Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

They work great. Its a wet system....

Ray@Nitrous Outlet

I have been running the MAF kit for 4-5 years....and love it

stealth71

iTrader: (15)

Oh. My bad.

Matt@HSW

iTrader: (14)

I haven’t twisted any of your words; they are all quoted from your posts above.

Now I am going to interpret this as:

So you are now saying it all comes down to nozzle location. If we run your Halo kit and A/F is not ideal (i.e.: lean), then go ahead and do a PCM tune. Wouldn't you say that is poor nozzle placement then?

Matt

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

If nozzle placement is fine and the AF ratio is right where you want it there would be no reason for a tune...unless you wanted to pull timing through the PCM

Nozzle placement is definately a key factor. I dont think anyone is suggesting that you slap in a nozzle anywhere and hand it over to a tuner to "fix".


Thats exactly what I am saying and that exactly what I have been doing on all my setups that were dry as well as every other semi elaborate dry kit I have installed. The one I will do this time will be a copy of the original since it was by far the most reliable setup I have ever had.

If nozzle placement is correct and you are happy with all parameters there is no reason to do that.
However...nitrous is so rundementary in the way it affects Af ratio and timing IMO many people who run dry setups..especially those looking for maximum performance may be leaving alot on the table. It all depends on how far out of optimal parameters thier Af and timing are. Too many times I see dry shots that underperform due to various reasons. And as you point out there are several ways to fix the issue. Obviously if you are 13 to 1 or greater IMO you have to start with nozzle position or flow characteristics of the nitrous over the MAF before moving on.

BUT....if you are running say...a 200 shot dry and are ending up between 9.0 and 12.0AF and are tired of hacking up your air lid or intake elbow to try to find a spot that will get the target Af you want because nothing seems to be working (which is semi common IMO) then tuning of this nature certainly is a good option. It has several advantages...including advantages over using the IAT method.

#1) As far as I know using the IAT method will get you control of one stage. if you have two you will have to rely on the MAf again for AF of the second stage. This is because the IAT basically become an on/off input into the PCM for enrichement. You could do it by rpm to add more fuel for the second stage and that will work but you then MUSt run two stages or youll be rich if you only run 1.
If you use MAF tuning and get it all set up right. You can flip the switch for stage 1 or both 1 and 2 and the MAf will sense both and adjust AF accordingly. This was the best feature I liked on my old setup. I had seperate switches and could run a 125 first stage and get an Af ratio of 11.8 to 1 or so with about 3 degrees of timing. If I elected to use the second stage the second stage would kick on and go from 11.8 and 3 degrees of timing to 11.4 with another 3 degrees of timing pulled. The MAF had control of this since it is a linear measuring device instead of an on/off sensor.

2) using the IAT method you then become reliant on bottle pressure for AF ratio much like a wet kit. if your bottle pressure is high then you will be lean. if your bottle pressure is low you will be rich.
Using the MAf tuning method it makes no difference what your bottle pressure is. What your timing will be and what your AF ratio will be will all be dependant on what yu have programmed into the PCM dependant on how much extra MASS the MAF is seeing. IN the dual stage scenario above if I had 1200 psi on the 125 shotfirst stage and it ended up flowing a 175 shot worth of juice the MAF will sense that and it may be enough to kick it over into the 6 degrees total timing pulled and the 11.4 Af ratio.

As i said before. On my old setup I used to have switches for stage 1 and stage 2 and then a heater switch or nitrogen push valve. I would use all three (which all changed the shot size) as as methods to change shot size as needed on the street or the track. Single stage 125 @ 900 psi...single stage at 1150 psi...dual sage at 900 psi...dual stage at 1150 psi etc etc. The MAF tune soaked it all up like a champ and ensured I was safe at all times. All I worried about was the shot size and to be sure I didnt exceed approx 325 total. The safety was in the ability of the MAF to see this and the tune we had to compensate correctly...every time.

So this is why I am very fond of this type of setup. Its a little more fine tuning up front...but IMO the dividends are great.

Now again...I dont want the avg guy thats going out and getting your single nozzle setup and spraying a 125 shot dry and has 11.0 to 12.5 af ratio to think hes gonna NEED all this tuning. Obviously thats not that case.

But if someone is out there and isnt quite happy with thier Af ratio and timing and either cant aim the nozzle better, doesnt want to put holes in the intake elbow by trial an error or wants a bit more finer control...this very well may be an option.

Again...the Af ratio must intially be in a moderate range to begin with before you could use the MAF setup. The IAT method if its available may be a better route. Especially if your running a smaller shot with a single stage.


Now as far as nozzle or halo and placement..I have installed quite a few of both. I have seen HALO's rich..ive seen them lean..ive seen them perfect. Nozzle setups...I have seen exactly the same.... many lean many rich and everywhere in between.

Both have thier advantages. IMO the nozzle is more likley to be lean intially because end users are putting them in all sorts of location and thier cars have all sorts of configurations. But if its lean it would be the easiest to relocate or twist in an attempt to get Af ration more inline. If you have a moderate understanding of mechanics this should not be an issue for the end user.

