Need some help fending off a planned race!!! (long)
05-10-2006, 06:42 AM
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Need some help fending off a planned race!!! (long) Okay, here is the situation.
A good good friend of mine and I have been talking about setting this race up after our deployment for quite some time now. And he has been in touch with a specific Cobra tuner with talks of tuning to his car to beat mine. My friend told his tuner ET's and MPH I'm running! So I need some help to ensure I beat him. The only rule is I cannot spray on him. I have to run him all motor!
He has an 03' Cobra, and it currently has only an SLP loudmouth catback exhaust. He is going to purchase a 2.93" pulley w/ tensioner pully, a custom tune he is getting from some Cobra tuner, and nitto 555 drag radials that he is going to run on his factory rims.
I have P&P LS1 heads that have been milled (10.8:1 SCR) bigger valves, comp cams with 228/228 .571/.571 at 112 lobe sep, ported oil pump, LG long tube headers with no cats, B&B PRT cat back exhaust, Hurst short throw shifter, mcleod twin disc clutch, carbon fiber driveshaft, with a stage III DTS rear differential (3:90 gears), being thrown to the ground using 315 BFG DR's on 17inch ZR1 wheels. I currently trap 119.50mph and have ran a best of 11.88 with a shitty 1.79 60'. I obviously still need to learn how to launch this car.
I also have an LS6 intake manifold sitting on the garage floor (thanks Mark) that should help minimally, but with the money I have made on the deployment I plan on buying a nitrous system and all the necessary safety equipment including a 5 point roll bar. But I can't use it.
The only thing that will help is the LS6 intake manifold!
I figure I can take him if I learn how to launch my Car and shift more aggressively. I ran my 11.88 while speed shifting at only 6000 rpms. I was running consistant 12.0-12.1's shifting regularly (lifting the gas pedal between shifts) up to around 6600rpms on crappy 2.0 60' times!
What should his Cobra trap after he gets the work done and after his tune? And what can I do to ensure I beat him?
Oh and I almost forgot..........This race will happen at the drag strip. Got to keep it legal.
A good good friend of mine and I have been talking about setting this race up after our deployment for quite some time now. And he has been in touch with a specific Cobra tuner with talks of tuning to his car to beat mine. My friend told his tuner ET's and MPH I'm running! So I need some help to ensure I beat him. The only rule is I cannot spray on him. I have to run him all motor!
He has an 03' Cobra, and it currently has only an SLP loudmouth catback exhaust. He is going to purchase a 2.93" pulley w/ tensioner pully, a custom tune he is getting from some Cobra tuner, and nitto 555 drag radials that he is going to run on his factory rims.
I have P&P LS1 heads that have been milled (10.8:1 SCR) bigger valves, comp cams with 228/228 .571/.571 at 112 lobe sep, ported oil pump, LG long tube headers with no cats, B&B PRT cat back exhaust, Hurst short throw shifter, mcleod twin disc clutch, carbon fiber driveshaft, with a stage III DTS rear differential (3:90 gears), being thrown to the ground using 315 BFG DR's on 17inch ZR1 wheels. I currently trap 119.50mph and have ran a best of 11.88 with a shitty 1.79 60'. I obviously still need to learn how to launch this car.
I also have an LS6 intake manifold sitting on the garage floor (thanks Mark) that should help minimally, but with the money I have made on the deployment I plan on buying a nitrous system and all the necessary safety equipment including a 5 point roll bar. But I can't use it.
The only thing that will help is the LS6 intake manifold!I figure I can take him if I learn how to launch my Car and shift more aggressively. I ran my 11.88 while speed shifting at only 6000 rpms. I was running consistant 12.0-12.1's shifting regularly (lifting the gas pedal between shifts) up to around 6600rpms on crappy 2.0 60' times!
What should his Cobra trap after he gets the work done and after his tune? And what can I do to ensure I beat him?
Oh and I almost forgot..........This race will happen at the drag strip. Got to keep it legal.
