View Poll Results: What style kit would you go with?
Wet kit-single stage
7
10.14%
Wet kit-dual stage
15
21.74%
Direct port- single stage
47
68.12%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll
402+big shot build=what kit?
12-22-2008, 11:30 AM
#41
He has his opinions, but until he has something go down the track and put up 210+ mph on the board with a dry nitrous kit, I'll stick with the wet setups.
Dry has it's place and can work yes, but I'll stick with Steve Johnson's nitrous and tuneup advise over Roberts any day of the week.
Dry has it's place and can work yes, but I'll stick with Steve Johnson's nitrous and tuneup advise over Roberts any day of the week.
12-22-2008, 11:54 AM
#43
There is always an exception to every rule, and if you want to mess with anything enough you can make it work.
Can power be made with a dry system absolutely, can you make more power with a dry system spraying with the same #/size of nitrous jets as what a wet system will make uaing the same #/size nitrous jets, I don't believe that for a minute.
You need x amount of nitrous to burn x amount of fuel and you can only put X amount in a given cylinder, that is the limitation. How you get there is your own choice really.
Maybe I should have put the statement a little differently: There is a TON more nitrous tuning expertise with wet systems then there is with dry systems and if you want to be able to tap into the resources that are out there, you are better off doing what the majority are, for no reason other then there is more available help.
Can power be made with a dry system absolutely, can you make more power with a dry system spraying with the same #/size of nitrous jets as what a wet system will make uaing the same #/size nitrous jets, I don't believe that for a minute.
You need x amount of nitrous to burn x amount of fuel and you can only put X amount in a given cylinder, that is the limitation. How you get there is your own choice really.
Maybe I should have put the statement a little differently: There is a TON more nitrous tuning expertise with wet systems then there is with dry systems and if you want to be able to tap into the resources that are out there, you are better off doing what the majority are, for no reason other then there is more available help.
12-22-2008, 09:53 PM
#44
He has his opinions, but until he has something go down the track and put up 210+ mph on the board with a dry nitrous kit, I'll stick with the wet setups.
Dry has it's place and can work yes, but I'll stick with Steve Johnson's nitrous and tuneup advise over Roberts any day of the week.
Dry has it's place and can work yes, but I'll stick with Steve Johnson's nitrous and tuneup advise over Roberts any day of the week.
Thanks for putting my Friends name in the same sentence, as mine. At this point I don't know what it's about as I skipped the second page. Why don't you ask Steve whom knows about the dry technology on the LSx platform. I was born into NHRA class drag racing, as was he and his father.
Yes go to Steve for your full on dedicated race car system, many do. Might be the best in the business, that's for sure.
With over 30 years of nitrous use and more years drag racing, i feel that I have a fairly good grasp on nitrous. With that said, I have access to the biggest names in drag racing should I need information, and they are all over 40 and been doing it a long time.
I least I run and tune what I preach, lol. Some of the guys people listen to don't even have an LSx car, and besides that they imply that they are an expert in every field and car, lol, and that one just kills me. So the technology I dedicate myself to makes my knowledge base directed toward: street/strip, LSx/EFI, Dry Tech, Corvettes/GTO/F-bodies.
Anyway my rec would be going DP. The plate kits, regardless of which of the 5 manufactures you go to, are not the best route for a 300 hit. Do a search on this and you will see posts on the rear cylinders going lean, we can't afford this at 300 shots. Maybe a do it yourself DP? Or a plate kit with a reasonable shot for now with the idea in the back of your mind to use it later as your suggested 2nd stage.
It's no secert I like the dry tech and am currently doing some testing on dual stage plate kit and a 3rd stage on a button. All will be controlled by the stock PCM, as well as the custom progressive timing curve. Also, not this test and tune, but very soon my 1st stage Direct Port Dry will be progressed, the technology is here. Really there aren't a lot of good reasons to go wet anymore on the LSx platform IMO. the technology has surpassed the 40 year old carburetor based wet hits, IMO. More and more people are seeing that dry is the way to go. Why not use the modern technology of the PCM over the fixed mechanical jetting of a wet hit? Though, everything i just said can be used in the wet arena, as it certainly can be made to work. So if you like wet over dry you can still do a small wet plate hit and add a DP wet later.
