i was messing around with the idea to try something new with my dry nitrous setup, as i prefer to stay with the dry nitrous to keep from fuel puddling caused by wet kits and the damage that they may cause. what i am thinking about doing is basically a ring inside the neck of the airlid about 2 to 3 inches from the maf. basically what it will consist of is (2) small brass T-fittings and (2) U-shaped bends of copper tubing to conform to the inside of the airlids neck. the U-shaped bends will have holes drilled aiming down on the upper bend and holes aiming upward on the lower bend. once the (2) U-shaped bends are connected to the upper and lower part of the brass T-fittings, it will complete a circle with holes aiming toward the center of the ring. the (2) T-fittings will have a open connection on both sides of the nitrous ring to connect a nitrous line to and also accept nitrous jettings. this is just a idea and not sure if i will pursue it, but i would like some feedback, input and other ideas. the idea is to have a more spread out pattern rather than a direct stream going past the maf wires, but still be close enough to the maf to have a better control of the a/f with a dry kit. thanks BirdOnNos

 

we have something very similar to what you are wanting to do....



http://www.nitrousoutlet.com/catalog...roduct_id=1213

this ring is adjustible but might still be to big, but you can get the idea....also I don't see a benefit to using 2 lines coming off the solenoid as this will limit your jetting options.

 

on the 2 lines from the solenoid i was thinking of having more control on the fine tuning of the final a/f ratio, possibly smaller on one side in smaller steps to acheive a near perfect ratio, or even running a separate solenoid to each side making it able to be a 2 stage setup. the 2 u-bends would more than likely have the orfice size of a -3an or -4an size, thus it should support a rather large shot or dual shots if a solenoid was run to each side. just a idea, input and ideas are welcomed. also was thinking of a dry plate kit for the front of the maf, which would replace the front stock piece of the maf, similar to the way the wet kits are doing with the holes completely around but instead it would be placed before the maf wires for us dry guys, but i won't be able to play with that idea as i don't have the machine stuff to try it, although the above idea is doable with a few minutes spent in a home depot or napa for the fittings.

 

well today i went ahead and fabbed up the kit i designed a few days ago, went to napa and spent a whopping $20 for fittings and aluminum 1/4 inch tubing, it took a couple of tries to get it how i liked it, the ring has about 16 holes thru out the ring, placed and aimed right where i liked them. it should make a nice wall of nitrous or fog of nitrous to mix with the incoming air, as the air has to pass thru the nitrous ring. in the following pictures you can see how the ring is made. i did some custom fab work on the t-fitting going to the brass fittings on the lid. the t-fitting has (2) -3an sizes on both ends, what i did is cut off the rounded part of the t-fittings then drilled the holes bigger and deep enough for my nitrous jettings to fit inside. turned out great and they fit perfect, this is where i will change the jettings to up the shot to the ring. i am pretty sure that the 1/4 inch tubing will flow more than enough nitrous as i will stay around the 200hp level, it was pretty fun seeing it come together, time will tell how it performs. i will try to get a video of it in action on the dyno. still kinda surprised that nobody has made any comments or input.

 

Build it and they will come

Results and a finished item will bring in the comments I am sure!

 

Thats a pretty cool idea I like your way of thinking. I have always wondered why they have it for wet and not dry as you mentioned. It may not be worth anything as far as power goes but either way its cool and worth a shot.

 

Well it's not a new idea. The biggest hurdle is controling the a/f, with the ring, you get what you get. Nozzles have a little bit more tuning capability. However, there is a product coming that will put to rest all a/f concerns on the dry hit. If your set-up is a true ring, I see no real benifit to multiple lines and no real way to control a/f. Whereas, nozzles you can rotate a nozzle partialy (stream can totally miss wire if needed for a/f adjustment) or all the way (concerning the neck mount for dual nozzles) back into the stream for adjustments. Normally, both 90* nozzles, aimed at the MAF wire will be a little fat (at least when approaching 150 and above hits), so turning or rotating one can fine tune the a/f. In addition, you can jet one side larger than the other when having one rotated away from MAF, meaning if leanish, you can up the jet size pointing at the MAF to increase inj DC. This is what I believe you are getting at with the dual lines, however, I don't see the control with a ring. Once again, even the nozzle tuning I use will soon be void and nil. Stay tuned to your local ls1tech board.
Robert

