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Old 09-17-2006, 10:15 PM
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Default ND's 'Ultimate PRO Dry' Dyno results

I have been working on a new dry kit which the title state's the name. This kit is based upon the NX Lightning Stage 6 noids and CF ss dry nozzles. At this time no pics, but they will be coming soon. Now the nuts and bolts of it all. First we need to lay the ground work. This testing is done on an absolutely bone stock long block ls6 (mine), not even headers. The fuel system is upgraded (will list mods later in thread) and a Vararam CAI along with tuning are the only mods. This has been put into a dual stage configuration. 1st stage is/was jetted at 170rwhp and 2nd stage was/is jetted for 65rwhp (3rd stage wet was not used in this test, as that is for later) . We had a dyno day yesterday with a couple car clubs involved so there was many witnesses. We made 3 pulls and all were to 6500rpm redline. There was absolutely no lean spike, none, nodda, zilch, zero. So, that is good news to all. The first pull was just a tester and came on way late, but a/f was safe and no knock retard, no dropping fuel pressure and no lean spikes. So I set ws for 3200rpm on and 6400rpm off on stg 1, then stg 2 was set at 4400rpm on and same rpm off. Second pull was 547rwhp and 607 torque, actual. This pull was running pretty rich below 10 in a small area. So we leaned it out a bit and made a last pull for the day 550rwhp and 636 torque. Now there was still a bunch of power left on the table. When the 2nd stg comes on it was still all in the 10 to 10.8 area after 4400rpm. Well, this is good news as my base hp is about 340rwhp and we had a gain of 210rwhp on a jetted 235rwhp hit, so there is more (will be going safely for 600rwhp soon).

Just a note here, a buddy's C5 cam and head full bolt on car with a n/a hp of 404rwhp running a competitor's plate system jetted at 200rwhp fell short of our torque mark by about 58 points. What is really remarkable, is that my torque is based on the 1st stg only of 170rwhp jetting, the second was set way latter and helped pick the dropping torque back up. Now who wants to still state that dry hits are lesser than wet hits? I would be willing to put this kit up against any wet kit, win/loose or draw.

Ok here is my set-up/mods for this day:
104 Trick unleaded, (about 90%)
TR6 gapped at .035
Timing at 24* (none pulled ever)
Racetronics (Walbro) fuel pump
SVO 42lb injectors (used from a Ford lightning)
'97/98 vette return and regulator at the rails
Custom tuning by myself that anyone can do (HP Tuner and LM1 WB)
Jetted for 235rwhp in dual stage running 4-nozzles (each stg dual nozzle)

Sorry about the rambling post, but I am really excited about this kit. A dry kit that doesn't run lean and produces power/torque that's on par or better than any wet kit. On top of that it's got the inherint safety that only a dry hit can supply. Nay sayer's input welcome.

Here is the dyno run from the third pull. I have a better printout of a/f if anyone wants to see it (states a/f ratio at each rpm by the 100's). Just look at when the nitrous comes on at 3200rpm, it starts going richer instantly. ( this run was all the way to 6500rpm but the dyno messed up so it only printed to 5400rpm)

Edit: New time in my sig, and there certainly is more left on the table.

Robert

Last edited by Robert56@NitrousDirect; 10-01-2006 at 12:03 AM. Reason: added new time
Old 09-17-2006, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert56@NitrousDirect
I have been working on a new dry kit which the title state's the name. This kit is based upon the NX Lightning Stage 6 noids and CF ss dry nozzles. At this time no pics, but they will be coming soon. Now the nuts and bolts of it all. First we need to lay the ground work. This testing is done on an absolutely bone stock long block ls6 (mine), not even headers. The fuel system is upgraded (will list mods later in thread) and a Vararam CAI along with tuning are the only mods. This has been put into a dual stage configuration. 1st stage is/was jetted at 170rwhp and 2nd stage was/is jetted for 65rwhp (3rd stage wet was not used in this test, as that is for later) . We had a dyno day yesterday with a couple car clubs involved so there was many witnesses. We made 3 pulls and all were to 6500rpm redline. There was absolutely no lean spike, none, nodda, zilch, zero. So, that is good news to all. The first pull was just a tester and came on way late, but a/f was safe and no knock retard, no dropping fuel pressure and no lean spikes. So I set ws for 3200rpm on and 6400rpm off on stg 1, then stg 2 was set at 4400rpm on and same rpm off. Second pull was 547rwhp and 607 torque, actual. This pull was running pretty rich below 10 in a small area. So we leaned it out a bit and made a last pull for the day 550rwhp and 636 torque. Now there was still a bunch of power left on the table. When the 2nd stg comes on it was still all in the 10 to 10.8 area after 4400rpm. Well, this is good news as my base hp is about 340rwhp and we had a gain of 210rwhp on a jetted 235rwhp hit, so there is more (will be going safely for 600rwhp soon).