Robert
12-22-2008, 10:05 PM
#45
CJ, just curious..... will a car that runs that much dry nitrous function on the street? I know your car is not made for the street although I do remember something about someone seeing you on the highway once. My question is: With that much dry nitrous and the tricks needed to tune for it with an injector greater than a 60lb and the stock PCM tuning tricks like SD etc.....
Will the car run normally off the spray without the tune WOT? or will it be extremely rich? I have no clue apparently and was just curious how streetable that much dry nitrous would be.
Thanks in advance.
Will the car run normally off the spray without the tune WOT? or will it be extremely rich? I have no clue apparently and was just curious how streetable that much dry nitrous would be.
Thanks in advance.
I don't think to many street cars are going to be running 500 hits wet or dry?
We are no longer limited to 60lb injectors, there are now 80lb'ers on the market that work with our stock PCMs. The dry technology for the average user has come quite far in the last couple years. We can know do big injectors, DP Dry, dual staging, progressing of the injectors, pull timing and more all with the stock PCM, no after market PCM needed. Then for the advanced guys more into the drag racing only, there are some great after market computers out there.
Robert
12-22-2008, 10:22 PM
#46
As for the dry setup that Guess who's running, that is not something I would suggest anyone start off with. That's alot to learn and is a really good way to hurt alot, and I mean ALOT of **** before you figure out what you're doing.
True, Guesswho has a full on drag set-up, but how is this different from having someone stay away from a dedicated big time race set-up wet hit?
Dry nitrous in general, because you are relying on the tune to take care of the nitrous IMO is risky for the beginner, better off to start with a wet system to learn how it works, what a single fuel jet change does to the tune, etc.etc. before trying to get the computer to compensate.
This makes absolutely no sense at all. really, think about. We/you rely on the tune every single day for your n/a needs? Why on earth, or how on earth would it be any different relying on the PCM for a dry hit? It's this kind of dated thinking that keeps the dry technology from getting off the ground. The difference is your using the stock PCM to fuel your dry hit with the injectors, same as you do every day you drive down the road n/a, and that causes what problem?
Plus, I look at it like this, the fastest nitrous cars are promod cars, and they're running 3 to 6 kits, and every one of them is wet. That being said, if the fastest nitrous cars out there are running wet systems, why are we trying to reinvent the wheel?
That's like saying the fastes planes are jets, so why aren't they all jet powered. WE are street/strip here and using GM computers, not spending $7 million a season on a dedicated race car which is so far from our platform.
True, Guesswho has a full on drag set-up, but how is this different from having someone stay away from a dedicated big time race set-up wet hit?
Dry nitrous in general, because you are relying on the tune to take care of the nitrous IMO is risky for the beginner, better off to start with a wet system to learn how it works, what a single fuel jet change does to the tune, etc.etc. before trying to get the computer to compensate.
This makes absolutely no sense at all. really, think about. We/you rely on the tune every single day for your n/a needs? Why on earth, or how on earth would it be any different relying on the PCM for a dry hit? It's this kind of dated thinking that keeps the dry technology from getting off the ground. The difference is your using the stock PCM to fuel your dry hit with the injectors, same as you do every day you drive down the road n/a, and that causes what problem?
Plus, I look at it like this, the fastest nitrous cars are promod cars, and they're running 3 to 6 kits, and every one of them is wet. That being said, if the fastest nitrous cars out there are running wet systems, why are we trying to reinvent the wheel?
That's like saying the fastes planes are jets, so why aren't they all jet powered. WE are street/strip here and using GM computers, not spending $7 million a season on a dedicated race car which is so far from our platform.