05-10-2006, 08:14 AM
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Not to worry Jon. Remember last weekend when Ellis scared the life out of that Mustang? (sorry John!) Anyway, you do still have some bolt-ons you can do that will help. Have you thought of that? I don't see things like a ported TB, or roller rockers, or a Mezierre H2O pump listed for your car. Each one of those was worth a 10th or better on my car.
And as impressive as trap speeds might be, they don't mean much at the track. For instance Tyler traps pretty close to what I do, but I run close to a full second faster than he does. Or about 10 car lengths if you're left handed. Not trying to pick on the Ford guys, just trying to tell you to focus on lowering your ET. That is what will win the race for you.
The bad news is improving your 60' is where you will find the answer. But since you have IRS you are limited. The good news is the Cobra has the same limitation. So I'd suggest you work on your shifts & perfect your tune. And buy more mods. Tho 11.88 probably has him covered, since Tyler has trouble running faster than that with his setup.
And as impressive as trap speeds might be, they don't mean much at the track. For instance Tyler traps pretty close to what I do, but I run close to a full second faster than he does. Or about 10 car lengths if you're left handed. Not trying to pick on the Ford guys, just trying to tell you to focus on lowering your ET. That is what will win the race for you.
The bad news is improving your 60' is where you will find the answer. But since you have IRS you are limited. The good news is the Cobra has the same limitation. So I'd suggest you work on your shifts & perfect your tune. And buy more mods. Tho 11.88 probably has him covered, since Tyler has trouble running faster than that with his setup.
05-10-2006, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by WAHUSKER
Not to worry Jon. Remember last weekend when Ellis scared the life out of that Mustang? (sorry John!) Anyway, you do still have some bolt-ons you can do that will help. Have you thought of that? I don't see things like a ported TB, or roller rockers, or a Mezierre H2O pump listed for your car. Each one of those was worth a 10th or better on my car.
And as impressive as trap speeds might be, they don't mean much at the track. For instance Tyler traps pretty close to what I do, but I run close to a full second faster than he does. Or about 10 car lengths if you're left handed. Not trying to pick on the Ford guys, just trying to tell you to focus on lowering your ET. That is what will win the race for you.
The bad news is improving your 60' is where you will find the answer. But since you have IRS you are limited. The good news is the Cobra has the same limitation. So I'd suggest you work on your shifts & perfect your tune. And buy more mods. Tho 11.88 probably has him covered, since Tyler has trouble running faster than that with his setup.
And as impressive as trap speeds might be, they don't mean much at the track. For instance Tyler traps pretty close to what I do, but I run close to a full second faster than he does. Or about 10 car lengths if you're left handed. Not trying to pick on the Ford guys, just trying to tell you to focus on lowering your ET. That is what will win the race for you.
The bad news is improving your 60' is where you will find the answer. But since you have IRS you are limited. The good news is the Cobra has the same limitation. So I'd suggest you work on your shifts & perfect your tune. And buy more mods. Tho 11.88 probably has him covered, since Tyler has trouble running faster than that with his setup.
How difficult will it be to install roller rockers. I would imagine it would be pretty easy!
My rear differential should be able to handle slicks........maybe I can borrow some when the time comes!
Or would it just be better to practice on my current setup and perfect my launch to the best of my ability?
05-10-2006, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by 00Vette
I think I'll try and get a my TB ported when I get home and some roller rockers. I don't have neither. But I do agree I have more left in my launch which will help my ET's. Robert has cut 1.6x's with his BFG's and I have a way stronger rear end with gears!
How difficult will it be to install roller rockers. I would imagine it would be pretty easy!
My rear differential should be able to handle slicks........maybe I can borrow some when the time comes! Or would it just be better to practice on my current setup and perfect my launch to the best of my ability?
How difficult will it be to install roller rockers. I would imagine it would be pretty easy!
My rear differential should be able to handle slicks........maybe I can borrow some when the time comes!
Or would it just be better to practice on my current setup and perfect my launch to the best of my ability?
