Cam Talk
05-12-2005, 12:42 PM
#23
Originally Posted by Rokko
Cool. I think I'm going to go with the Crane Duals for springs and titanium retainers. They are "supposed" to be harmonics free and wont cause knock retard around 5500 r's like some are *supposed* to do. I dunno, maybe it's all gimmicks but some of it makes sense. Specially in an all aluminum harmonic chamber type motor with the knock sensors in the damned valley instead of between the cylinder banks.
Cam and headers sometime this summer!
Cam and headers sometime this summer!
05-12-2005, 12:44 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Rokko
That is the goal!
Last edited by 99blancoSS; 05-12-2005 at 12:55 PM.
05-12-2005, 01:01 PM
#25
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just for comparison:
Crane Duals, 112lb @ seat, 352lb open and coil bind @ 1.045
Comp 918's, 130lb @ seat, 318lb open and coil bind @ 1.085
Personally, I think the cranes would do a better job. Not as much slammin of the valve seats and better able to follow the lobe profile at high speed cycling.
Thoughts?
Crane Duals, 112lb @ seat, 352lb open and coil bind @ 1.045
Comp 918's, 130lb @ seat, 318lb open and coil bind @ 1.085
Personally, I think the cranes would do a better job. Not as much slammin of the valve seats and better able to follow the lobe profile at high speed cycling.
Thoughts?
05-12-2005, 01:20 PM
#26
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The good thing about the Cranes is as you said, softer closing rates so longer valve seat life. But with the higher open pressure, they would be more likely to go dead after a year. But they will follow an agressive cam lobe.....
Personally I think the 918s are over-rated. You can get Manley 1423s WITH ti retainers from Scoggin Dickey for the price of the 918s alone. Certainly good enough for your application. And then as mentioned, buy some HS rockers that Nasty's is having a GP on. But that's my opinion.
Personally I think the 918s are over-rated. You can get Manley 1423s WITH ti retainers from Scoggin Dickey for the price of the 918s alone. Certainly good enough for your application. And then as mentioned, buy some HS rockers that Nasty's is having a GP on. But that's my opinion.
05-12-2005, 01:27 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by WAHUSKER
The good thing about the Cranes is as you said, softer closing rates so longer valve seat life. But with the higher open pressure, they would be more likely to go dead after a year. But they will follow an agressive cam lobe.....
Personally I think the 918s are over-rated. You can get Manley 1423s WITH ti retainers from Scoggin Dickey for the price of the 918s alone. Certainly good enough for your application. And then as mentioned, buy some HS rockers that Nasty's is having a GP on. But that's my opinion.
Personally I think the 918s are over-rated. You can get Manley 1423s WITH ti retainers from Scoggin Dickey for the price of the 918s alone. Certainly good enough for your application. And then as mentioned, buy some HS rockers that Nasty's is having a GP on. But that's my opinion.
Didn't Douggy get the Manleys?? That is an enticing option as well.
05-12-2005, 01:54 PM
#28
Originally Posted by WAHUSKER
The good thing about the Cranes is as you said, softer closing rates so longer valve seat life. But with the higher open pressure, they would be more likely to go dead after a year. But they will follow an agressive cam lobe.....
Personally I think the 918s are over-rated. You can get Manley 1423s WITH ti retainers from Scoggin Dickey for the price of the 918s alone. Certainly good enough for your application. And then as mentioned, buy some HS rockers that Nasty's is having a GP on. But that's my opinion.
Personally I think the 918s are over-rated. You can get Manley 1423s WITH ti retainers from Scoggin Dickey for the price of the 918s alone. Certainly good enough for your application. And then as mentioned, buy some HS rockers that Nasty's is having a GP on. But that's my opinion.
And honestly the best way to go about this is to take your cam specs to either TR, TSP, FMS, MTI or one of the others and go with one of thier packages cam swap packages. Its usually cheaper than buying it seperately. They custom grind a cam for the same money but you get the package with it and its cheaper in the long run. Your going to need more than just a cam and springs. You'll need gaskets and such as well. The package deals are usually cheaper.
05-12-2005, 02:00 PM
#29
Well, no matter what springs he gets, it sounds like he's getting some new rockers... so whether or not 918s are a better investment than dual springs is a moot point.
As for the price on Comps, show me where I can buy Comp 918s with titanium retainers for $215 (which is what the Manleys with titanium retainers costs), and I'll be impressed.
As for the price on Comps, show me where I can buy Comp 918s with titanium retainers for $215 (which is what the Manleys with titanium retainers costs), and I'll be impressed.
