V6 Bird

iTrader: (15)

ive shared enough on this subject. Search for my posts Charlie. Its out there.

V6 Bird

iTrader: (15)

BP7EFs are 7's...
R5671A-8's,9's, 10's, or 11's

i dont have the part number off hand for the non gasket seat as I always run the gasket seat setups in the tapered holes....

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Ok, first your not listening/reading. The PTP burn up cause they are out in the middle of the chamber, whereas, a NTPT is not, so it will not heat to a glowing time bomb and the resulting blow torch effect will not happen. Think about it. If you don't have a blow torch out in the middle of the chamber the pre ignition can't happen from that source and melt your plug into pieces that may or may not do damage. Your scenerio probably would have resulted in nothing happening, then again don't know the whole story. Tune it correct and run the correct plugs and issues eliminated. My n/a tune is my nitrous tune. Now with that said, yes we all mostly run the tr6, but I am thinking it's more of a band wagon effect rather than using the best plug for the application, at least for shots 150 and bigger. Your post just backs up the points that some of are trying to make, the tr6 can come apart, period. So a turd is a turd, and time for some to think about another plug? Bring it on.
Robert

V6 Bird

iTrader: (15)

Glad you guys are starting to catch on..

Cylinder pressures, build heat. A tip in the chamber will start to glow under high pressures and it doesnt transfer heat out of the chamber as well as a colder, tighter gapped, non projected tip...Pre-ignition can/will occur when not watched closely and a missing tip gets sent out the exhaust...

Sometimes it gets caught in between the valve and seat causing bent valves, sometimes it can pitt a piston, sometimes even melt or break the piston and or ringlands. You want the chamber as cool as possible and a spark plug that is "cold" non-projected does this by being a more effective heat changer. That is the duty of a spark plug. Not to spark. Exchange heat efficiently. The cooler the chamber can be the more dense an air/fuel charge can be, resulting in more net power. Change to a colder plug when on bottle and power will almost always rise across the board.

Frans96SS

iTrader: (15)

i have always used the AC Delco R42LTS in my lt1..... i ran a 200 shot on pump gas with no problem.... the tr6's were fouling out too fast...

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

Thats too cold for me at least, Id rather stay with the 6 heat range.

Nick@HSW

iTrader: (4)

what I think a few people are failing to see here is that this is not godragracing.com where its strictly track cars. If you had to select the correct heat range in a non-projected tip street car, I wish you the best of luck and hope your knuckles heal early. Thats the simple truth and I know people are going to come back and say I've done it for x years. At that point I would suggest that a professional examine your plugs because I gaurantee you're running too hot of a plug. The simple fact is that non projected plugs are not nearly as efficient as a projected tip and simply won't last long on the street.

I will go on the record and state that projected tip plugs are 100% fine to use on the street when spraying resonable sized shots. AS LONG AS THE CORRECT HEAT RANGE IS USED FOR APPLICATION!! I don't think that most people understand that its not the center electrode's job to transfer heat out. Physical heat transfer out to the reach, to the insulator and to the head is only about 20% of the cooling. Most of the cooling on a spark plug is via incoming air. The problem lies with the ground strap and the plugs ability to disipate (heat range, not electrode material) heat. If your plug becomes a literal torch in the head, you have numerous other issues at hand other than a projected tip and that same problem would exist whether or not its a projected tip or non-projected tip. Heat range selection is the biggest key!

If anybody is interested in going to a non-projected tip plug, please do so with one that has a resistor. Non-resistored plugs can wreek havok on ignition and computer controlled systems. I have a few part numbers if anybody is interested but please keep in mind that these plugs do fowl out very quickly and are not recommended if you drive your car N/A on the street. There are even a few NGK iridium race plugs that are resisted and non-projected for those interested as well but the lowest heat range is an 8.

Nick@HSW

iTrader: (4)

Please tell me that you're not trying to pass these plugs off as non-projected tips?

The P in your first part number translates to Projected Inulator Type
The EF aslo translates to Tapered Seat 17.5mm reach, so that plug will be a taper seat not gasketed.

The A firing end on your second part number translates to a projected tip as well. In order to move to a true non-projected tip on an NGK racing plug the firing end would have to be a C D or G. B is a semi-projected tip which might be a good option.

Secondly running a gasket'd plug in a tapered hole is not the ideal situation

Not trying to goof on you or anything, just trying to keep the tech info straight.

Nick@HSW

iTrader: (4)

Please also note that neither of those plugs you listed are resist'd plugs either. The first number would require a R after BP and the racing series plug is a completely different number. Sorry forgot in my first post.

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

I would try out a different plug for the track maybe, but for a long time now my TR6's have done well and I drive my car all the time on the street. I dont really want to deal with fouling plugs all the time.

V6 Bird

iTrader: (15)

Nothing is ever too cold when you tune for the plugs.

I drove a cam only LS1, with 200 on bottle around daily on NGk 8's. Swapped to 9's at the track for some passes and swapped back to 8's to drive home.

