Whats up with the big dawgs??
08-23-2007, 11:37 AM
#81
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Originally Posted by Noyzee
yeah, i think i will be going etp, they make nice stuff, and im hoping edlbrock has the super victor done for next season, that what i will run.
1mean, not sure the block would fix your issues, whats blowing up?
1mean, not sure the block would fix your issues, whats blowing up?
08-23-2007, 11:38 AM
#82
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
Went 10.1@133 on a 150 wet shot on a 1.45 in 3000 DA air, I think you would agreed it will go 9.9 hooking better.
I'd agree with Shiz and Noyzee.
An 8.9 car is a different set up than a 9.9-9.6 set up. The right converter would play a big part in it going the number.
To go 8's with a 346 and spray would be pretty cool. I think Smith has the 346 record at 9.32.
Good luck with it ... see you in Memphis
08-23-2007, 11:55 AM
#83
I'm thinking 400 shot for 8's.
If he can go 8s on a 347, then Im going to trap 145+ on my motor. Get kicked out of the track, sure. But I just want to do it once.
347, 11.6:1 or so compression, OE casting heads, smallish cam
Last edited by Specialized; 08-23-2007 at 12:51 PM.
08-23-2007, 12:15 PM
#84
Originally Posted by Specialized
If he can go 8s on a 347, then Im going to trap 145+ on my motor. Get kicked out of the track, sure. But I just want to do it once.
347, 11.6:1 or so compression, OE casting heads, smallish cam
347, 11.6:1 or so compression, OE casting heads, smallish cam
08-23-2007, 12:18 PM
#85
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1 mean, that sucks!!
atv, its easy to go 8's tho, remember that.
john, 400 threw your current setup may only blow threw your converter.
on my 346 set up i had it set up foraprox 200-250
the car went a 9.43 with 250 i bumped it to 300 and went a 9.40, then a 9.41 then a 9.40 again.
50 hp for 3 tenths because the converter just wasnt letting it do its thing.
its not just dump spray in it and go. it may work with your setup, not sure what converter, gear, cam you have, who knows it might be perfect.
atv, its easy to go 8's tho, remember that.
john, 400 threw your current setup may only blow threw your converter.
on my 346 set up i had it set up foraprox 200-250
the car went a 9.43 with 250 i bumped it to 300 and went a 9.40, then a 9.41 then a 9.40 again.
50 hp for 3 tenths because the converter just wasnt letting it do its thing.
its not just dump spray in it and go. it may work with your setup, not sure what converter, gear, cam you have, who knows it might be perfect.
08-23-2007, 12:29 PM
#86
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i had to change converter, gears and go up from a 150 to a 200 shot just to go from a 9.44 to a 9.32 with my little motor. i think its gonna be right hard to just throw a lot of nitrous at a little motor to go 8's but i do think that it can be done.
i wish my new setup would run as good right out the box at my old setup. this one is taking a lot more time.
i wish my new setup would run as good right out the box at my old setup. this one is taking a lot more time.
08-23-2007, 06:51 PM
#88
Originally Posted by SMITH
i had to change converter, gears and go up from a 150 to a 200 shot just to go from a 9.44 to a 9.32 with my little motor. i think its gonna be right hard to just throw a lot of nitrous at a little motor to go 8's but i do think that it can be done.
i wish my new setup would run as good right out the box at my old setup. this one is taking a lot more time.
i wish my new setup would run as good right out the box at my old setup. this one is taking a lot more time.
08-23-2007, 08:58 PM
#90
Originally Posted by ShiznityZ28
Aint that the truth. atv's has been giving us the headaches.
It never gets any easier does it
I got the alternator on and the main wire ran to the battery tonite.
Might go to Capitol tomorrow night, is it OK to take the trailer? I'm gonna drive the car to the track and see if I can get Chad to take the trailer.
Call me tomorrow slacker
08-23-2007, 11:27 PM
#91
Originally Posted by ATVracr
I have a 200amp alternator on order .... as long as its not 100* out next weekend I'm going to take the car out and test.
8's isnt going to be easy at 3700 lbs. (unless your name is ls1408cp)
If it goes 9.2 or better I'll be happy.
Shiznity's car should be back out in 2-3 weeks ... alittle lighter and quicker hopefully
8's isnt going to be easy at 3700 lbs. (unless your name is ls1408cp)
If it goes 9.2 or better I'll be happy.
Shiznity's car should be back out in 2-3 weeks ... alittle lighter and quicker hopefully
08-24-2007, 07:48 AM
#94
I call that a hummer not a dump truck.
08-24-2007, 09:31 AM
#96
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Originally Posted by ATVracr
I dont think anyone has ever been 145mph with a 346+N20.
08-24-2007, 11:18 AM
#98
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Noyzee,
I saw that you had posted in the mod section about your cylinder head situation. To be honest, I was really suprised that your head had cracked based on what I had seen of the AFR casting. I thought the issue had been resolved, and now I see that it is not.