05-10-2006, 12:15 PM
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I documented a 15hp gain, and a 1/10th improvemnt just by adding roller rockers on my cammed motor. But buy GOOD ones if you do it Jon. (Morrels or Jessels) I bought Harlan Sharps & they started to fall apart after 5,000 miles. So I went back to stockers, and installed a Mez elec pump & lost nothing (meaning it was worth 15hp & a 10th) An U/D pulley did nothing for my car except raise the engine temp 5* (prior to the Mez).
As for the 90/90 setup, I think that's too much for a stock cube motor. But to each his own. My 78mm LSX intake added another 15hp when some people thought it would either do nothing or add 30hp. Sometimes you just gotta try **** to see if it works. I tried just about every bolt-on, AND documented what worked & what didn't. I also spent a lot of time listening to guys that know their **** (like Ellis & Don & Bill & Ryan & Jimbob &.....)
As for the 90/90 setup, I think that's too much for a stock cube motor. But to each his own. My 78mm LSX intake added another 15hp when some people thought it would either do nothing or add 30hp. Sometimes you just gotta try **** to see if it works. I tried just about every bolt-on, AND documented what worked & what didn't. I also spent a lot of time listening to guys that know their **** (like Ellis & Don & Bill & Ryan & Jimbob &.....)
05-10-2006, 01:39 PM
#7
ive never heard of the rockers adding power. that is unless instead of a 1.7 he goes to a 1.8 which i wouldnt do with a cam and milled heads.
actually on my friends trex power the sharp rockers did not like to be spun to 7300 rpm at all. my stockers have been doing it for 3 years. but i may be wrong im not an expert just adding an opinion is all.
actually on my friends trex power the sharp rockers did not like to be spun to 7300 rpm at all. my stockers have been doing it for 3 years. but i may be wrong im not an expert just adding an opinion is all.
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05-10-2006, 01:57 PM
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Your friend is going to roast his tires coming out of the hole. That's the good news.
I think you need to work on traction/launching rather than adding power. You should be able to pull 1.7 60' times pretty easily with your set up (as far as your car goes). Spend the money on traction......aka slicks/drs and a line lock. You may gain a 10th by adding more power, but you can easily gain 2 tenths or more by improving your traction.
When I was racing regularly, I gained .8 seconds by just practicing, I didn't change a thing on the car!
Good luck.
I think you need to work on traction/launching rather than adding power. You should be able to pull 1.7 60' times pretty easily with your set up (as far as your car goes). Spend the money on traction......aka slicks/drs and a line lock. You may gain a 10th by adding more power, but you can easily gain 2 tenths or more by improving your traction.
When I was racing regularly, I gained .8 seconds by just practicing, I didn't change a thing on the car!
Good luck.
05-10-2006, 02:08 PM
#9
Reaction times matter a ton, especially when you're talking about two cars that should run similar times...
If you line up at the track with him and he's not experienced with the tree, you should destroy him out of the hole... not like I'm great on the tree, but when I run against people who aren't experienced track racers, I can totally notice the difference. I don't know how many times I've glanced at the other car right after I launch and they're still sitting there! Most inexperienced racers will go on the green, rather than the last yellow.
And one point here... why can't you spray him? Afterall, he's not running you "all motor" as he has a supercharger... he has forced induction, why can't you? To me, it's run what you brung.
If you line up at the track with him and he's not experienced with the tree, you should destroy him out of the hole... not like I'm great on the tree, but when I run against people who aren't experienced track racers, I can totally notice the difference. I don't know how many times I've glanced at the other car right after I launch and they're still sitting there! Most inexperienced racers will go on the green, rather than the last yellow.
And one point here... why can't you spray him? Afterall, he's not running you "all motor" as he has a supercharger... he has forced induction, why can't you? To me, it's run what you brung.
05-10-2006, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tranzor_Z28
And one point here... why can't you spray him? Afterall, he's not running you "all motor" as he has a supercharger... he has forced induction, why can't you? To me, it's run what you brung.
Or maybe because his buddy just doesn't want to get outran. 