05-12-2005, 02:07 PM
#30
Why titanium retainers with this type of lift? Waste of money. As far as Manleys some would say they arent as good as Comps. Honestly. Is it just the fact that someone wants to say titanium retainers in thier description? We're talking about less than .570 of lift.. tit ret are not needed here, factorys are fine in this application. Ya
lighter weight I know, but for this application?
lighter weight I know, but for this application?
05-12-2005, 02:08 PM
#31
I got mine 918's w\ti's for 260 which I am guessing is better than most could get them (thats with shipping)
Funny how the topic of behive vs duals is so hotly debated, I don't think you can go wrong either way. I just like the idea of a light valvetrain makes sense to me. I don't think spring choice is going to matter with that cam.
Funny how the topic of behive vs duals is so hotly debated, I don't think you can go wrong either way. I just like the idea of a light valvetrain makes sense to me. I don't think spring choice is going to matter with that cam.
05-12-2005, 02:49 PM
#32
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I could give a rats *** what it says in my description. Since it's one of the larger ones on the site. All I care about is peace of mind, reliability and HP.
Why not go with titanium retainers? What is the deciding lift number that makes the decision to use titanium over steel? By that logic I could just as well use Inconel or Solid Mercury retainers and show no difference in performance? It isn't the gross lift that should make the decision, it's the way the lobe is designed to slam the valve open and hold it open for the most amount of time then slam it shut is where the titanium retainers should show their merit.
.550 is a decent amount of lift compared to most stock engines. Stock lift is .467, this would be an increase of almost a hundred thou, and more if I go with something over the stock 1.7 ratio rockers.
Why not go with titanium retainers? What is the deciding lift number that makes the decision to use titanium over steel? By that logic I could just as well use Inconel or Solid Mercury retainers and show no difference in performance? It isn't the gross lift that should make the decision, it's the way the lobe is designed to slam the valve open and hold it open for the most amount of time then slam it shut is where the titanium retainers should show their merit.
.550 is a decent amount of lift compared to most stock engines. Stock lift is .467, this would be an increase of almost a hundred thou, and more if I go with something over the stock 1.7 ratio rockers.
05-12-2005, 03:01 PM
#33
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Titanium retainters are the only thing to run, why not. Its not a waste of money. Anytime you take weight off the valvetrain it is a good thing. They have nothing to do with reliabilty. I have rebuilt a lot of big race engine, and have never, I mean never seen a retainer cause an ebgine falure.
I would do the ti retainers rick, it is a good idea with any cam. Their is no set lift number were you need them It is just a very good idea to use them.
Just for a point a refrence, the last 383 we di had a litlle bitty towing cam in it and ya now what it got ti retainers.
I would do the ti retainers rick, it is a good idea with any cam. Their is no set lift number were you need them It is just a very good idea to use them.
Just for a point a refrence, the last 383 we di had a litlle bitty towing cam in it and ya now what it got ti retainers.
05-12-2005, 03:19 PM
#34
There are plenty of people who say 918s and stock retainers are "fine" for my cam... yet I chose to "waste" my money on duals and titanium retainers. To me, it's well worth it for a little more piece of mind. Even just a few grams of weight off those springs at 6k rpms helps out quite a bit toward making sure valve float never happens... especially when the springs are at 20k, 30k, and 40k miles old and spring fatigue becomes a problem.
Did I "need" a driveshaft rated to 1000 hp? A clutch rated to 650hp? A 12 bolt with c-clip eliminators, a stud kit, and 33 spline axles? Did I need a re-spec'd T-56? No, of course not... but then again, when I dump my clutch at 6k on slicks, I am not worried in the least of something in that drivetrain breaking apart on me. I'd rather go for what some people view as overkill than "just good enough."
Besides, I didn't see anywhere in Rokko's posts where he mentioned this was a budget build-up and needed to get away with a cam install spending the least amount of money possible... so whether or not anyone thinks he's "wasting" money is irrelavent.
Did I "need" a driveshaft rated to 1000 hp? A clutch rated to 650hp? A 12 bolt with c-clip eliminators, a stud kit, and 33 spline axles? Did I need a re-spec'd T-56? No, of course not... but then again, when I dump my clutch at 6k on slicks, I am not worried in the least of something in that drivetrain breaking apart on me. I'd rather go for what some people view as overkill than "just good enough."
Besides, I didn't see anywhere in Rokko's posts where he mentioned this was a budget build-up and needed to get away with a cam install spending the least amount of money possible... so whether or not anyone thinks he's "wasting" money is irrelavent.
Last edited by Tranzor_Z28; 05-12-2005 at 03:29 PM.
