Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Ok I may have mis read the n/a 12.8 thing. But facts are facts. Never did i say it couldn't work or didn't work. It is just there are flaws and you don't want to see them. Try hitting your Halo with a 200 shot and get your a/f inline without screwing up your n/a a/f big time (you'll be maxing the MAF). Also, take a look at your dyno sheets and notice the intial lean spike, well i can show you dynos and wb loggings where the nozzles can and do eliminate the lean spike all together.
Man I see guys out of the Dave camp giving there opinions and insight on all the other products all the time. But, when anyone say's anything to the contrary of what the said camp has stated, then you guy's allways have a problem with that. It's not like I don't know what i am talking about when it comes to the dry stuff, just ask around. Again, I am not bashing anyone or any product, and my opinions/facts are mine alone and not influenced by any person or company. Can you say the same?
Robert

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Robert,
I think we can both agree there are different ways in achieving tunning in a dry system.Moe is only defending another way of tunning in a dry kit. Keep it technical and you may learn something new.

Moe does not normaly visit the web much but I can tell you he has tuned over 300 or so cars in my shop not including all the shops he back door tunes for. He tunes everything from boosted, Nitrous to NA cars and trucks. Anything from 300hp to 1,000 hp cars.

He knows his stuff....

On the Halo until you use one of our Halo with the side discharge yourself and tune the car properly I do not feel you have the knowledge to say whether the halo will work or not. Nothing personal..

Our original design with the front discharge we found to be tempermental on some cars. Sometimes the airflow would pull the nitrous through in a manner that the maff would not read it properly. Out of 50+ units sold when we first released it we had one car that just did not like it. Al happen to be the guy tunning that car.

So the fix was to take the discharges to the side and aim them strait across at each other. By doing so we are able to completely fog the intire airbox. There is no way the maff will not register the change.

Now That the maff is reading it you can make changes the proper way through computer tunning if needed. We have seen nothing but great results..

Now we all know with using nozzles you can tune your airfuel by changing nozzle location and rotation. This works... Thats why you like it so much. The only problem I see with doing this is that it leaves an area for mishap.. If your nozzle rotation changes for any reason and it is possible your tune will change on you and the possibilty of hurting the motor is greater..

No one is getting upset over here. Man this is an old post.lol
Guys please keep it technical.....
Dave

moehorsepower

iTrader: (3)

Yes I can, The only reason I back up Nitro Daves kits is because I was the tuner testing the product, Also we tested on a 100 shot and all I can tell you is that the Halo did what is was designed for, Never did I contradict your method in fact in my post I even said that yes nozzel position will vary the A/F nor did I ever say you dont know your stuff. I am just saying what we tested worked, Hopes this clears things and Thanks for your input. MoeHorsePower Tuning

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Moe,
When we tested the Halo on both the Zs that were in the shop we ended up spraying HP levels of 35-150 due to the fact that the bottom ends were stock.

I have since then had many customers spraying 200+ on our Halo with great success.

I guess its time for us to grab another car and put the Halo back on it with pictures and step by step technical advice so that we can clear up some of the misleading information. You up for it?
Dave

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Agreed. I have set-up a couple Halos. so, what i say as pre usual is from experiance. Ok, so I see a lean spike at activation, does this mean it won't work or will kill your motor, no. The point is, we have found that the way to eliminate the lean spikes is to get a nice cold imediate hit of spray on the Maf wires, and thus the placement of nozzles at 3 to 4 inches. Remember, dave, when the Halo came out i thought is was great, maybe the answer. But, imo, and that's what it is, nozzles are better, and really so, when going bigger with dry for many reasons.

Sorry, Moe, I didn't mean to imply that you don't know what your talking about, as clearly you do. However, being a employee of Dave's, would you really say anything that may be percieved as negative about your companies products? anyway, no worry hear. just input on my part.

Robert

moehorsepower

iTrader: (3)

Just give me a call when ready, glad to help out.........

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Ok lets get this done after this wedding.. Nothing can beat actual technical facts than personal opnions..

I wish I would have saved all the old stuff. But I would rather have new pics since we changed the discharge design anyways..
Dave

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Robert. Odds are you used one of our original designs (first) if you did test any. I would like to see proof that you did.

With our current design you will not get a lean spike if propely tunned. You are correct in the fact that if it did have a small lean spike its not going to hurt anything as lean spikes are sometimes common with nitrous systems.

To clear it up Moe is a engineer and does not work for Nitrous Outlet. We know longer have a speed shop. He did tune for us for six years while we had the speed shop though however he also tuned for many other shops. It just so happens we were in the same town and good friends. You are right he knows his stuff. He was tunning before many even knew what computer tunning was.

Instead of a bunch of argueing back and forth over whos way works best. Which we are trying to avoid.. We are just trying to defend a product that we know works well and as designed to do so.

I will share a post with you and everyone else on this board in a effort to educate after my wedding.

No hard feeling. I just would rather keep it technical instead of letting personal judgement and preferences cloud factual information.
Dave

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

How about having an unbiased tester do the testing. Of course the designer of the product will show correct a/f and dyno numbers to match with out stating how difficult it might be. but I would like to see a before and after a/f and know the way it was tuned. also, would like to see the before and after lean spike and see/know how you eliminate it. Also would be very interested in how your tuning the a/f with big hits, say 200hp and above where we know the MAF will be maxed out and at a min of around 10.0:1 a/f ratio. sure you can prob mess around in the pcm enough to fix all issues, but the normal guys wanting to run this set-up may not posse a full tuning software package, and this method will mess with the n/a tune. maybe mr223 would be a canidate? Or if ya trust me, i would be willing to do it. You say i might learn something, well you know if I do, I would be the first to admit it and post the findings. Anyway, I think we are doing pretty good here, I don't feel like choking you to death.
Robert

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Robert,
I will share the information to back my statements when I get time. I really am not concerned with if anyone doubts our results. Our reputation speaks for its self. I have no reason to hide facts or mis represent results. Anyone that knows me knows I speak nothing but the truth like it or not..

