For those whpo Do NOT know . . Arron and Ryan used to do alot of testing for NX. I was building the transmissions to live up to the task so yes I was in on it to. c

For those who do not under stand the entire picure. Spraying a wet Produst through a MAF CAN be done. Now say you add 50+ Cubic inches and try to spray a 350 Shot through the MAF. you can start having Issues very fast as Robert himself has had this year.

How many here truely under stand how a MAF works or what the hardware and software limits are? I do as I started writeing usable MAF programs over seven years ago. This is also where backing your MAF program up with a good SD progam in important and one of the reasons I believe BOTH and not just one or the other is needed for this job. Roberts car was kicked into the SD mode on both occasions with his car and was not even looking at what was coming in the MAF.

Robert we have saved your engine at least twice that I know of this year because you were spraying through the MAF and freezing a resistors. I am just glad we was there to help you and show you what to look for in your scans to keep your new Engine alive. I Truely do not want to see you hurt it bad. The last outing it looks like the same thing happened and the car was wounded. Imagin if it has blown the hood apart or bent a rod at the same time?

THOSE are just a few of the problems. I am always very suprised to see how many people spray through the MAF and NEVER log the MAF or even look at it! Your O2s are only a part of the picture. For you home tuner if you are not looking at the WHOLE picture you can get into trouble fast doing this.

You MUST have fuel and air to make it work. NOT just air and N2O. I would never recomend a MAF shot over 150. IMHO it irresponsible to do so.

Sorry for the length boys and girls.

BTW Robert you still have to catch my 10.0 before you can get to his 9.7 or MY 9.8 in his car

 

I wont be at SEMA but I will be at PRI in Orlando. Its in my backyard practically.

As for the 200 hp or 350...the kit as it comes is packaged to spray a 50-200. And as you said...thats to keep it simple for the avg ser to bolt up and go. Which of course is the majority of buyers/users. Guys like us that want those 300+ shots certainly will figure out varying ways to get those big numbers safely. and at that point there definately is more than one way to skin a cat.

But as he stated all you have to do is remove the integral nitrous noid and add a fitting and then use a noid of your choosing to up the shot size. Or a modded T-fitting for a dual stage. of course at this point its up to the end user to ensure they have the correct injectors, fuel pump and tune up.

 

I have sprayed 300+ dry on quite a few setups. Never did I or the others have issues due to MAfs. I actually have had more issues with my direct ports than the dry at the 300+ hp level. But of course you will find people that have had issues with all types of kits. My main contention is that 99/100 its typically the users fualt and not the kit.


Never seen a MAF freeze and I have been spraying these LS1 MAF since 1998 from 50-350, some close to the MAf some farther away. Never had a MAF freeze. Never seen anyone elses MAF freeze. As a matter of fact...with the hundreds of LS1 that i have been involved with personally...I have only seen 1 or 2 peopl ehave to replace the MAf due to malfunction...and that was due to them monkey fisting the MAF wires trying to clean them...lol. I have seen people SPECULATE and say "yeah the MAf froze" in an attempt to lay blame on why thier 200 shot blew a head gasket with 91 octane and and 31 degrees of timing spraying at 2500 rpm off a button...lol. Butt really...there are So many dry kits running around right now (half assed too) and there really isnt an issue with MAF freeze.



I agree...I always tell everyone they should ATLEAST go to a dyno and check Af ratio at a min.


Why? You either have the correct Af ratio or you dont. 150 many times is approx the limit of a stock fuel system. but if you upgrade injectors and scale accordingly and add in intank walbro you will have a ton of room for more. The MAf will read it no poblem.

 

Anyways guys...I am not here to argue. You guys clearly have alot of nitrous experiance. just dont be a dry hater!

 

Not a Dry Hater per se' We had a dry kit on a LT1 before the LS1 was ever produced.

I know for a FACT Robert froze his MAF. I was there and pointed it out to him in his logs

Dry is all good when truely under stood

 

LOL...what in the logs told you his MAF froze...specifically.