V6 Bird

iTrader: (15)

Ive had that part number on my sticky note for awhile. Dont quote me on that one..but the gasket on a tapered seat is nothing wrong there...You cant be hercules on that **** though.lol

The last box of Bp7...'s I saw, were non projected. I may have the wrong part number but if my vision serves me correctly they were indeed the tappered seat style.

now on the other hand, the 7's could also be had as a R5671A-7 as well. I need to dig up that box and a plug for the other 7 part number. enlighten me on the difference of resistor and non-resistor..thats one ive never really looked at when choosing plugs since ive used the R5671A's in every extreme setup ive worked with.

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

Tune for plugs?? I am not gonna run the engine hotter or leaner just to use a colder plug. Maybe if I up my nitrous shot then I will contemplate something like that.

V6 Bird

iTrader: (15)

its not necessarily running leaning or hotter...when i say leaner im not saying 14:1..lol

But things can always be better and a hot plug will not show it. install the colder plugs, do a little VE trimming and getting the tune more spot on and you will see a difference. Not just in peak power, but all over. ive witnessed this a few times now with customers car ive worked with.

Take for instance our favorite thing to talk about on here...dyno numbers.

You make 3 pulls at a dyno day with almost every car losing power on the 3rd pull. heat soaked tr6s ftw!!!

brad8266

iTrader: (23)

I ran 6 dyno pulls once and made the same power each time. Done 3 pull back to back many times with no power loss


When you say heat soked you do mean while spraying right?

V6 Bird

iTrader: (15)

nope.

rev to the moon in 4th gear. let the dyno slow, back to 3rpm in 4th hit it again, do it one more time. Alot of times the last pull falls short of the first two.

CAT3

iTrader: (9)

V6 Bird, I understand where your coming from, for a RACING APPLICATION I totally agree, non projected. For a STREET CAR the TR6 is good, as has been stated the NPT plugs dont like to idle all that well....tuning? maybe.
In the end, I could give two ***** less. I've ran TR6, the R56...7, 8's and 9, all on the street with no idling "too cold" issues or anything. I've run them from 50-220 shots and no issues (minus the one major **** up on the tuning I was jacking up). Do I think if I had NPT Plugs in they wouldn't have melted? No. I am sure they would have, but until someone wants to experiment with melting both under the same conditions WE are ALL speculating, period. Again, thats a street strip application. To those wanting to know, go try both plugs and use what your comfortable with, and what works for YOU.

Charlie

CAT3

iTrader: (9)

WTF? Holy crap Robert, tune your reading comprehension in please. I burnt my plugs up on a 200+ shot, that was running with a tune of 13.1:1 AFR, 11.5:1 CR, and over 26* of timing and gapped at .040", (sorry can't recall the specific condition, but it was stupid!) the plugs didnt melt cause they were projected, they melted from the conditions they were subjected from the environment, timing, cyl pressure etc... And yes, I do believe that one of two things would have happened if I had NPTP in:
1. They would have melted also. You've seen the pics, maybe they wouldn't burn as bad, but they'd have burnt OR

2. If the plugs had lived, then something else would have melted.

Can you disprove this? NO. Can I prove this? NO.

Preignition can happen from ANY hot spot, excess carbon is also a good one. Oil sucked into the shitty LS1 Intake system can also assist in PI. Come on Robert you know better than to think all PI is from PTP's dont you? Do I think the plugs lended a hand? YES.


Now that you know the whole deal maybe we'll sleep better tonight

My post pointed out issues with the PTP's, sure, and some with tuning....you can decide which is what you want to read. I can say I haven't seen any plugs burn up when applied in the correct manner, good tune, correct heat range, correct gap, etc.. Does it happen? I am thinking yes, just like I think bears **** in the woods even though I'm not there to see it

So the turd in this case, is calling a plug bad when its used outside of its application range? No. Show me examples of TR6 that burned up under the correct conditions and then I'll call it a turd!

Bad points I've read from other posts in here on NPTP. Idle is not so good. This means the poor fuel economy and possible drivability issues...say it aint so.

Bottom line, I will stick with running the POS TR6 plugs, and recommending them to others needing a smaller shot (<=150hp) and street strip application. Why, because WE, you, I and others, have proven they work without issue when used correctly. Could there be some benefit of running a NPTP? I honestly cant say yes, but I cant say no.

Enjoy the read.

Charlie

CAT3

iTrader: (9)

P.s. Not trying to be personal, just grumpy from "flight school" which is kicking my mental ***....and I haven't even made it to the FAA Ground School portion yet *UGH*

V6 Bird

iTrader: (15)

I dont know about you...but im not speculating. Im going by what ALL of our local engine builders for all types or racing suggested to me and everytime ive met a different one, they all say the same thing.

Street/strip whatever, if you paid money for it to be built they urged for me to use the good plugs. Not some economical plug that "gets good gas mileage etc and just happens to work ok because everyone on LS1 tech is using them." Thats just ignorance. Its not if, its when the motor etc will let go.

These guys dyno test every engine they use. Im sure theyve seen some plugs burnt over their years. So I take their word and what little explanation they gave to me. And when I draw conclusions from it, it all makes sense because ive had a tr6 tip blow off and lodge between a valve and a seat and the a/f at 11.8 on 200