Just a note here, a buddy's C5 cam and head full bolt on car with a n/a hp of 404rwhp running a competitor's plate system jetted at 200rwhp fell short of our torque mark by about 58 points. What is really remarkable, is that my torque is based on the 1st stg only of 170rwhp jetting, the second was set way latter and helped pick the dropping torque back up. Now who wants to still state that dry hits are lesser than wet hits? I would be willing to put this kit up against any wet kit, win/loose or draw.

Ok here is my set-up/mods for this day:
104 Trick unleaded, (about 90%)
TR6 gapped at .035
Timing at 24* (none pulled ever)
Racetronics (Walbro) fuel pump
SVO 42lb injectors (used from a Ford lightning)
'97/98 vette return and regulator at the rails
Custom tuning by myself that anyone can do (HP Tuner and LM1 WB)
Jetted for 235rwhp in dual stage running 4-nozzles (each stg dual nozzle)

Sorry about the rambling post, but I am really excited about this kit. A dry kit that doesn't run lean and produces power/torque that's on par or better than any wet kit. On top of that it's got the inherint safety that only a dry hit can supply. Nay sayer's input welcome.

Here is the dyno run from the third pull. I have a better printout of a/f if anyone wants to see it (states a/f ratio at each rpm by the 100's). Just look at when the nitrous comes on at 3200rpm, it starts going richer instantly. ( this run was all the way to 6500rpm but the dyno messed up so it only printed to 5400rpm)

Robert
Robert looks great.. Good job..
However it is not practical to compare two different cars.. TNo two cars are the same.. Different combinations, air fuel timming etc will determain different out comes.

Everyone knows that you can not compare a system on two different cars..

Now if you want a truthful comparison put the plate on your car jetted for the same. Make sure timming and airfuel are the same and go from there..
Dave
Old 09-17-2006, 10:24 PM
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How come your airfuel looks like a roller coster?
Old 09-17-2006, 10:27 PM
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i would like to know how much of a shot could this system handle ! as in how much horse power wise?
Old 09-17-2006, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
Robert looks great.. Good job..
However it is not practical to compare two different cars.. TNo two cars are the same.. Different combinations, air fuel timming etc will determain different out comes.

Everyone knows that you can not compare a system on two different cars..

Now if you want a truthful comparison put the plate on your car jetted for the same. Make sure timming and airfuel are the same and go from there..
Dave
Thanks Dave, that means a lot coming from you. Oh I know and agree, it wasn't an apples to apples comparison, but rather a point to be made that dry is just as capable as wet in torque and hp. The plate car needs some additional tuning and we are going to be working on it. Actually, Drilled out one of his fuel jets and he produced the best pull of the day. He was running way lean (needs return and reg at rails now as it still goes way lean upon activation).
We just didn't have the time or pulls to get it completely worked out as to many were waiting.

The graph is kinda wavy cause I was last on dyno for the day and time was scarce, but it will be stable for my race on the 23rd. Now with that said, it still was fine and safe, just not quite up to optimum potential and I realize this, but we will get it.
Robert
Old 09-17-2006, 10:49 PM
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Cool,
Good answer..

I will agree that A dry kit has the capabilities of making the same HP and close to or if not the same Torque as a wet kit..

However there is more computer tunning involved that is not involved with a wet system so it does not fit everyones needs. Also on some of the LS2 applications there are reports of the pcm and maff not likeing or cooperating with the dry set ups as well on larger shots over 125-150.

So you will see both systems have there perks and none perks.

As for testing the plate and the dry kit in comparison put them on the same car with everything else the same. Both broke in stages or all at one time... Then you will have a comparison to go off of. ( I would be interested in the results as long as they are performed correctly..
There are two many factors between different cars to make a comparison.

