ATVracr

iTrader: (5)

No 1/2 head studs he ran L19's and I have ARP 2000 studs.

Cometic gaskets.

XLR8N

iTrader: (3)

Wasn't there some one who was having issues with their AFR heads lifting? IIRC they filled the water ports up then drilled a small hole in it to alieviate the problem?

ATVracr

iTrader: (5)

Shiz had AFR's, I have ETP's no problems with 400 or more N20.

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

^^ exactly....the heads you guys have also have thicker decks than stock. This would seem to indicate its more of a head warp issue than a bolt stretch issue.

So it appears there are atleast two cases here that headbolts are are not a huge issue as long as you have good ARP head studs.

Stock tq to yeald headbolt could very well be another issue though.

And of course any 5 bolt config would help tremendously.

What about how and when the spray activates to help control spikes?

ATVracr

iTrader: (5)

Mine was 200 shot on a WOT switch only. Then the 2nd stage (150 shot) on at 52-5400.

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

so you are staging by RPM then?

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

I can't disagree, though it seems it may be both or either depending on, well not sure. I haven't lifted my stock ls6 heads @ 250/280 on the 346, nor on the 300 on the 408 with L19s? But still, I want to run some Dart heads because they are much meatier, and the chances are probably better of never having an issue if all bases are covered.
Robert

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

True, but can this be made up with a stronger material? Why don't we have ½ studs made of the stronger L19 material, then that would be a bad azz stud for sure. Seems if this was the ultimate cure, then they would be out there on our cars. Must be some sort of reasoning? Maybe it's just better not to drill out head (loose surface clamping area?) and open up the threads? Anyway, I agree a lot with the cleaning of the threads, many over look this. My teacher taught me, when you think they are clean enough, do em again, lol.
Robert

Beaflag VonRathburg

iTrader: (176)

Yes, It's completely possible and it's not limited to the heads. The block itself can physically flex also. That's one of the problems with larger studs. It increases the possibility of the deck flexing because you're removing material from the surface to install the studs.

Same here. When ever anyone is taking them out I recommend studs.

The aluminum deck is most certainly weaker than a bolt. The thing is the stress is extended over a larger surface than that of the bolt. In extreme applications the block and head decks can and will flex before the bolt has any problems.

That's one of the reasons O rings with receiver grooves help. They act as an additional area to resist flexing and help seal the gaskets

You have to order them from ARP. The thing is you have to time it right. If they are making a batch of them they are about $650-750 if I remember correctly. If they have to special order the material and make them for you they are $1200-1300.

That's the thing. I hate to sound like a Guess Who nutswinger, but that's what he always says, "You don't lift the heads if you don't detonate." He's hitting his with a 500 shot on a 4 bolt per head application. I'm not sure what he's doing for head studs.

Noyzee had a problem with his heads cracking due to not being rehardened after being welded on. The welding messes with the heat treatment. Pictures of what he did (top) versus a normal AFR head on the bottom:

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Man you have some good insight on this issue. Something you pointed out is the fact that most run the alum blocks and thus get some distortion, whereas, the iron 408's are much more stable and the results should favor less lifting with iron blocks. What do you think? My 408 was built/guaranteed to handle 1000hp, I wonder if this is a safe aluminum number for the masses, as it seems that at least ATV and Shiz are at these levels. This is becoming a very interesting debate. By the way, nice info on the studs/bolts; I copied info to my notes for future reference, thanks.
Robert

tuff

iTrader: (15)

My thery is a bit diffrent.I belive it is in the block more than head studs or the heads.The ford guys have been on a four bolt system for some time and there is alot of nmra guys making big power and not pushing a drop.The head bolt spread is pretty dam close also, but there on a 1/2 stud also.I know of cars with 1/2 studs and copper pushing water on a iron block.I know the copper thing at this point in time is not the cure to stop from pushing water, Been there done that and i am going back to a standard gasket.I belive the problem is in the block, the deck is very thin and the bores are not siamese to lock them together.The cylinders at high cylinder pressures will just move or rattle around causing water to find its way.I really feel if you had a LSX block still in a four bolt setup i feel you will find pushing water a thing of the past at the 1000hp mark.But if you upgraded to a l19 or a 1/2 stud the limit will increase.I also like the 1/2 stud better than the l 19, only reason is the bigger nut will hold a better clamping force and higher torque without the nut threads stretching.The studs are of diffrent materal but the nuts are of the same materal causing the smaller nut to fail first.Also compresion has plays a roll in pushing water also, Im at almost 14.1 were some guys are not and are able to hit larger shots at the motor vs me at higher compression can't hit it as hard.Bottom line the 6.0 iron block was desined for a passenger car not a 1000hp beast.W2W had there big turbo car that made big power but the block was filled also.Just my .02

Mike

ls2 bait

iTrader: (11)

i know i had issues with pushing water at 600rwhp with head bolts from arp. i switched to a head stud from arp and no problems at all after that. i think it has more to do with "clamping force" then actual torque.

Beaflag VonRathburg

iTrader: (176)

Thanks. I've been trying to study every single thing possible about LSx setups since I was 15 and looking for a car. Recently this has become a relevant issue with me as I plan on hitting my Formula with a rather large undisclosed amount of nitrous. I have no personal experience with pushing water so all I'm going by is what I've read and learned from working on other people's turbo cars.

