction control. Traction control is much different.
My imagination takes me into the world of using the reluctor pulses and a progressive controller and sitting down with a software guru. Too much coffee!!
01-12-2006, 09:30 AM
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From my understanding the Race Pak is simply a data logger (maybe I missed something). The engine management that Macon posted simply activates a stage and then activates another stage, etc. This will result in hp/tq spike as you go down the track. Besides, all of the engine management programs currently on the market will reduce power (read-traction control) by pulling timing and then put that timing back in as conditions permit. I'm talking about actually reducing nitrous/fuel flow to reduce hp if the car starts to lose traction. And yes, this is a form of traction control and would probably not be allowed in most, if not all, classes. However, racers want to win and usually don't care about the rules if they think they can get away with it.
I think an engine management system that could control every aspect of a nitrous system in the same ways that it controls the engine would be able to apply more power sooner into a pass and be able to increase that power without loosing traction would definately run faster than the same car using carbs and multiple stages. Unfortunately, that type of engine/nitrous management system doesn't exist right now so we'll have to wait and see.
I guess Ben and I will just have to agree to disagree since it seems like we could go on forever on this subject, lol.
I think an engine management system that could control every aspect of a nitrous system in the same ways that it controls the engine would be able to apply more power sooner into a pass and be able to increase that power without loosing traction would definately run faster than the same car using carbs and multiple stages. Unfortunately, that type of engine/nitrous management system doesn't exist right now so we'll have to wait and see.
I guess Ben and I will just have to agree to disagree since it seems like we could go on forever on this subject, lol.
Last edited by NXJeremy; 01-12-2006 at 09:38 AM.
01-12-2006, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by NXJeremy
From my understanding the Race Pak is simply a data logger (maybe I missed something). The engine management that Macon posted simply activates a stage and then activates another stage, etc. This will result in hp/tq spike as you go down the track. Besides, all of the engine management programs currently on the market will reduce power (read-traction control) by pulling timing and then put that timing back in as conditions permit. I'm talking about actually reducing nitrous/fuel flow to reduce hp if the car starts to lose traction. And yes, this is a form of traction control and would probably not be allowed in most, if not all, classes. However, racers want to win and usually don't care about the rules if they think they can get away with it.
I think an engine management system that could control every aspect of a nitrous system in the same ways that it controls the engine would be able to apply more power sooner into a pass and be able to increase that power without loosing traction would definately run faster than the same car using carbs and multiple stages. Unfortunately, that type of engine/nitrous management system doesn't exist right now so we'll have to wait and see.
I guess Ben and I will just have to agree to disagree since it seems like we could go on forever on this subject, lol.
I think an engine management system that could control every aspect of a nitrous system in the same ways that it controls the engine would be able to apply more power sooner into a pass and be able to increase that power without loosing traction would definately run faster than the same car using carbs and multiple stages. Unfortunately, that type of engine/nitrous management system doesn't exist right now so we'll have to wait and see.
I guess Ben and I will just have to agree to disagree since it seems like we could go on forever on this subject, lol.
He's also working on a very advanced form of a push system. Big flow gains have been seen on the flowbench already, and he's expecting big results out of it at the track.
Yes, Racepak is just a datalogger, but a smart racer can take the information a Racepak computer gives him and make the tuning changes necessary to find the extra ET left in the setup. Some of the guys I've been able to work with are really incredble at doing it. It's almost like a 6th sense for some of those guys. No wonder they charge so much. LOL.
Without having traction control I wouldn't spend the money to try to setup the perfect 'progressive' system. I just can't see it being consistant enough. Assuming you used it without traction control you would consntantly have to be resetting it for varying track conditions. It would be much simpler to just leave yourself some margin for error with multiple stages. But again, just my opinion based on my experiences.
01-12-2006, 10:58 AM
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That sounds pretty interesting. So is the nitrous being sprayed via an injector? Also, is he trying to run the engine on nitrous and fuel alone without any ambient air being brought into the engine (very long discussion on this in another thread), or is he just looking for a way to better control the added hp of the nitrous system?