 

beer i read alot of your posts and follow the nitrous thread everyday, so i thought i would try something i haven't seen with a dry kit, i read alot about guys having trouble with final a/f ratios with the dry kits, sometime placement of the nozzles can change the final a/f and get it in line with what is desired. being i have a clear lid i have seen how the single nozzle or dual nozzles act during wide open pulls, with my single nozzle placement close to the maf and pressures around 950-1050psi the nozzle sprays a fan type of mixture directed mostly into one place on the maf, and not really mixing with all of the air entering thru the T/B and maf. (more so with the left side of the maf) so what i have tried to do and hope to accomplish is a complete mixture of the nitrous gas with all air entering the throttlebody and maf by completing a 360 degree mixture of nitrous and air before the maf. hopefully this will give better results with a complete mixture of air and nitrous going into the motor and will result in better control of a final a/f ratio, as all of the maf should be hit with nitrous and air more evenly now.

 

What will happen with a ring so close to the MAF, you'll max out the MAF freq and go way rich. Now your dual nozzles in the side of your air box are probably running a little lean? Those would work much better as duals in the neck, and have been proven over and over. Even the duals in the neck can max the MAF out, however, we have ways to compansate for this. Your ring may work ok for smal shots, but I can gurantee that max the MAF is not far off if all the nitrous hits the wire. Anyway, I am really glad to see some take the plunge and try different things, this can only put more info and insight out for all of us to glean. Keep us updated on how things work out as I have been wrong before, I think once.

Edit: you did see my above post, as we posted exactly at the same time.
Robert

 

robert i see your point with the fine tuning of turning nozzles and placement of nozzles to increase or decrease a/f ratios, all works out in the end once you find the final ratios after twisting and turning. my goal here is to equally hit the maf with a complete cloud or wall of nitrous, instead of a single stream or dual stream of nitrous. as far as the final a/f i will make adjustments if need be by the placement of more holes into the ring aimed toward or away from the maf, the whole idea is to get a more complete mixture of air and nitrous before it hits the maf and enters the engine, for the sake of a equal amount of nitrous going into each cylinder as opposed to a directed fan type of mixture to one side of the motor. my take on it (although i may be wrong, one reason i am open for input) is that the perfect mixture of air and nitrous gas mixed before entering the engine would displace thru out each cylinder as even as air into the motor with the ring setup, as opposed to a direct fan type spray coming out at 950-1050psi straight past the maf and mixing with the air inside the intake. as far as running the dual -3an lines to the ring setup, is in the future i will add another solenoid and make the single ring a dual stage setup, as the 1/4 inch tubing should support well into the 200-250 shot zone, the -3an single line would be the limiting factor.

 

the halo kit is similar but located closer to the filter, hows your car coming along you gonna make it to memphis for the LSX shootout? you being a dry guy too, you know we can't let the wet guys have all the fun with the cool looking plate kits shooting streaming clouds of nitrous and gas mixtures.

 

I understand what your getting at about even mixture. But, the truth of the matter is the fact that nitrous weighs no more than air and has an inherent even distribution through out the intake. The only reason we go lean or rich is because we are trying to cool a wire down that wants to maintain a constant temp. So, mixing well with incoming air prior to the maf normally leads to a lean condition because the inj duty cycle hasn't been increased enough, or we haven't chilled the MAF wire enough. Now I still maintain that your postion with the tube style will result in an overly rich condition. Even breaking it into a dual stage, may allow the 1st stage to have a nice a/f, but when the 2nd stage hits you will overwhelm the MAF, or max it out. I can show how this was done with a dual nozzle set-up. Both nozzles, 90*'s, aiming at the MAf wire resulted in a a low 10.x:1 and sometimes lower, then changing one nozzle into a straight shooter (remember duals in the neck) so it was shooting back into the air box, jets were 50/50 or even size, and know we had a 11.5:1 area. So you can see how mixing the nitrous good with the air stream will lean it out because part of the chill factor misses the MAF wire completly, or reads a diluted mix. I don't think this is going to happen with a 360* nozzle close to the MAF as the spray pattern will be directed at the MAF wire. Time will tell the ultimate story.
Robert

 

Well the Halo hasn't exactly worked out either, it's either lean with smaller hits, or rich with bigger hits, and no way to adjust a/f without going into the comp and altering the tune which can effect n/a performance.
The car is coming along great. Won't make Memphis, but plan on attending the Pinks F-bod vs Stang, I think in Kansas later this summer. I will be driving the Vette there, with the a/c running, a true street/strip nitrous car capable of nines, I hope.
Robert

 

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This is not a bad way to do things. But even this will be very dependant on how the holes are drilled and the angle they are and the trajectory the nitrous exits. We all know the closer you are to the MAF the richer you are likley to be ( if the nitrous is aimed right) but also the closer you are the more likley youll miss the critical areas and be lean and the more important you need to adjust the "aim". In other words...the closer you are the less gaurenteed you are to hit the wires correctly. Getting a perffect cross section of nitrous spray is not easy.

