Whats up with the big dawgs??
08-21-2007, 11:00 PM
#41
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Just picked up a customers car 408 E85 m6 made just over 500 to the wheels I'll be doing a 2 stage 200-250 shot on the car so I'm guessing it will be in the 9's the car is a absolute monster on the streets.
08-22-2007, 07:50 AM
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shiz, i have no idea.
every person i showed the head to said, holly ****, i have never seen that befor in my life!!
here is a pic. its hard to see, but it goes right threw the back of the hole for the stud out both sides about an inch
every person i showed the head to said, holly ****, i have never seen that befor in my life!!
here is a pic. its hard to see, but it goes right threw the back of the hole for the stud out both sides about an inch
08-22-2007, 08:55 AM
#46
Originally Posted by Specialized
ls1408cp- gorgeous intake setup there, whats your expectation overall? LW bottle even- you going for a weight record here or something? lol
Beck-
Beck-
lighter the better, that is a nano nitrogen push kit sitting next to it also
08-22-2007, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Forteen3GT
car is ready to be started tommorow... I am going out of town til the middle of september.... then I will get some seat time. Going for a 9.99 slip with lots of weight.
I would like the car to run some sixteens on the jug 8th mile style!
Call me a growin pup!
BTW: it has a Gemini NX Plate kit... pilled to a 300..... I definately will be using that progressive controller for a good long while!
08-22-2007, 09:13 AM
#49
Its an intakeelbows.com elbow and looks like a nick williams 90mm throttlebody. The valley is a stock with some paint on it from what TRT says. atleast it looks good, thats about all it will ever do that empresses anyone.
08-22-2007, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by ATVracr
Noyzee, What did you weld in the head to effect it enough to where they wont warranty it?
Chambers? intake ports?
I say find a good welder and have it welded up and give it a shot.
Good luck !
Chambers? intake ports?
I say find a good welder and have it welded up and give it a shot.
Good luck !
but it isnt neer the crack, and its been that way for 3+ years
08-22-2007, 12:26 PM
#51
Guys....
First off I would like to think that AFR has proven beyond a doubt that we are extremely customer service oriented and usually bend over backwards for all of our customers. In fact I would like to think we set a new precedent in customer service when it came to the way we handled our valve tip heat treat issues some six to nine months back (actually reimbursing people for labor to R&R the heads....unheard of in this industry). We handle and treat people and situations the way we would want to be treated in a similar situation if we were in your shoe's (the customer).
That said, there are occasionally obvious issues that fall in line with warranty work (typical of any mass produced part)....then there are issues that are gray (don't really know whether the problem may have been induced by the customer or from a fault or defect in the product), and then there are the issues that clearly don't justify a warranty (like a blown up head because a customer didn't check or have enough piston to valve clearance with clear cut evidence of valves tagging pistons on the other cylinders).
This situation (while unrelated to piston to valve clearance) in our opinion qualifies as the third example above due to Brad's (Noyzee) decision to extensively weld EVERY water hole in the deck in an effort to improve its integrity. Unfortunately doing so will usually produce results 180 degrees of what was intended (essentially making things worse) UNLESS you re-heat treat the entire cylinder head to restore its strength/hardness as well as relieve the stress from all the welding that gets generated from the extreme localized heat during the process (there are a couple of different ways to accomplish that....vibratory is the most common).
Unfortunately none of that was done in this particular case and the bulk of the entire head deck (and bolt bosses terminating at the head deck) are all soft and far below AFR's acceptable minimum Rockwell rating of 100 (most of what we ship is in the 110-115 range). Most of the deck surface of Brad's head checked in the 40-60 range. This doesn't take into account the metal fatigue and stress that's brought into the aluminum from the intense heat in the welded areas. (Note that the head stud boss that failed had three water port opening welded shut directly below it).
We have NEVER seen an AFR LS1 head crack by the head bolt boss and are confident the extensive welding effected the integrity of our casting and ultimately set the stage for this head to fail (crack) a few years later after many repeated hot and cold cycles. The bottom line is whether it did or didn't can be argued by either side but all of you must realize that when you take a manufacturer's product and severely modify it, your basically waiving your right to any type of warranty (no matter who's product or what it is). Its not much different then bolting a huge blower on your factory leased ride (still under warranty), spinning a rod bearing (or worse) sometime later, and then rolling into the dealer expecting them to warranty the engine. Whether the blower (and the additional power output) actually caused the bearing to fail no one will know, but more than likely it played its part and without a doubt the service writer will tell you to have a nice day after he pops your hood.