05-12-2005, 03:23 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by Tranzor_Z28
There are plenty of people who say 918s and stock retainers are "fine" for my cam... yet I chose to "waste" my money on duals and titanium retainers. To me, it's well worth it for a little more piece of mind. Even just a few grams of weight off those springs at 6k rpms helps out quite a bit toward making sure valve float never happens... even when the springs are at 20k, 30k, and 40k miles old.
Did I "need" a driveshaft rated to 1000 hp? A clutch rated to 650hp? A 12 bolt with c-clip eliminators, a stud kit, and 33 spline axles? Did I need a re-spec'd T-56? No, of course not... but then again, when I dump my clutch at 6k on slicks, I am not worried in the least of something in that drivetrain breaking apart on me. I'd rather go for what some people view as overkill than "just good enough."
Besides, I didn't see anywhere in Rokko's posts where he mentioned this was a budget build-up and needed to get away with a cam install spending the least amount of money possible... so whether or not anyone thinks he's "wasting" money is irrelavent.
Did I "need" a driveshaft rated to 1000 hp? A clutch rated to 650hp? A 12 bolt with c-clip eliminators, a stud kit, and 33 spline axles? Did I need a re-spec'd T-56? No, of course not... but then again, when I dump my clutch at 6k on slicks, I am not worried in the least of something in that drivetrain breaking apart on me. I'd rather go for what some people view as overkill than "just good enough."
Besides, I didn't see anywhere in Rokko's posts where he mentioned this was a budget build-up and needed to get away with a cam install spending the least amount of money possible... so whether or not anyone thinks he's "wasting" money is irrelavent.
I agree 100% jason. I love Nowing that when i drop the hammer, nothing is coming apart.
05-12-2005, 04:38 PM
#37
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There are many reasons / justifications for making ANY decision. It's about your personal comfort zone. I run ti retainers on my .555 lift cam. Why? Because I can. And I think it makes sense when I spin the motor to 6700rpm. Same thing with my HS rockers. Can the stockers take it? Yes, but these are better. Lighter & stronger is always a good combination for racing.
Now which of your choices is the best? That is a matter of opinion. None of them are a bad choice. But which path gets you where you want to go, & gives you more bang for the buck? It's kinda like Jessels. Would I like a set? Hell yes! Do I need them? No, my HS's work fine for my setup. So I spent the other $400 on valve covers....
Now which of your choices is the best? That is a matter of opinion. None of them are a bad choice. But which path gets you where you want to go, & gives you more bang for the buck? It's kinda like Jessels. Would I like a set? Hell yes! Do I need them? No, my HS's work fine for my setup. So I spent the other $400 on valve covers....
05-12-2005, 08:17 PM
#39
On the cam listed I would do nothing more then the SDPC Spring kit for $208. I have had way to many problems with comp stuff and there spring recomendations suck...don't they Bill springer
I have alot better luck with other manufactures
OH yeah! Two things come to mind some here are missing
1st? Valve train can NEVER be to light and 2nd? Valve spring pressure are only to high when they are collapsing the lifters Anyone telling you different is full of ****
I am running 165 on the seat and 470 open PLUS a rev kit! To bad they do not make one for the LS base engines yet(that I have heard of). would have kept Boyces cam alive!
I have alot better luck with other manufactures
OH yeah! Two things come to mind some here are missing
1st? Valve train can NEVER be to light and 2nd? Valve spring pressure are only to high when they are collapsing the lifters
Anyone telling you different is full of ****I am running 165 on the seat and 470 open PLUS a rev kit! To bad they do not make one for the LS base engines yet(that I have heard of). would have kept Boyces cam alive!
05-13-2005, 02:18 AM
#40
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I have seen one before elis, just can't remember who makes it. Those things can be lifesavers.
I also agree with your points on valvetrain. ti retainers wil be good for about 2-300 extra rpm on top, might not sound like much, but I can tell you that sometimes it is needed.
Rick i would use whatever valve springs cam motion recomends, and thats all. Trust me they now alot more than 905 of the sponsers about cams and making engins run. Most of the fastest cars on the planet run there cams. I Know for a fact that most of the top outlaw racers run cams from them in there 100k doller big blocks.
I also agree with your points on valvetrain. ti retainers wil be good for about 2-300 extra rpm on top, might not sound like much, but I can tell you that sometimes it is needed.
Rick i would use whatever valve springs cam motion recomends, and thats all. Trust me they now alot more than 905 of the sponsers about cams and making engins run. Most of the fastest cars on the planet run there cams. I Know for a fact that most of the top outlaw racers run cams from them in there 100k doller big blocks.