05-10-2006, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by WAHUSKER
I documented a 15hp gain, and a 1/10th improvemnt just by adding roller rockers on my cammed motor. But buy GOOD ones if you do it Jon. (Morrels or Jessels) I bought Harlan Sharps & they started to fall apart after 5,000 miles. So I went back to stockers, and installed a Mez elec pump & lost nothing (meaning it was worth 15hp & a 10th)
Originally Posted by WAHUSKER
An U/D pulley did nothing for my car except raise the engine temp 5* (prior to the Mez).
Originally Posted by WAHUSKER
As for the 90/90 setup, I think that's too much for a stock cube motor. But to each his own. My 78mm LSX intake added another 15hp when some people thought it would either do nothing or add 30hp. Sometimes you just gotta try **** to see if it works. I tried just about every bolt-on, AND documented what worked & what didn't. I also spent a lot of time listening to guys that know their **** (like Ellis & Don & Bill & Ryan & Jimbob &.....)
This used to be theoretically believed, but it's pretty much a given that you'll see 20rwhp on an M6 with these additions.
05-10-2006, 02:28 PM
#13
Heh... I'm thinking if you have to run him "all motor" he should run you "all motor". Tell him to remove the supercharger... or if he doesn't want to do that, then you get your nitrous.
05-10-2006, 02:33 PM
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These Cobras are all top end.
Also consider the weight advantage you have from the get go regardless of power.
I'm starting to learn to launch from this IRS, but regardless the thing is a pig out of the 1/8th until it really opens up. Only two tenths really I can drop before being kicked out (some of that can be made up in shifting as well) and I'm in 98% daily driver street trim (just Nittos air'd down to 15psi).
My best trap thus far has been 123, from 501rwhp but ET only 11.7.
That said, I don't think I can get a whole lot more out of the car without working with the suspension, perhaps some skinnies. Basically a drag racing suspension. If he doesn't have that, you're pretty well off unless you "race from a roll".
Of course later in the MPH zone drag comes into play but ...
Man. I just need a solid, auto and that whipple and you're all toast.
Also consider the weight advantage you have from the get go regardless of power.
I'm starting to learn to launch from this IRS, but regardless the thing is a pig out of the 1/8th until it really opens up. Only two tenths really I can drop before being kicked out (some of that can be made up in shifting as well) and I'm in 98% daily driver street trim (just Nittos air'd down to 15psi).
My best trap thus far has been 123, from 501rwhp but ET only 11.7.
That said, I don't think I can get a whole lot more out of the car without working with the suspension, perhaps some skinnies. Basically a drag racing suspension. If he doesn't have that, you're pretty well off unless you "race from a roll".
Of course later in the MPH zone drag comes into play but ...
Man. I just need a solid, auto and that whipple and you're all toast.
05-10-2006, 02:34 PM
#15
90% of any drag race at the track is in the 60'.
you need to make your car come out of the hole hard. find out what the drag race vette guys are doing, and do that... im thinking some kind of loose front shock, and big slicks should get you started... and once you're hooking that (should be around high 1.5s by then) then look at more power. right now, you're not even using what you have.. and if you sprayed on it, you would jsut spin the tires so hard, that you'll go SLOWER.
you need to make your car come out of the hole hard. find out what the drag race vette guys are doing, and do that... im thinking some kind of loose front shock, and big slicks should get you started... and once you're hooking that (should be around high 1.5s by then) then look at more power. right now, you're not even using what you have.. and if you sprayed on it, you would jsut spin the tires so hard, that you'll go SLOWER.
05-10-2006, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tylerb59
These Cobras are all top end.
Also consider the weight advantage you have from the get go regardless of power.
I'm starting to learn to launch from this IRS, but regardless the thing is a pig out of the 1/8th until it really opens up. Only two tenths really I can drop before being kicked out (some of that can be made up in shifting as well) and I'm in 98% daily driver street trim (just Nittos air'd down to 15psi).
My best trap thus far has been 123, from 501rwhp but ET only 11.7.