With all a side though you have done a good job putting your system together.. I can not help but wonder how long it holds though. That is what tells all..
Better look out that third stage may be the straw that broke the cammels back.lol

Dave
Old 09-17-2006, 10:52 PM
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To top off the kit Robert you should add the NX Dry Nozzles and call it a Super Ultimate Pro Dry Kit The NX Dry nozzles are 90 degree and huge, they are 1/8 NPT not 1/16 NPT and stick out further into the airstream.

Throw in a Trick Window Switch and you can call it the Super Duper Ultimate Pro Dry

Great Numbers Robert! Adding 42's on mine in October and playing with EFI Live.

Cheers
Beer
Old 09-17-2006, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Pewter53
i would like to know how much of a shot could this system handle ! as in how much horse power wise?
With the -4an line it's limited to about 400hp in ideal conditions. If ya need or want bigger, then a supply line of -6an would be needed. The lines leaving the noids are -4an then split into dual -3an lines, so they can support what you want to throw at your motor. Now remember, this is the dual stage set up with dual noids, and we have not determined if a single stg and dual stg kit will be offered.
Robert
Old 09-17-2006, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Beer99C5
To top off the kit Robert you should add the NX Dry Nozzles and call it a Super Ultimate Pro Dry Kit The NX Dry nozzles are 90 degree and huge, they are 1/8 NPT not 1/16 NPT and stick out further into the airstream.

Throw in a Trick Window Switch and you can call it the Super Duper Ultimate Pro Dry

Great Numbers Robert! Adding 42's on mine in October and playing with EFI Live.

Cheers
Beer
That's allways a considerration, but I have had real good luck with the CF ss nozzles. They are also modified, a bit, but that's a . It's like, why fix what is not broken?
Yes, the FJO Trick ws is being considered as a compliment of the dual stg kit.
How about the "Hugely Large Super Duper Ultimate Pro Dry"?
Robert
Old 09-17-2006, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
Cool,
Good answer..

I will agree that A dry kit has the capabilities of making the same HP and close to or if not the same Torque as a wet kit..

However there is more computer tunning involved that is not involved with a wet system so it does not fit everyones needs. Also on some of the LS2 applications there are reports of the pcm and maff not likeing or cooperating with the dry set ups as well on larger shots over 125-150.

So you will see both systems have there perks and none perks.

As for testing the plate and the dry kit in comparison put them on the same car with everything else the same. Both broke in stages or all at one time... Then you will have a comparison to go off of. ( I would be interested in the results as long as they are performed correctly..
There are two many factors between different cars to make a comparison.

With all a side though you have done a good job putting your system together.. I can not help but wonder how long it holds though. That is what tells all..
Better look out that third stage may be the straw that broke the cammels back.lol

Dave
Actually, imo, there really isn't much more tuning for a dry over a wet going large except the injectors and that is a cake walk these days. Even the wet kits (as we all rec) should be dyno tuned. This is how we found the super lean condition on the wet hit on the c5 (13.1 to 13.5 through entire run and to early shut down) at 200hp level. This was after a pro tune job?
This brings up the waviness in my dyno sheet again. Normally, the a/f can be adjusted through tuning of the nozzle, but on this day because of time restraints, I used another method in the pcm and it wasn't perfect but worked. So in conclusion, when going bigger, we all need the hit tuned for safety and longevity.
As for mine lasting on the stock low end, well I will be running it all day at this level on the 23rd, and I don't run my car easy, ever, so we will see. But, I have been working towards this point at a snails pace, so I am pretty confident things will be fine. Now with that said, the other 200 sprayed passes have certainly put some wear and tear on my combo, so...
Robert
Old 09-17-2006, 11:28 PM
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What did you change in the pcm to change the dry a/f ratio?
Old 09-17-2006, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ujslost2
What did you change in the pcm to change the dry a/f ratio?
The fuel multiplier in the WOT power enrichment. This is the quickest way, but not the ideal way. There are better ways to do it in the pcm if you go pcm route rather than nozzle method.
For those reading along, you can have a two in one tune in the pcm for fuel and pulling timing, one that only comes into effect when spraying and it does this automatically. I will do a dry tuning thread in the near future.
Robert
Old 09-18-2006, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Robert56@NitrousDirect
Actually, imo, there really isn't much more tuning for a dry over a wet going large except the injectors and that is a cake walk these days. Even the wet kits (as we all rec) should be dyno tuned. This is how we found the super lean condition on the wet hit on the c5 (13.1 to 13.5 through entire run and to early shut down) at 200hp level. This was after a pro tune job?
This brings up the waviness in my dyno sheet again. Normally, the a/f can be adjusted through tuning of the nozzle, but on this day because of time restraints, I used another method in the pcm and it wasn't perfect but worked. So in conclusion, when going bigger, we all need the hit tuned for safety and longevity.
As for mine lasting on the stock low end, well I will be running it all day at this level on the 23rd, and I don't run my car easy, ever, so we will see. But, I have been working towards this point at a snails pace, so I am pretty confident things will be fine. Now with that said, the other 200 sprayed passes have certainly put some wear and tear on my combo, so...
Robert
You are correct we suggest dyno tunning for all nitrous applications. Unless you know how to read spark plugs or have a wideband on the car. You always need to know where your tune up is.