Also, I feel bad that Brad sent the head in under the pretense that we were going to warranty it but at no time in any of our correspondence was there a mention to the extensive welding work done previously. Had I known I would have hit the brakes right there and informed him of the situation.
In the end in an attempt to do the best we could for our obviously disappointed customer (and knowing what's its like to be bummed out about speed parts gone bad because most of us here are racers) we offered Brad a smoking deal on a fully ported brand new casting. Fully machined, seats and guides installed and honed....valvejob done....basically a head ready to swap in valves and springs and assemble. We retail that piece for $1130 (thats for a single casting) and offered it to Brad for only $600. Literally less than our cost of the casting, parts included, and machine time needed to turn that casting into a beautiful CNC ported finished piece. I personally negotiated on his behalf to even make it that attractive and was disappointed to read today that he felt that wasnt a good enough deal. In fact I was disappointed to read about any negative sentiment directed our way but thats another story and I probably should have expected it.
I've enclosed some pics below of one of our unmodified older castings (what Brad's looked like before the welding) and put magic marker in circles around all the areas that had been welded. Below that is a pic without the red marker where its easier to appreciate just how much welding was actually done. BTW, the welding work was top notch....no signs of voids or pitting....it was very well done, but without the proper stress relieve and heat treat after the fact, the casting integrity is ruined from the localized intense heat of the weld. Also note that to properly re-heat treat the head all the guides and seats would have needed to be removed which really turns it into a huge endeavor.
Hope this helps educate some of you as well as clear a few things up concerning this situation...
Regards,
Tony Mamo
EDIT: I need a little time on the pics....will update this post shortly to include them
First off I would like to think that AFR has proven beyond a doubt that we are extremely customer service oriented and usually bend over backwards for all of our customers. In fact I would like to think we set a new precedent in customer service when it came to the way we handled our valve tip heat treat issues some six to nine months back (actually reimbursing people for labor to R&R the heads....unheard of in this industry). We handle and treat people and situations the way we would want to be treated in a similar situation if we were in your shoe's (the customer).
That said, there are occasionally obvious issues that fall in line with warranty work (typical of any mass produced part)....then there are issues that are gray (don't really know whether the problem may have been induced by the customer or from a fault or defect in the product), and then there are the issues that clearly don't justify a warranty (like a blown up head because a customer didn't check or have enough piston to valve clearance with clear cut evidence of valves tagging pistons on the other cylinders).
This situation (while unrelated to piston to valve clearance) in our opinion qualifies as the third example above due to Brad's (Noyzee) decision to extensively weld EVERY water hole in the deck in an effort to improve its integrity. Unfortunately doing so will usually produce results 180 degrees of what was intended (essentially making things worse) UNLESS you re-heat treat the entire cylinder head to restore its strength/hardness as well as relieve the stress from all the welding that gets generated from the extreme localized heat during the process (there are a couple of different ways to accomplish that....vibratory is the most common).
Unfortunately none of that was done in this particular case and the bulk of the entire head deck (and bolt bosses terminating at the head deck) are all soft and far below AFR's acceptable minimum Rockwell rating of 100 (most of what we ship is in the 110-115 range). Most of the deck surface of Brad's head checked in the 40-60 range. This doesn't take into account the metal fatigue and stress that's brought into the aluminum from the intense heat in the welded areas. (Note that the head stud boss that failed had three water port opening welded shut directly below it).
We have NEVER seen an AFR LS1 head crack by the head bolt boss and are confident the extensive welding effected the integrity of our casting and ultimately set the stage for this head to fail (crack) a few years later after many repeated hot and cold cycles. The bottom line is whether it did or didn't can be argued by either side but all of you must realize that when you take a manufacturer's product and severely modify it, your basically waiving your right to any type of warranty (no matter who's product or what it is). Its not much different then bolting a huge blower on your factory leased ride (still under warranty), spinning a rod bearing (or worse) sometime later, and then rolling into the dealer expecting them to warranty the engine. Whether the blower (and the additional power output) actually caused the bearing to fail no one will know, but more than likely it played its part and without a doubt the service writer will tell you to have a nice day after he pops your hood.
Also, I feel bad that Brad sent the head in under the pretense that we were going to warranty it but at no time in any of our correspondence was there a mention to the extensive welding work done previously. Had I known I would have hit the brakes right there and informed him of the situation.