That said, I don't think I can get a whole lot more out of the car without working with the suspension, perhaps some skinnies. Basically a drag racing suspension. If he doesn't have that, you're pretty well off unless you "race from a roll".
Of course later in the MPH zone drag comes into play but ...
Also consider the weight advantage you have from the get go regardless of power.
I'm starting to learn to launch from this IRS, but regardless the thing is a pig out of the 1/8th until it really opens up. Only two tenths really I can drop before being kicked out (some of that can be made up in shifting as well) and I'm in 98% daily driver street trim (just Nittos air'd down to 15psi).
My best trap thus far has been 123, from 501rwhp but ET only 11.7.
That said, I don't think I can get a whole lot more out of the car without working with the suspension, perhaps some skinnies. Basically a drag racing suspension. If he doesn't have that, you're pretty well off unless you "race from a roll".
Of course later in the MPH zone drag comes into play but ...
05-10-2006, 02:41 PM
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http://www.hardcore50.com/members/60foots.htm
Why is the 60' ET so important?
by Mark Towslee - www.prestage.com
If you've done any drag racing, you've probably noticed that racers seem obsessed with 60' ET's. There's a good reason for this. The first 60' of the track set the stage for the rest of the run and has a huge effect on the ability to "run the number" when bracket racing. Many beginning racers seem more concerned with top end mph thinking that if the car goes faster at the end of the track they'll pick up ET. However, top end speed isn't really as important as it first appears.
Here's why - Think about the percentage of time that you spend traveling the first 60' compared to the last 60' and you'll see that you spend a relatively large amount of *time* in the first 60' of the track. Now lets take that out to 330' and the compare it to the last 330 feet of the track ...
I went through some timeslips and found a car that ran 10.21 in the 1/4 mile. Now lets do some analysis:
60' = 1.470 or a total of 14% of the total ET
330' = 4.167 or a total of 41% of the total ET
So, you travel 25% of the total distance and you've spent 40% of your total ET to travel that first 25% of the track.
Now lets look at the 1000' to 1320' time compared to the 330' ET:
To get from the 1000' timer to the 1320' timer it took 1.73 seconds (10.213 1320' ET - 8.48 1000' ET) for a total of 17% of the total time. You've only spent 17% of your total ET to travel the last 25% of the distance.
So, as you can see, it takes almost as much *time* to travel the last 320' as it does the first 60' of the track and it takes 2.4 times longer to travel the first 330 feet as it does to travel the last 330' feet - actually 320' feet but its close enough for this comparison.
This is why you gain ET by concentrating on the first few feet of the track. You spend a proportionately greater deal of *time* in the first few feet and since ET is *time* it's easier to gain ET by concentrating on the launch.
From my own personal experience: My car picked up almost .3 in the 60' and about .4 overall when I switched from a 2500 converter to a 3500, MPH actually stayed about the same. It would have taken an awful lot of MPH at the top end to pick up that much ET.
by Mark Towslee - www.prestage.com
If you've done any drag racing, you've probably noticed that racers seem obsessed with 60' ET's. There's a good reason for this. The first 60' of the track set the stage for the rest of the run and has a huge effect on the ability to "run the number" when bracket racing. Many beginning racers seem more concerned with top end mph thinking that if the car goes faster at the end of the track they'll pick up ET. However, top end speed isn't really as important as it first appears.
Here's why - Think about the percentage of time that you spend traveling the first 60' compared to the last 60' and you'll see that you spend a relatively large amount of *time* in the first 60' of the track. Now lets take that out to 330' and the compare it to the last 330 feet of the track ...
I went through some timeslips and found a car that ran 10.21 in the 1/4 mile. Now lets do some analysis:
60' = 1.470 or a total of 14% of the total ET
330' = 4.167 or a total of 41% of the total ET
So, you travel 25% of the total distance and you've spent 40% of your total ET to travel that first 25% of the track.
Now lets look at the 1000' to 1320' time compared to the 330' ET:
To get from the 1000' timer to the 1320' timer it took 1.73 seconds (10.213 1320' ET - 8.48 1000' ET) for a total of 17% of the total time. You've only spent 17% of your total ET to travel the last 25% of the distance.