01-12-2006, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ben R
There's actually a guy I know working on doing nitrous/fuel injection through fuel injectors. It works just like sequential fuel injection, but can go one step further. You give the computer your cam timing specs and the injector fires when the valve will be open. There will be a car testing this system this year. It's also different from any other system in that there are no solenoids or nozzles or anything else like that. Instead of having a nitrous 'bottle' hell have a nitrous 'tank'. It should be some pretty neat stuff.
01-12-2006, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by NXJeremy
That sounds pretty interesting. So is the nitrous being sprayed via an injector? Also, is he trying to run the engine on nitrous and fuel alone without any ambient air being brought into the engine (very long discussion on this in another thread), or is he just looking for a way to better control the added hp of the nitrous system?
01-12-2006, 04:04 PM
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Do you happen to know what injector he's using for the nitrous, or where he got them? The reason I'm asking is because we haven't found an injector that can handle the pressure that nitrous operates at. Closest was around 600psi, which is too low for nitrous use.
01-12-2006, 04:50 PM
#75
It's been stated a couple times on the spikes you'll get with multi stages. well yes and no. With a multi stage dry I have a torque curve that is as smooth as any progressive (actually pretty linear all the way, and comes on smooth). you just have to tune it in. Meaning selecting additional stage to come on at correct time/rpm, and with a dry you can tune how hard and fast it comes on by simply lenghting or shortening the the line from noid to nozzle. I will post my 3 stage dry dyno run when I get a chance. But so far no spikes, just nice smooth transition of power. There must be a reason that the Pro guys run multi stage dry, and that reason is it works, and is in fact very tunable. 
Robert
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01-12-2006, 05:01 PM
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Not all the pro guys run mult. stage dry systems. If I remember correctly Jenksins uses wet and dry. Also, the very large majority (from what I've seen) of the small tired nitrous racers use wet systems (I keep referring to the small tired racers because that is what I tend to focus on and enjoy since in my opinion it takes much more tuning ability to get a fast car down track with 10.5-12.0 inches of tire). I'll say it again, people in general tend to shy away from changing to something they don't understand, and that is why mult. stages are still so widely used in professional drag racing (that and rules). They've used this type of setup for so long it's no surprise at all that they've figured out how to go fast with it.
It's time to step out of the box and into the technology....and go faster. On a side note, I do agree that by using some of the technology that is availible (and about to be availible) that using a dry system could be better than using a wet system given the right software to control it.
It's time to step out of the box and into the technology....and go faster. On a side note, I do agree that by using some of the technology that is availible (and about to be availible) that using a dry system could be better than using a wet system given the right software to control it.
01-12-2006, 05:11 PM
#78
Ok double teamers. First, I never said all Pro guys run staged dry, and I run in Pro Sportsman, but realise these guys are in the real Pro classes. Just because I post some of my early numbers and dynos, does not mean I haven't done any big hits. Ok, I am not doing 300hp per stage, however, I'll bet you (Ricky) one of your new FJO's that the same basic type tuning principal is being had by us little 200/300 (yes mine is being set-up for a total of 300?) total shot multi stage guys and the big dogs? 10.5 Outlaw guys, tuning secrets?
Robert
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01-12-2006, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert56
It's been stated a couple times on the spikes you'll get with multi stages. well yes and no. With a multi stage dry I have a torque curve that is as smooth as any progressive (actually pretty linear all the way, and comes on smooth). you just have to tune it in. Meaning selecting additional stage to come on at correct time/rpm, and with a dry you can tune how hard and fast it comes on by simply lenghting or shortening the the line from noid to nozzle. I will post my 3 stage dry dyno run when I get a chance. But so far no spikes, just nice smooth transition of power. There must be a reason that the Pro guys run multi stage dry, and that reason is it works, and is in fact very tunable.
Robert
Robert
This is a picture of a kit the guys over at Speedtech did. That's a 4-Stage Dry manifold. I would assume we can expect to see that setup on their Pro-Street car this season. The guys at Speedtech are bad dudes!!!
01-12-2006, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NXJeremy
Do you happen to know what injector he's using for the nitrous, or where he got them? The reason I'm asking is because we haven't found an injector that can handle the pressure that nitrous operates at. Closest was around 600psi, which is too low for nitrous use.