I understand your saying that you welded the head to increase rigidity. But, the head already has a 3/4" deck, so I'm really not sure how much more rigid you were going to make it. I understand what you were trying to do, I guess I just question the need or validity of such a modification. But, I am sure you had your reasons for doing so. If you had wanted to close off the deck, you could have threaded the coolant holes and installed pipe lugs to accomplish the same net effect, but again, I just simply question the need to do so.
But, that being said, I have been around a lot of aluminum repairs at the shop. I know you have gotten away with it on other sets of heads, but I personally would not have welded up a set of heads like that. Having said that, if someone welds extensively on an aluminum head on an aluminum block you normally need to consider going back and heat treating it depending on what has been done, and where. If you will remeber that Patriot was welding up 6.0L heads, and selling them on here. Every one of those heads were not only welded, but they were also completely heat treated. They had to be. The heads would have fallen apart had they not done so.
Let me explain why. When you heat aluminum it softens. Even aluminum that has already been through a heat treatment process, anneals. Anealing is softening the material. It doesn't matter if it has been heat treated, it will soften. How much depends on a lot of factors including the heat treatment, the alloy, how long it is heated, etc...
When you weld on aluminum, you an not only anneal it, but you can also embrittle it in certain areas which will create soft and hard spots in your casting. The latent heat from the welding process will heat treat a small area whaile softening the area around it. I see this all the time on heads which have been overheated, or not only overheated, but overheated, and welded up to repair a bad spot in the head. When you have a casting which has been in a motor which has been really, really overheated the heat treat in the aluminum is just simply gone. When you try to cut the head, the cutter doesn't cut cleanly, it just tears or smears the metal on the head. So, you have to adjust your machining process on the head. On a head which has been overheated, and welded, you have hard and soft spots that stand out as the material is cleanly machined, and in other spots just "torn off". Again, you have to adjust for how you cut stuff like that.
Aluminum is heat treated differently than steel and, while it is not as easy to harden it, it can be softened without much difficulty. In fact, it is so easy to anneal aluminum that engine builders have to be cautious when heating aluminum heads and other aluminum components in an oven for cleaning or straightening purposes because if exposed to too much heat for too long, the part will lose temper. Keep in mind, an over is maybe 200 degrees. Welding is 1400-1800.
To harden aluminum there are a few methods that are used. One method is to cold work the material. Cold working may, in some cases, be an unintended consequence of machining aluminum. In other words as you take a piece of aluminum and machine it, it will in many cases harden as it is worked. A prime example of this is to watch someone anneal an piece of aluminum flat plate with a torch. They they throw it up on an "English Wheel" and start to rolll a curve in it. With just a small ammount of curve, the plate that you could bend with your hands with ease will now support the weight of a full groen man standing on it with little or no deflection. Another way that aluminum is hardened is with a solution heat treatment where chemicals are diffused into the component to to create the desired characteristics. Aluminum is typically tempered to a hardened state and is rated in several levels of hardness and strength. A T4 tempered aluminum component has less hardness but more ductility, whereas a T6 or T7 temper may be harder but also more brittle. This is what you would see in a cylinder head, or a block. Most engine parts I've seen are heat treated to T6. To understand what process has been used to harden a part, here are the designators. F = As fabricated, O = Annealed, H = Strain hardened; W = Solution heat-treated and T = Thermally treated. So, anything with a T in the name means it used heat to harden it. Heat makes it harder, and heating it again will make it softer.
Aluminum is more prone to softening than to hardening. In a softened, annealed state, aluminum components do not have as much hardness or toughness but they do have ductility and formability. It is therefore a tradeoff between which properties are most desired for the application. But , when you have a piece which has both, you create stress points, fracture points, and just an all around place for a failure to occur. Its not to say you can't weld up aluminum. you can. But you have to be aware of what you are doing, and what you are doing to the casting. If you want to extensively weld a casting then you have to finish up the job by re-heat treating it otherwise you have to expect that you may compromise the integrity of the part you have worked on.
In many cases to extensively weld up aluminum that has been heat treated, you need to anneal it first, then weld, it, then re-heat treat it. So, the process goes something like this...
I understand that you feel AFR should have given you a new casting, and as I understand it, they offered you a heavily discounted casting to replace your unit. I further understand from reading your post that you did not feel this was either fair or equitable. But, I am going to have to say that in this case I have to agree with AFR in that the root cause of your failure based on the test data is because of the extensivel modifications. The fact that none of the other modified units have failed may depend on other factors.
I think you can agree that no one else with an un-modified heads has seen this sort of failure. While I understand from a cost standpoint that it sucks to have to purchase another head, I think AFR made a good faith effort to work with you. I understand your frustration based on all you have had to deal with in getting this all together and working, but in this case, I can't fault AFR for thier part.
It is my fervent hope that you can get your car back together soon, and start enjoying it again. Take care....
I saw that you had posted in the mod section about your cylinder head situation. To be honest, I was really suprised that your head had cracked based on what I had seen of the AFR casting. I thought the issue had been resolved, and now I see that it is not.
I understand your saying that you welded the head to increase rigidity. But, the head already has a 3/4" deck, so I'm really not sure how much more rigid you were going to make it. I understand what you were trying to do, I guess I just question the need or validity of such a modification. But, I am sure you had your reasons for doing so. If you had wanted to close off the deck, you could have threaded the coolant holes and installed pipe lugs to accomplish the same net effect, but again, I just simply question the need to do so.