So, as you can see, it takes almost as much *time* to travel the last 320' as it does the first 60' of the track and it takes 2.4 times longer to travel the first 330 feet as it does to travel the last 330' feet - actually 320' feet but its close enough for this comparison.
This is why you gain ET by concentrating on the first few feet of the track. You spend a proportionately greater deal of *time* in the first few feet and since ET is *time* it's easier to gain ET by concentrating on the launch.
From my own personal experience: My car picked up almost .3 in the 60' and about .4 overall when I switched from a 2500 converter to a 3500, MPH actually stayed about the same. It would have taken an awful lot of MPH at the top end to pick up that much ET.
05-10-2006, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tru_ice
Tell me about it, comparing Paul's time slip to one of ours, he gains 30 mph from the 1/8 to the end. Ridiculous!
As for my numbers Rey, I believe I have gone to greater lengths than most people to document what each & every mod did by itself. I see lots of claims, but very few people have real numbers. Lots of "seat-of-the-pants" opinions. I have dyno charts & time slips.
So I'm trying to tell Jon what DID work for me, not what I hear someone say about a mod on someone else's car that supposedly did this or that. It's all about bang for the buck, and if I give you advice, it's to try to save you money & make power. Whether or not you listen is totally up to you.
Oh, and my rockers were 1.8s, so Jon probably wouldn't gain 15. I think Boyce gained 10 from his 1.7s.
05-10-2006, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by WAHUSKER
Yeah, I only gain 25, but my car is a known slug.
As for my numbers Rey, I believe I have gone to greater lengths than most people to document what each & every mod did by itself. I see lots of claims, but very few people have real numbers. Lots of "seat-of-the-pants" opinions. I have dyno charts & time slips.
So I'm trying to tell Jon what DID work for me, not what I hear someone say about a mod on someone else's car that supposedly did this or that. It's all about bang for the buck, and if I give you advice, it's to try to save you money & make power. Whether or not you listen is totally up to you.
Oh, and my rockers were 1.8s, so Jon probably wouldn't gain 15. I think Boyce gained 10 from his 1.7s.
As for my numbers Rey, I believe I have gone to greater lengths than most people to document what each & every mod did by itself. I see lots of claims, but very few people have real numbers. Lots of "seat-of-the-pants" opinions. I have dyno charts & time slips.
So I'm trying to tell Jon what DID work for me, not what I hear someone say about a mod on someone else's car that supposedly did this or that. It's all about bang for the buck, and if I give you advice, it's to try to save you money & make power. Whether or not you listen is totally up to you.
Oh, and my rockers were 1.8s, so Jon probably wouldn't gain 15. I think Boyce gained 10 from his 1.7s.
I'm just telling Jon what I think would work, and though my suggestions may not be documented, they're are suggestions that have manifested from too many hrs spent on these forums. I'm not expressing my opinion to determine whether you're right or I'm wrong, I am merely presenting my suggestions to Jon, which I feel would benefit and ultimately optimize his setup.
I say roller rockers aren't worth it b/c: 1) the stockers are fine, 2) not every car reacts the same from the mods, and from what I've seen and heard around corvetteforum, there are not really any gains from using these other than the ones I stated above (although, if you do increase your life then there will obviously be some), and 3) for the cost he could use that money to put towards other parts that would have a better bang for the buck (so to speak).
So my suggestion:
U/D Pulley
90/90 Setup (Sell your LS6 and recover some funds)
Total: $1400 - 400 = $1000
HP: 15-25 rwhp
ET: ~.2-.3 deduction
Disclaimer: The opinions stated in the post above, represent Rey's suggestions, and do not represent those of the other members in this section.
05-10-2006, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LS1 Sounds
Because nitrous is cheating! Or maybe because his buddy just doesn't want to get outran.
Or maybe because his buddy just doesn't want to get outran. Werd. Screw that guy. Run what ya brung.