So I guess my view is this. Ill post the factual results just like I have in the past. Argue them or not I dont care. But they will be the truth.


Since you said "normal" applications this is in responce to that.
Most normal street cars are spraying in the range of 100-150 hp since that is what the stock bottom end is capable of taking safely. I have personaly seen the halo used for a 200 shot and talk to a customer using it for 300 with great results.

The Halo system was originally designed for the average street guy and has shown to be the best way at achieving safe HP when going dry. Ofcourse the system will produce more HP for the guys pushing the envalope but that is not what it was designed and marketed for.. Still will do it though...

Dave

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Ah ha, a third party tester has nothing to gain or loose. I don't doubt your results you post, however, selective advertising may come into effect. I have owned more than one company in my time, so I know how things go.

As far as proving that itested a Halo. well first i never really tested any but rather set a couple up. One was lean and had a intial lean spike which was worse. Now could this have been tuned out, maybe. however, we only had a wide band and no way to get into pcm. the other wasn't as bad, but was a tad lean through out the rpm range. now like stated in the other thread, this may have been due to using the early style.
You know I am pushing the envelope, send me a new style spray bar and I'll give it a try, good, bad and/or ugly? You know I like the dry stuff, so this would be one more tool in my dry bag of tricks?
Robert

bad6as

iTrader: (17)

is that new kit to dial in the a/f gonna be out soon?

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

Robert,
The Halo spray bar would not work with your application. The distrubution spray rings we offer would though.
Dave

fast98

iTrader: (16)

I have one of daves halo kits that I bought a lil over a year ago. I just recently got around to installing it on my camaro, my NA afr is 13:1 when I hit the kit it goes to 14:1 on a 175 shot, so I would say it does need some tuning out of the box. And it is the side discharge model

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

yea that's what i meant the spray ring.
Robert

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Yea and that's the problem. to get it at a safe a/f on the spray you would have to change the Power Enrichment Multiplier from 1.120 (13.12:1 a/f ratio)
all the way to 1.350 (10.8:1); why so rich, because the MAF isn't even reading good enough to produce the n/a commanded a/f ratio of 13.1, it's one point to the neg. So, now your driving around with a commanded 10.8 a/f at WOT N/A, you think your power/performance/mileage may be off? Whereas, if it was dual nozzles at the rec 3 to 4 inches, you'ed just aim one nozzle to hit the MAF wires directly, and wola approx 11.5 starting a/f ratio. And if it's not perfect to your demands, then you can slightly tweak the other nozzle, and last but not least, the PE multiplier can be tweaked just a tad bit, which wouldn't be enough to through the n/a tune off. I used this method on my last set-up and on my current set-up going all the way to a 285rwhp shot (currently 260rwhp) with the WOT PE Multiplier set at 13.x for all n/a driving/runs on both set-ups. I can post all the graphs and dyno/wb a/f print outs if anyone wants to see them, the befores and afters.

Like was said before, if ya have EFI Live, then it really does not matter what your starting a/f is, but how many have this new program?

Anywho the wait for something new is coming closer and closer to being over. Yes, I wish it would hit the market now, but...

Robert

YellowToy/A

iTrader: (1)

I am not sure that setting the timing and a/f would be as hard as this thread make it out to be. What I am going to try is put a relay in series with the niod. The relay will switch the IAT sensor to a know value(14 deg). I am going to use the IAT fuel PE modifier to set a/f ratio. Then use IAT timing table to set the timing. Is there some reason this will not work. It is one relay and resistor, so there is not much to. I think the halo with this set-up would be reliable and give great results. I like the fact that the nitrous would be well mixed.

The problem I see the that there is only one offset that could be used. It can not be changed with RPM. Has any one tried this?

fast98

iTrader: (16)

98's dont have that table, so for me im kinda screwed

Nitro Dave's Nitrous Outlet

iTrader: (25)

You are never screwed when dealing with us. Ill make sure you are taking care of. Ill have moe post here with some tunning info. If the 98s have a problem and it will not work on your car we will get you something that will.
Bare with me. Ill talk to Moe tonight.
Dave

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

The problem with IAT vs Fuel Adder is the fact that it's a slow response, and it can increase an allready less than desirable lean spike. This at the point (activation) when lean will/can do the most damage. The second problem, this can be very incositant, the temp will very up and down. many have tried to use this before with mixed results, but generally avoided. besides, if ya haven't logged your temps, you prob don't know that the nitrous being introduced so far from the MAF will be mixed with incoming air for a more diluted reading, or temp is lower. Now having the nozzles close to the MAF, this is where you'll have better luck getting the temps low enough to add fuel, but then again, if using nozzles you won't need this table.

Same thing with pulling timing with the method timing pull I propose. you need the quick very cold reading at the MAF, otherwise you'll have it set-up to pull timing in areas that are used n/a. So, again, a diluted warmer reading is less than optimum. I don't remember if I went through this method in this thread?

Anyway, yes the resistor tricks have been around for awhile and can be made to work, but why? If ya can get into your pcm there are better ways. The resis trick is very dated and one of the first attemps at making the dry hits work. But it's all good if ya want to try and set it up this way.

Robert