So the farther away from the MAF...the more likley of a good mixture..or evenly spread crossectional area of nitrous....but...the less dense, which results in leaner AF ratio....but more consistant regardless of nozzle postion.

Roberts method works VERY well because its a simple task of rotating the nozzle to get the best aim. Then recheck for AF ratio.

If your ring has many many holes drilled...it may work....it may be lean. There is still no gaurentee. Youll just have to try it. I have tested some pieces that were spray bars in VERY close proximity to the MAF. They were all lean unfortunately.
Keeping a good AF ratio on dry is more than just getting a even crossectional area of nitrous across the MAF unfortunately. In my experiance...even with kits like the 5177...when the AF ratio is correct...the nitrous is NOT flowing evenly. Its targeting the wires almost by pure chance. Picture when you see the white smoke flowing over a surface when they do aerodynamic testing in a wind tunnel. Even though is may seem like there is a perfect cross sectio of nitrous...IMO there rarely is. That white smoke (or nitrous) will have a tendancy to follow the airpath its in. There are denser sections flowing through the intake neck and across the MAF. And the closer you get to the MAF the more specific those cross sections are....the more likely you are to miss the wires....UNLESS you have a method to aim it like Roberts setup.

If you can get your holes drilled well enough (probably the more the better) it may work. But so far...every time I have made a spray bar in VERY close proximity to the MAF...its lean. Yours in the neck may fair better since its a few inches in front still. Of course there is only one way to find out.


Now having said that....like Robert said...there is a product coming out that has solved this completely. It will gaurentee complete control of your Af ratio with dry kits from 10.0 to 15.0 to 1 Af ratio. The end of the dreaded "lean on the dry" problem. Its probably a few months away from production.

 

good info here, i am curious to see what this new kit consists of that will allow the end user to have control of the final a/f. my replacement wideband should be here by the middle of next week, i have my lc1 connected to hptuners and will get some log runs to see how it does.

 

good post 383LQ4SS, back in the day alot of your posts are what got me into the big dry nitrous kits, i remember that old pull with the clear lid you did along time ago, i read alot of your posts on the big dry hits and some of the testing and ideas you went thru, its good that a site like this exists, for people to have up to date info on the latest ideas and tried and true mods that work for these vehicles.

 

Yea, I remember when I was trying to do a dual stage dry type with a propane kicker, that's when I read one of Al's posts over at the Z06 forum, a few years ago. I have been a dry advocate every since, and probably was before, but the insight from Al has been great. Why was I trying to use a propane kicker, well early on, with dry hits, nozzle postion/location was not entirely known, and most kits would go lean. Well after understanding how a MAF worked, and the increasing of the inj DC, it didn't take long to start trying nozzle style/location/distance/quanity and so on.

Al, I think the reason the nozzle set-up can work so well when the nozzles are close, like 3 inches from wire (like mine), is because the force of the spray is such that it has no choice but to hit the wire (at least with the bigger hits). My last dyno pull the a/f stayed at 10.8:1 through the entire run. This is related to your smoke in a wind tunnel scenerio. I do know on past hits and set-ups I have seen the a/f go all over the place as you suggest. Can't wait to get my hands on the product that you are working on. However, it looks like I will have to hit my 9.xx on my old multi stage dry, hopefully anyway.
Robert

 

Curious to see how this works on the car. Seems to me a "wall" of nitrous would only be good if you had a "wall" of wires you're shooting at. Also, wouldn't the holes have to be progressively larger so the flow would be even as the pressure travels further?
I was going to set up a second stage but I think I'll wait for the new goodies Robert is working on...

 

why can't you just run the dry nozzle straight into the TB like the mustangs do? wouldn't that be easier to do?

 

Because they don't utilize the MAF to add the extra fuel like our cars do. Instead, they boost the fuel pressure with a boost a pump or something to that effect, to make the injectors flow more.