But, that being said, I have been around a lot of aluminum repairs at the shop. I know you have gotten away with it on other sets of heads, but I personally would not have welded up a set of heads like that. Having said that, if someone welds extensively on an aluminum head on an aluminum block you normally need to consider going back and heat treating it depending on what has been done, and where. If you will remeber that Patriot was welding up 6.0L heads, and selling them on here. Every one of those heads were not only welded, but they were also completely heat treated. They had to be. The heads would have fallen apart had they not done so.
Let me explain why. When you heat aluminum it softens. Even aluminum that has already been through a heat treatment process, anneals. Anealing is softening the material. It doesn't matter if it has been heat treated, it will soften. How much depends on a lot of factors including the heat treatment, the alloy, how long it is heated, etc...
When you weld on aluminum, you an not only anneal it, but you can also embrittle it in certain areas which will create soft and hard spots in your casting. The latent heat from the welding process will heat treat a small area whaile softening the area around it. I see this all the time on heads which have been overheated, or not only overheated, but overheated, and welded up to repair a bad spot in the head. When you have a casting which has been in a motor which has been really, really overheated the heat treat in the aluminum is just simply gone. When you try to cut the head, the cutter doesn't cut cleanly, it just tears or smears the metal on the head. So, you have to adjust your machining process on the head. On a head which has been overheated, and welded, you have hard and soft spots that stand out as the material is cleanly machined, and in other spots just "torn off". Again, you have to adjust for how you cut stuff like that.
Aluminum is heat treated differently than steel and, while it is not as easy to harden it, it can be softened without much difficulty. In fact, it is so easy to anneal aluminum that engine builders have to be cautious when heating aluminum heads and other aluminum components in an oven for cleaning or straightening purposes because if exposed to too much heat for too long, the part will lose temper. Keep in mind, an over is maybe 200 degrees. Welding is 1400-1800.
To harden aluminum there are a few methods that are used. One method is to cold work the material. Cold working may, in some cases, be an unintended consequence of machining aluminum. In other words as you take a piece of aluminum and machine it, it will in many cases harden as it is worked. A prime example of this is to watch someone anneal an piece of aluminum flat plate with a torch. They they throw it up on an "English Wheel" and start to rolll a curve in it. With just a small ammount of curve, the plate that you could bend with your hands with ease will now support the weight of a full groen man standing on it with little or no deflection. Another way that aluminum is hardened is with a solution heat treatment where chemicals are diffused into the component to to create the desired characteristics. Aluminum is typically tempered to a hardened state and is rated in several levels of hardness and strength. A T4 tempered aluminum component has less hardness but more ductility, whereas a T6 or T7 temper may be harder but also more brittle. This is what you would see in a cylinder head, or a block. Most engine parts I've seen are heat treated to T6. To understand what process has been used to harden a part, here are the designators. F = As fabricated, O = Annealed, H = Strain hardened; W = Solution heat-treated and T = Thermally treated. So, anything with a T in the name means it used heat to harden it. Heat makes it harder, and heating it again will make it softer.
Aluminum is more prone to softening than to hardening. In a softened, annealed state, aluminum components do not have as much hardness or toughness but they do have ductility and formability. It is therefore a tradeoff between which properties are most desired for the application. But , when you have a piece which has both, you create stress points, fracture points, and just an all around place for a failure to occur. Its not to say you can't weld up aluminum. you can. But you have to be aware of what you are doing, and what you are doing to the casting. If you want to extensively weld a casting then you have to finish up the job by re-heat treating it otherwise you have to expect that you may compromise the integrity of the part you have worked on.
In many cases to extensively weld up aluminum that has been heat treated, you need to anneal it first, then weld, it, then re-heat treat it. So, the process goes something like this...
I understand that you feel AFR should have given you a new casting, and as I understand it, they offered you a heavily discounted casting to replace your unit. I further understand from reading your post that you did not feel this was either fair or equitable. But, I am going to have to say that in this case I have to agree with AFR in that the root cause of your failure based on the test data is because of the extensivel modifications. The fact that none of the other modified units have failed may depend on other factors.
I think you can agree that no one else with an un-modified heads has seen this sort of failure. While I understand from a cost standpoint that it sucks to have to purchase another head, I think AFR made a good faith effort to work with you. I understand your frustration based on all you have had to deal with in getting this all together and working, but in this case, I can't fault AFR for thier part.
It is my fervent hope that you can get your car back together soon, and start enjoying it again. Take care....
08-24-2007, 01:05 PM
#99
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j-rod, i type slow, if i had to type what you typed it would take 3 days. lol
good info tho, but again like i said, its over its done im going to see about fixing the head for this season then replacing them next season (not with afr's)
afr did there thing, i know what i would have done. its done tho either way.
if i get it back up and running fine, if not oh well.
good info tho, but again like i said, its over its done im going to see about fixing the head for this season then replacing them next season (not with afr's)
afr did there thing, i know what i would have done. its done tho either way.
if i get it back up and running fine, if not oh well.