In the end in an attempt to do the best we could for our obviously disappointed customer (and knowing what's its like to be bummed out about speed parts gone bad because most of us here are racers) we offered Brad a smoking deal on a fully ported brand new casting. Fully machined, seats and guides installed and honed....valvejob done....basically a head ready to swap in valves and springs and assemble. We retail that piece for $1130 (thats for a single casting) and offered it to Brad for only $600. Literally less than our cost of the casting, parts included, and machine time needed to turn that casting into a beautiful CNC ported finished piece. I personally negotiated on his behalf to even make it that attractive and was disappointed to read today that he felt that wasnt a good enough deal. In fact I was disappointed to read about any negative sentiment directed our way but thats another story and I probably should have expected it.
I've enclosed some pics below of one of our unmodified older castings (what Brad's looked like before the welding) and put magic marker in circles around all the areas that had been welded. Below that is a pic without the red marker where its easier to appreciate just how much welding was actually done. BTW, the welding work was top notch....no signs of voids or pitting....it was very well done, but without the proper stress relieve and heat treat after the fact, the casting integrity is ruined from the localized intense heat of the weld. Also note that to properly re-heat treat the head all the guides and seats would have needed to be removed which really turns it into a huge endeavor.
Hope this helps educate some of you as well as clear a few things up concerning this situation...
Regards,
Tony Mamo
EDIT: I need a little time on the pics....will update this post shortly to include them
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 08-22-2007 at 03:26 PM.
08-22-2007, 02:09 PM
#53
Originally Posted by ATVracr
So He had the head welded to make it stronger and it made it weaker, that sucks. 
Sounds like you did all you could for him Tony, a guy cant ask for more than that.
Sounds like you did all you could for him Tony, a guy cant ask for more than that.
08-22-2007, 04:20 PM
#54
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tony, i told you from the start these heads had work done, i told you they had been cut for springs and they where welded in spots.
no problem bud, they still shouldnt have done this.
cool, i'll send it back.
then you saw them, called me, told me these heads wont even stay on, and will leak right away ect. when i told you i had them like that for 3 years and have 2 other sets like that you said, uuummmmm. hhmmmmmm, i wouldnt think they would work.
well they did.
either way, its over done, send the head back and i'll get a new set.
thanks
no problem bud, they still shouldnt have done this.
cool, i'll send it back.
then you saw them, called me, told me these heads wont even stay on, and will leak right away ect. when i told you i had them like that for 3 years and have 2 other sets like that you said, uuummmmm. hhmmmmmm, i wouldnt think they would work.
well they did.
either way, its over done, send the head back and i'll get a new set.
thanks
08-22-2007, 04:27 PM
#55
Whether the blower (and the additional power output) actually caused the bearing to fail no one will know, but more than likely it played its part and without a doubt the service writer will tell you to have a nice day after he pops your hood.
Actually, I beg to differ. A manufacturer must now prove fault caused by aftermarket modification to a vehicle or part which is covered under warranty in order to not cover said warrantied part.
That said, because the manufacturer could not directly correlate a cause to Brad's modification (whether or not the welding actually decreased the Rockwell hardness)- there should not have been such a hassle. Obviously since this is a grey area and this problem doesn't seem to be surfacing as a common problem.
On the other hand, while I was not behind the decision and obviously all of the factors involved in making this decision to not replace the head under a warranty type situation- I would assume that a company as large (being one of the top aftermarket cylinder head manufacturers for late-model vehicles) as AFR would not even really be affected by a claim such as this. If I was in a position wuch as yourself Tony, I would not have ever tried to "justify" my position or reasoning behind refusing a warranty over the internet simply because you have smart-asses such as myself who would question without a doubt any non-customer oriented decision you could make.
Not trying to sound like a *****, just trying to help you out.
08-22-2007, 04:39 PM
#56
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i know if i had an unhappy customer and couldnt say 100% it was or wasnt my issue i would eat the humble pie, take the good feed back and hope to make up my loses on the good feed back and selling more heads to people i recomened. however it isnt much, but i have 3 head swaps planned for the next couple months and after the issue here i will not be ordering afr heads.
i know its 3 sets of heads woopie dooo, but hey, it would have made up the loss and saved time posting.
ps, i didnt say anything bad about afr, just stated the issues.
My update is im down for a few more weeks, waiting on a new Head, mine cracked on the side into a water jacket.