You have to take into some of the things Tuff mentions right below your post. You have to look at everything setup in the engine. Yes, the iron blocks are more stable and forgiving with cylinder pressure, distortion, and controlling potential problems. The thing is though that if you have a built 408 with stock castings on them that is going to be the weak point. Your head decks are going to flex and your not going to be able to hit it as hard. Compression and how you're spraying your engine come into effect too. Much like your thread with the individual cylinder tuning. Every little thing comes into acount.

One problem though is that there's only so much we really can do. The lack of a siamesed bore is one thing that hurts us. The other is when your building an all out setup. You have to make a happy medium with large power adder cars. All of our blocks have the same bore spacing so there's no fixing that problem. Ideally you want to make as much power as you can off the bottle and then hit it with as much as it will take. The problem with that is ideally making more power on motor means more cubes. That means you're either having a larger stroke that pushes the pins further up in the pistons reducing compression height or you have a large bore that reduces cylinder wall thickness and allows more flex. On the flip side of the equation if you want and engine that'll take the largest hit you can hit it with is not going to make as much on motor alone. Either way you look at it 1+1=2.

The LSX block coming out is huge though for those looking to truely push the limits. The extra head bolts are huge and the extra material really helps with stability. When the tall deck version comes out we'll really be seeing some crazy combos. The problem in lies that not everyone has the capabilities or money to take every variable into account. There are some small things that do work though. Such as cleaning the block properly like 383 mentioned.

One thing that I plan on utilizing in my setup is Yamabond. I know it's been covered a few times before, but it's a liquid adhesive. Yamaha uses it on many of their applications instead of gaskets. It's super sticky. In extreme instances it allows the heads to actually lift without loosing coolant. Everyones done this when they were a kid so think of sticking glue between your hands and pushing them shut. Then, try to pull them apart. Certain areas are still sticking together and harder to pull apart. If you have that on a surface where its completely flat and allow the glue to dry it's going to be very difficult to remove. It's just an extra step that'll help out. Eastside has an old article in GMHTP about using it and it solving their problems.

I agree on the block thing. I think that's a commonly overlooked area as there's not much you can do about it. Everyone seems quick to blame the heads, gaskets, and fasteners. From what I've experienced too copper head gaskets are over rated. I'll take some nice cometics any day of the week over a copper gasket.

You bring up an interesting idea though with the nuts. I've never considered that. You could probably counteract that by having ARP make your studs and nuts both a little taller. That would allow the nuts to grab onto some extra threads and hopefully grasp a little better.

Block fill is certainly a viable option. A lot of street guys don't like it that much though. It's proven to work though. When my LT1 car gets a forged engine it will most certainly be half filled.

Eventually though you'll hit a point where you are truely pushing the limits. Look at some of the fast drag radial turbo cars. I know almost all of them pushed water when they were using 4 bolt per head setups. The thing is trying to use some sense and take every possible angle into account.

tuff

iTrader: (15)

If you have enough space for water to leak yamabond will not hold thousands of pounds of cylinder pressure.The market is still green and people need to change to a real block (LSX or WARHAWK) that will cure alot of problems.

Robert56

iTrader: (2)

Hey, tuff, good input, however, the guys like myself with lower compression, the iron block is bound to be a benefit wouldn't you say?
Anyway, i was trying to remember who I stole Nitrous Huffer from, and now I see, thanks. they really look nice with my DP Dry and Vic Jr...
Robert

Beaflag VonRathburg

iTrader: (176)

I agree, but if that force is spread out it has a greater chance of holding. Anything extra that can help and is cheap I'm using. I don't have the option to go out and spend two thousand dollars on a block now that I've already bought my whole setup.

383LQ4SS

iTrader: (33)

Damn...great discussion here. Ill need to reread in the AM so I can take it all in.

daniel6718

iTrader: (36)

good reading guys...
what would you guys reccomend for a boosted ls2 head bolt wise? arp studs?

tuff

iTrader: (15)

I agree that alot of people are not going to have a couple grand laying around for a new block but all im saying is that if people want to take advantage of big hp then the aftermarket blocks will have to fit the budget if you don't like running motors like a steam engine.Like ive said before the four bolt stuff i belive will work just scrap the the stock blocks.I have a new motor this year and it is a six bolt setup because i started from scratch.Just like we all have bought stuff and out grew it because we wanted to go faster,It will be the same thing with block to.Pusting water is not a fun thing and trying to contain it from getting under your tires at 150mph can make for a disaster of a pass.So depends on how you look at the cost of the block.I know im at the limit just for the simple fact that i run high compression and there is no way to contain the water due to high cylinder pressure.

tuff

iTrader: (15)

Well you will have to take that up with my lawer you theif!!!JK. Looks great those valve cover look badass.As for the low compression and spraying i feel that is the only way to go.High compression and 300shot is a kiss of death on a stock block, the cylinder walls are trying real hard to blow out.Look at it this way take a can fill it with air and you will see the can get fater and will get shorter to, just like the bore under extreme pressure the bore will try to push out due to no simese bore so if it is trying to push out the thin deck will have to come down due to the balloning of the bore.Just a thought