The HALO IMO has a better chance of having a decent AF to begin with and is more foolproof for the end user. however....if its lean...for whatever reason...its more difficult to get the flow to follow a different path towards the MAF wires since its location is generally fixed..

I had one like this when they first came out. I tried drilling more holes in an area i though would make it better...but I just made it worse...lol .
I belive Dave sent him another and it worked great. The real problem was not the Halo bar itself...it was the way the user installed it. It was not sitting flat and the bar got all bent up on install. In my attempt to fix it I took it beyond what could be reveresed. I think Dave sent him another and we installed it correctly and all was fine.


I think each one of us has points we are trying to get across. But these points are subtleties and almost down to preference. Not something thats really a winnable argeument IMO.

I do think there is a TON of good info here though

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Myself I have had very good luck with dual nozzles, as long as they are close to the MAF. The colder you get the wire the higher the inj DC will be increased, and that's why I allways say close is a better starting point. You'll end up with much better tuning options without going into the computer. I run low 13.x:1 n/a a/f, and 11.5 a/f on 1st stage, and 10.8 a/f when second stage kicks in. Now this is from the get go. here's what i did, both dual nozzles on 1st stage about 3 inches away and 90* cuased to rich of an a/f. So I changed one 90* nozzle to a straight shooter (into middle of air box) and ended with a starting a/f of 11.5. Now the second stage is dual straight shooters into the middle of the air box, and togther with 1st stage has a 10.8 a/f from the get go. Since this intial a/f i have gone into my PE multiplier and made a few minor tweeks, n/a still stayed around 13 to 1, and now I have a custom fuel curve to my likeing. The n/a a/f affect was/is so minor as to really have no bearing on n/a performance. We also have the option of slightly rotating the nozzles (90* and 70*) to adjust a/f. So in conclusion, we can get so damn close on desired a/f, with proper nozzle locations (we have this basically mapped out for all CAI systems on the vettes) fine tuning and going into the pcm becomes an option, but still a choice anywho for pulling timing automatically.

I also see this as two tunes in one, the MAF going to a higher frequency and increasing DC with out added pcm tuning, and of coure the auto timing pull in the pcm. truly two tunes in one, my way or like Al said.

Once the nitrous community comes out with a standard method of location (there are things in the works) we can then standardize the tuning and the starting a/f. It's great to be dry.

One more thing, tuning like Al has said, if the nozzles are to far away and the MAF is getting a diluted reading, then tuning for a good a/f in the pcm becomes much harder, this goes for a Halo also. I would like to see a Halo type bar mounted in the bellows closer to the MAF and more of a single bar, Dave? This could be a plate type sytem that you just cut the bellows and insert the dry plate, are ya manufacturing guys listening?
Robert

stealth71

iTrader: (15)

Good posts. Lots of info.

Jpr5690

iTrader: (13)

Yea What About A Maf Kit That Has built on holes To Fire Directly In Front Of The Maf Sensor In A Fogger Type Arrangement

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

So far in this thread we are discussing methods for existing dry setups. I have heard rumor about a setup that may be tested soon that will turn the dry nitrous world upside down. Every bit of this discussion will be moot from what I gather.

So anyone thats in the market for a dry kit may want to wait a few months.
Thats all that can be said about that at this point.

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

It's good to be on the dry inner circle.
Robert

Jpr5690

iTrader: (13)

Well **** I Just Spent $1200 With Nitro Dave About 30 Sec Ago!

All Well Ill Just Upgrade (if Nessiary) I Mean All They Can Really Do Is Either Make A Kit Like We Just Discussed Or Mabye Some Sort Of Piggyback Electronic That Controlls Maf Signal Based On N20 Pressure .. Either Of These Should Be Easily Implemented Into Existing Systems

bad6as

iTrader: (17)

could soem one send me a pm on this new thing?

is it like a dry plate? thats pre maf

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Not going to get specific here. Its my understanding that it needs final testing. But I can say its unlike anything ever made in the nitrous world and it has new technology. Maybe the first new technology to come along in the nitrous world since the development of the all in one nitrous wet nozzle.

Jpr5690

iTrader: (13)

quit bullshittin

Jpr5690

iTrader: (13)

no really though can you send me a pm on it...

red fury

iTrader: (1)

Robert let me in the inner circle LOL, you are the one that got me started on the dry stuff after numerous PM's. Will it be a totally new kit or will existing dry user be able to add it to their kit for a resonable price?

Anyway, can't wait to see some new dry technology

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Robert

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Stop trying guys...lol. No one really knows yet. Including me. When the vendor wants to let the cat out of the bag they will. Hopefully soon though




yes on both

B-RAD2

well the cat needs to come out.... i have this money i'm saving from being in IRAQ..

I like the kit that robert posted the vid of... but i have also seen a few good halo setups.. i just want a kit that i'm not going to have alot of problems with!!

Brad

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

As soon as its tested Im sure there will be info avaliable. But I dont have control over any of this. So dont beat me up on it...lol.

I promise you guys...as soon as I know more...you guys will know.