AFR is replacing it, said it must have been a air pocket or somthing, said they have never seen it before, nor did i or anyone that saw it.
it started leaking water, i thought maybe i got a head gasket, ripped it all down to find no problem,
hhmmm, maybe warped head, Nope.
hmm, then we found the crack.
afr realy stepped up tho, and they are replacing the head free of charge. <<<<EDIT THIS! AFR isnt replacing the head
once i get it, i will finally get to test the car with the new carb style intake, speed dens tune, and 4:30 gears.
i cant wait. and the weather will be nice and cool
here is my quote
i know its 3 sets of heads woopie dooo, but hey, it would have made up the loss and saved time posting.
ps, i didnt say anything bad about afr, just stated the issues.
My update is im down for a few more weeks, waiting on a new Head, mine cracked on the side into a water jacket.
AFR is replacing it, said it must have been a air pocket or somthing, said they have never seen it before, nor did i or anyone that saw it.
it started leaking water, i thought maybe i got a head gasket, ripped it all down to find no problem,
hhmmm, maybe warped head, Nope.
hmm, then we found the crack.
afr realy stepped up tho, and they are replacing the head free of charge. <<<<EDIT THIS! AFR isnt replacing the head
once i get it, i will finally get to test the car with the new carb style intake, speed dens tune, and 4:30 gears.
i cant wait. and the weather will be nice and cool
here is my quote
08-22-2007, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by turbo'd stang
I had mine going...attempting to be a "big dog," but got shot down. We got it all ready to race, guys from the shop take it out to the track. I ended up working a little later than planned, so I told them to make a pass. All of the stars must have aligned just right...I had a NA tune in it.....they thought it would be cool to hit it ***** to the wall the first pass. 29* of timing, pump gas and a 350 shot don't work well
Yeah, they blew it up in 2 passes..lol. I get out to the track and they are loading my smoking car up. I'm asking, WTF? After looking at the data logger, I knew it was toast. This motor is back at Hans Feustals for a new set of pistons.
I just got my 408 from HKE, so this will be going in the car now. Its getting all the parts off the blown up motor, with a different cam. Round number two.....
Yeah, they blew it up in 2 passes..lol. I get out to the track and they are loading my smoking car up. I'm asking, WTF? After looking at the data logger, I knew it was toast. This motor is back at Hans Feustals for a new set of pistons. I just got my 408 from HKE, so this will be going in the car now. Its getting all the parts off the blown up motor, with a different cam. Round number two.....
damn scott... sounds like a preminishion on what coulda happened to me! LOL....
I plan on progressively hitting it with a 300 shot after putting some miles on it... and some miles with a 150 first... then gradually taking timing out on the bottle.
Sorry to hear... good luck... get it running so I can drag you!
08-22-2007, 05:52 PM
#58
Brad,
I am truly sorry you feel the way you do....(we want happy customers). But you have to draw a line in the sand when it comes to handling issues that arise and you guys have to be realistic about your expectations concerning warrantied items.
I dont want to get into a he said / she said situation but I'm 100% sure the fact every water hole was welded closed did not come up in the conversation we had. To be honest I dont recall whether any mention of "weld" was discussed (it may have) but Im crystal clear on the fact I had no idea the deck was going to look solid when the heads arrived.
Guys....be it my product or anyone else's....start doing extensive welding on a manufacturer's casting and you just null and voided your warranty...at least concerning a warranty involving the actual casting.
As I mentioned, I am sorry you feel AFR is no longer a stand up company and wont be endorsing our product any longer but IMO those feeling are unwarranted and I think we handled it as fairly as we could considering the situation.
Not to mention we have guys putting up close to 1000 HP and more with out of the box head. The head deck is extremely strong as delivered from us and would have easily put up with the power level you were at provided the tune-up was reasonably close.
OK....Im done "defending our position" now. I just felt the members of this board deserved to hear both sides of the story. If you guys want to send out the lynch mob you can find me in Valencia. And posting on the Internet is part of my job description anyway....not that big a deal. Its just usually reserved for more tech related topics.
Thanks,
Tony
I am truly sorry you feel the way you do....(we want happy customers). But you have to draw a line in the sand when it comes to handling issues that arise and you guys have to be realistic about your expectations concerning warrantied items.