As far as tunning. ON the average car requiring a 150shot and they do not have a custom tune they can get away with just changing the fuel jet to adjust airfuel. The only time computer tunning may be needed is to adjust timming.. You will need to pull timming on larger shots or if you have a tune advanceing the timming. To fix this you can get a timming tuner cheaper than paying someone for retunning the car.

The dry will require computer tunning to adjust airfuel. This is not a big deal for everyone however some people do not have the ability to do this. Pluss adding the cost of injectors.

Both will be dependent on a fuel pump to be able to supply the needed fuel.

Dave
Old 09-18-2006, 09:43 AM
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So on a 200+ shot your total timing is 24 deg? Right now Im at 26 deg and running a 100 shot, wanting to go to a 125 but dont want to get gready. My car is a hc full bolton 440rwhp m6 car 11.2 to 1 comp. Do you think Im ok to do this?
Old 09-18-2006, 02:27 PM
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Nice numbers Robert. On the F-Bodies we usually don't do a reg & return until around 600 @ the wheels (although they help tremendously with maintaining a constant FP), this was on your vette right?

Matt
Old 09-18-2006, 05:04 PM
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Robert can you post pics and part #s for regulator/ return and would Vete stuff work on a F body your do you have parts at the shop
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Old 09-18-2006, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet
You are correct we suggest dyno tunning for all nitrous applications. Unless you know how to read spark plugs or have a wideband on the car. You always need to know where your tune up is.

As far as tunning. ON the average car requiring a 150shot and they do not have a custom tune they can get away with just changing the fuel jet to adjust airfuel. The only time computer tunning may be needed is to adjust timming.. You will need to pull timming on larger shots or if you have a tune advanceing the timming. To fix this you can get a timming tuner cheaper than paying someone for retunning the car.
Yes that's a benifit of a wet to about 150hp, just jet and go, but for me the risks compared to dry well you know my story.

The dry will require computer tunning to adjust airfuel. This is not a big deal for everyone however some people do not have the ability to do this. Pluss adding the cost of injectors.
This was my point above. We are proving that you can in fact tune your a/f on a dry hit without going into the computer. Yes if you want to go bigger dry hits then injectors and retune are in order. Now the price of injectors with the dry kit will even out basically concerning cost. then don't forget the inherent safety of the dry. So the end user does have some things to consider. while your in the tune for the injectors, you can set it up to pull timing when spraying only and save the cost of a timing tuner. You'll be wanting to go into tune anyway for things like rpm limiter, fans and mucho other little stuff when going bigger, so saying it's an added expensense is relative.
Both will be dependent on a fuel pump to be able to supply the needed fuel.
Yep, and if wanting the optimum performance from the fuel system, a reg and return at the rails.

Dave
Robert
Old 09-19-2006, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by fotoboy
So on a 200+ shot your total timing is 24 deg? Right now Im at 26 deg and running a 100 shot, wanting to go to a 125 but dont want to get gready. My car is a hc full bolton 440rwhp m6 car 11.2 to 1 comp. Do you think Im ok to do this?
Yes, on a 235rwhp shot my timing was/is 24* total. If it where mine, I would go for it. But I would log for kr to be certain as every car is different. Also some race gas would be a good safety item/addition.
Robert
Old 09-19-2006, 09:58 PM
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Pics.

Old 09-20-2006, 12:02 AM
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Do you really consider 12.5:1 and 24 degrees timing safe for a 240 shot and a stock motor? Honsetly Im wayyy more conservative tuning nitrous cars than that

Last edited by GrannySShifting; 09-20-2006 at 02:30 PM.


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