OK I see where the other post made it's entrance, lol. You say i have my opinions. Man everything I talk about I have done personally. I don't talk out my azz, I do what I preach. If I have a problem with something we are doing or trying for the first time, it is shared right here for others to learn from. OK, so I haven't put my dry stuff on a PRO Mod, but we here aren't racing pro mods, lol. Can you post some pictures of the street/strip car that is running pro-mod set-ups, lol? Now I am busting your *****, lol, but just teasing.
Ray, your not funny, lol...
Robert
12-23-2008, 04:45 AM
#47
My comment in regard to the promod stuff was the fact that if those guys could go faster another way (dry in this case) they would be doing it. They're not, for a reason.
As I stated earlier, you need x amount of fuel to make x amount of power, and x size cylinder can only burn so much fuel, and it takes x amount of nitrous to get that to happen, how you get there is your own choice. The theory behind the injector atomizing better then a nozzle/injector will do not believe, but this is a matter of opinion, much like the choice between what kind of kit you run.
I warn a newbie to nitrousto run a wet system, because that guarintee's added fuel in the attempt to make sure that things are safe. An experienced tuner can make a tune take care of hte n/a and nitrous stuff I understand that, but I feel that learning on a set system, what a jet change does, etc.etc is an easier way to teach someone the way things work, getting them to jump into the tuning at the same time for most guys is more then they can hand,e, it's easy to hurt something if you mess a tune up, toss nitrous into the picture, and you're really asking for trouble/broken parts.
Didn't you do something to the 408 due to forgetting to pull some timing once, if I remember correctly? That being said, I rest my case on that topic.
X amount of nitrous needed to burn x amount of fuel... that's the end all of it, and you can get there alot of different ways, how is your choice. Me, I'll stick with the wet stuff, listen to Steve Johnson and Ken Q. from Eastside's advise, both with vast knowledge that respect and will adhere to, for they're both been farther down the nitrous road then I'll ever travel.
As I stated earlier, you need x amount of fuel to make x amount of power, and x size cylinder can only burn so much fuel, and it takes x amount of nitrous to get that to happen, how you get there is your own choice. The theory behind the injector atomizing better then a nozzle/injector will do not believe, but this is a matter of opinion, much like the choice between what kind of kit you run.
I warn a newbie to nitrousto run a wet system, because that guarintee's added fuel in the attempt to make sure that things are safe. An experienced tuner can make a tune take care of hte n/a and nitrous stuff I understand that, but I feel that learning on a set system, what a jet change does, etc.etc is an easier way to teach someone the way things work, getting them to jump into the tuning at the same time for most guys is more then they can hand,e, it's easy to hurt something if you mess a tune up, toss nitrous into the picture, and you're really asking for trouble/broken parts.
Didn't you do something to the 408 due to forgetting to pull some timing once, if I remember correctly? That being said, I rest my case on that topic.
X amount of nitrous needed to burn x amount of fuel... that's the end all of it, and you can get there alot of different ways, how is your choice. Me, I'll stick with the wet stuff, listen to Steve Johnson and Ken Q. from Eastside's advise, both with vast knowledge that respect and will adhere to, for they're both been farther down the nitrous road then I'll ever travel.
12-26-2008, 04:19 PM
#48
My comment in regard to the promod stuff was the fact that if those guys could go faster another way (dry in this case) they would be doing it. They're not, for a reason.
As I stated earlier, you need x amount of fuel to make x amount of power, and x size cylinder can only burn so much fuel, and it takes x amount of nitrous to get that to happen, how you get there is your own choice. The theory behind the injector atomizing better then a nozzle/injector will do not believe, but this is a matter of opinion, much like the choice between what kind of kit you run.
I warn a newbie to nitrousto run a wet system, because that guarintee's added fuel in the attempt to make sure that things are safe. An experienced tuner can make a tune take care of hte n/a and nitrous stuff I understand that, but I feel that learning on a set system, what a jet change does, etc.etc is an easier way to teach someone the way things work, getting them to jump into the tuning at the same time for most guys is more then they can hand,e, it's easy to hurt something if you mess a tune up, toss nitrous into the picture, and you're really asking for trouble/broken parts.