I dont want to get into a he said / she said situation but I'm 100% sure the fact every water hole was welded closed did not come up in the conversation we had. To be honest I dont recall whether any mention of "weld" was discussed (it may have) but Im crystal clear on the fact I had no idea the deck was going to look solid when the heads arrived.
Guys....be it my product or anyone else's....start doing extensive welding on a manufacturer's casting and you just null and voided your warranty...at least concerning a warranty involving the actual casting.
As I mentioned, I am sorry you feel AFR is no longer a stand up company and wont be endorsing our product any longer but IMO those feeling are unwarranted and I think we handled it as fairly as we could considering the situation.
Not to mention we have guys putting up close to 1000 HP and more with out of the box head. The head deck is extremely strong as delivered from us and would have easily put up with the power level you were at provided the tune-up was reasonably close.
OK....Im done "defending our position" now. I just felt the members of this board deserved to hear both sides of the story. If you guys want to send out the lynch mob you can find me in Valencia. And posting on the Internet is part of my job description anyway....not that big a deal. Its just usually reserved for more tech related topics.
Thanks,
Tony
08-22-2007, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by big thumper122
Turbo'd is the shop....
Take some timing out!! 350 with 29 degrees of timing!
I planned to pull atleast 8-10 degrees on mine.
08-22-2007, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tony Mamo @ AFR
Brad,
I am truly sorry you feel the way you do....(we want happy customers). But you have to draw a line in the sand when it comes to handling issues that arise and you guys have to be realistic about your expectations concerning warrantied items.
I dont want to get into a he said / she said situation but I'm 100% sure the fact every water hole was welded closed did not come up in the conversation we had. To be honest I dont recall whether any mention of "weld" was discussed (it may have) but Im crystal clear on the fact I had no idea the deck was going to look solid when the heads arrived.
Guys....be it my product or anyone else's....start doing extensive welding on a manufacturer's casting and you just null and voided your warranty...at least concerning a warranty involving the actual casting.
As I mentioned, I am sorry you feel AFR is no longer a stand up company and wont be endorsing our product any longer but IMO those feeling are unwarranted and I think we handled it as fairly as we could considering the situation.
Not to mention we have guys putting up close to 1000 HP and more with out of the box head. The head deck is extremely strong as delivered from us and would have easily put up with the power level you were at provided the tune-up was reasonably close.
OK....Im done "defending our position" now. I just felt the members of this board deserved to hear both sides of the story. If you guys want to send out the lynch mob you can find me in Valencia. And posting on the Internet is part of my job description anyway....not that big a deal. Its just usually reserved for more tech related topics.
Thanks,
Tony
I am truly sorry you feel the way you do....(we want happy customers). But you have to draw a line in the sand when it comes to handling issues that arise and you guys have to be realistic about your expectations concerning warrantied items.
I dont want to get into a he said / she said situation but I'm 100% sure the fact every water hole was welded closed did not come up in the conversation we had. To be honest I dont recall whether any mention of "weld" was discussed (it may have) but Im crystal clear on the fact I had no idea the deck was going to look solid when the heads arrived.
Guys....be it my product or anyone else's....start doing extensive welding on a manufacturer's casting and you just null and voided your warranty...at least concerning a warranty involving the actual casting.
As I mentioned, I am sorry you feel AFR is no longer a stand up company and wont be endorsing our product any longer but IMO those feeling are unwarranted and I think we handled it as fairly as we could considering the situation.
Not to mention we have guys putting up close to 1000 HP and more with out of the box head. The head deck is extremely strong as delivered from us and would have easily put up with the power level you were at provided the tune-up was reasonably close.
OK....Im done "defending our position" now. I just felt the members of this board deserved to hear both sides of the story. If you guys want to send out the lynch mob you can find me in Valencia. And posting on the Internet is part of my job description anyway....not that big a deal. Its just usually reserved for more tech related topics.
Thanks,
Tony
Tony.... this discussion should be over. No need to "defend" your position on the warranty. He flat out welded on the head. It wasnt a necessary task for the heads to work. He voided the warranty. Imagine GM actually warranting something after a customer welds on the part. Brad took a gamble.... he should of known that doing so would void the warranty. It lasted 4 years...... great. Whether or not the head cracked due to the welding is a moot point. He welded the head up, thereby voiding any warranty.
Brad... when you say put a y connect on it..... you saying remove before the line feeds into the plate to y the plate off and have each side work independantly? I assumed when he plumed the lines the shop would go ahead and do that. also.... where can I get 2 lines that are 1 feet long to make this work?