Didn't you do something to the 408 due to forgetting to pull some timing once, if I remember correctly? That being said, I rest my case on that topic.
X amount of nitrous needed to burn x amount of fuel... that's the end all of it, and you can get there alot of different ways, how is your choice. Me, I'll stick with the wet stuff, listen to Steve Johnson and Ken Q. from Eastside's advise, both with vast knowledge that respect and will adhere to, for they're both been farther down the nitrous road then I'll ever travel.
As I stated earlier, you need x amount of fuel to make x amount of power, and x size cylinder can only burn so much fuel, and it takes x amount of nitrous to get that to happen, how you get there is your own choice. The theory behind the injector atomizing better then a nozzle/injector will do not believe, but this is a matter of opinion, much like the choice between what kind of kit you run.
I warn a newbie to nitrousto run a wet system, because that guarintee's added fuel in the attempt to make sure that things are safe. An experienced tuner can make a tune take care of hte n/a and nitrous stuff I understand that, but I feel that learning on a set system, what a jet change does, etc.etc is an easier way to teach someone the way things work, getting them to jump into the tuning at the same time for most guys is more then they can hand,e, it's easy to hurt something if you mess a tune up, toss nitrous into the picture, and you're really asking for trouble/broken parts.
Didn't you do something to the 408 due to forgetting to pull some timing once, if I remember correctly? That being said, I rest my case on that topic.
X amount of nitrous needed to burn x amount of fuel... that's the end all of it, and you can get there alot of different ways, how is your choice. Me, I'll stick with the wet stuff, listen to Steve Johnson and Ken Q. from Eastside's advise, both with vast knowledge that respect and will adhere to, for they're both been farther down the nitrous road then I'll ever travel.
Well you choose to listen to Steve Johnson, lol, well here is the system that he chose to high light his business. It's a 5-stage DRY system using injectors for fueling and is an EFI platform. Might even be Pro Mod, lol. Most of the cars that he deals with are old school carburetor style and thus the leaning toward wet. Even there, many are starting to go late EFI technology as the old dogs learn new tricks.
http://ywnv.vidiac.com/video/2edc326...080176ef3f.htm
Now if you want to tell someone that in your opinion that wet is a better starter kit, well that is up to you. However, the box stock wet kits you can not dial in the exact a/f ratio you want, period end of story. Unless you have a nice hand full of extra jets this just won't happen. The new generation of dry plate kits allow 5hp increase or decrease in a/f ratio out of the box, so dialing in an exact, repeatable a/f ratio is a breeze. Also, don't forget these same dry kits allow timing pull to be a breeze also, so that is another reason that makes it easier to tune than a wet kit, IMO.
The number one reason for failures in the wet hits is the fuel solenoid sticking closed or partial. the dry eliminates this. You talk about which is better for atomization of the fuel, well is nozzles had some sort of benefit over injectors I think the engineers at GM would have realized this by now. The best place and method to inject fuel on top of the intake valve is the stock injectors, end of story.
You do realize that the nozzle system/kits for the LSx platform was a stop gap measure by the nitrous companies? when the LSx hit the market, the companies did not understand the PCM. So they took a single or dual nozzle from a Direct Port kit and put it in the CAI neck. very simple and it worked seemingly OK. then NOS started the 5177 and dry technology was born for the LSx. I remember some of the early nozzle kits were limited to like a 150hp hit. do you know why? it was because a Direct port nozzle did not need to flow anymore than that for a single cylinder. Of course now they all have developed single/duel nozzles that can flow more. But my contention is still there that the wet nozzle style of kits is dated technology and there are better ways of spraying our dry intakes.
I do enjoy these types of debates. they surely put more information out there for the newbies than any other style thread. Have you had a chance yet to actually do and set-up a dry hit on your car? I believe my input has merit as I was a wet user for 25 years prior to going dry. If we really look around, there are many guys doing dry in numerous ways and it's catching on for certain.
Robert
01-01-2009, 02:38 PM
#50
Robert