And I would say that I TRUELY inderstand dry. I have probably run more LS1 dry setups at over 700 rwhp than anyone.

Dry kicks ***.

 

Here is another nitrous setup I did for a friend. Its a dual stage dry/direct port. The dry on this car was AWESOME. It made 750 rwhp without breathing hard just on the dry first stage. 870 rwhp on both kits. The seller is fudgng a TAD on the 1000 hp. Maybe 1000 crank hp.

 

here is a vid of that car on its initial dyno setup. It only made 787 on one run. We had to make changes to the wet kit and did more dynos later. But the last vid of the dry kit spraying through a clear lid is very helpful. that dry only hit was about a 350 shot. Car made about 490 or so all motor on the nitrous setup. I think it made 730-740 something on the first stage dry. And they dry was WAy less finicky that the wet direct port. No lean spikes on the dry like the direct port wet.

This car on the next dyno session made 870 something on both kits.

http://www.need2speed.com/Movies/JuicedSS262dyno.avi

here is the codec if you cant view the vid

http://www.divx.com/divx/download/

 

damn vids down. Ill see if I can get it to work.

 

I won't be at PRI this year maybe next year or if you are going to one of the shootouts I may make a appearance in somone's car

Everyone has opinions on how to make power, 300hp dry shop through the maf is impressive! with a stock computer? you got a hairy sack if thats the case! I see that we do share similar views that nitrous doesn't hurt motors, stupid people do! (and yes I have done my fair share of damage)

 

What the freakazoid are you talking about, I never have frooze my resistors, what the hell is that about? The REASON i had a problem last time out was because I was spraying a 300 shot and the MAF WAS DOING IT's JOB the way it was supposed to do, would you like to see the logs. I had a high rpm lean backfire because I hit the rev limiter and the pcm killed the fuel, why did this happen, because i had no window sw to shut the nitrous off when hitting 7000+ rpm.

THE MAF DOES NOT FREEZE, PERIOD END OF STORY. How in the hell could anyone drive their EFI car in 40 below zero weather if this was the case absloute nonsense. The simple way to understand how the MAF works is to say simply that a heated wire trys to remain at a known temp and the changes that it sees trying to maintain a voltage/current are transfered into Algroithms. Your thinking is antiquated and giving advice to not run over a 150dry is really irresposible. Go back to the link and check some of the dynos being posted of dry shots reaching 900rwhp.

Saving my ***, come on. I have well over 200 passes and so many different dry combos and you saved my ***, BS. yes your pretty good at what you do, but others surely can tune and understand things also. have you not seen how to pull timing with a dry hit which doesn't affect your n/a tune. well I have and do run it and you must be able to understand and log your MAF parameters. But then again, you must have saved my azz there also. Just because you may have been there when I flogged a new set-up, where wer you when i was flogging it the day before or the day after, or on the dyno, oh yea you were at home saving my azz. Ellis nothing personal, but you sure seem to be full of yourself, what's up?
Robert

Edit: Oh yea, the new EFI/LSx Dry record of 8.4 ET was, IIRC, a 350 shot going directly down the neck of the intake tract.

I don't hink your 10.0 Et is going to last long? As for catching you or Arron, well my attempt is certainly going to be difficult, as only a handfull have ever got the IRS 6-speed vettes into the 9's. But goals are what makes this hobby so fun. Win loose or draw, it's still all about having fun, and again nothing personal against anyone.

Hey what kind of 1/8 mile mph are you guys hitting, one of my last outs, but another aborted run due to track, was a new best of 103, and a 2xx hit. My car is also back on the road, runs great, just a little hole in the intake, hehe.

 

Arron, here's the answer to your question. I am not afraid to ask someone in know when i need info. Just because I didn't know the answer myself, doesn't mean I don't have a grasp of the nitrous concept. Anyone who claims to know it all is an idiot in reallity. So, here's a quote/answer from NXRicky.

Robert

 

 

THE MAF DOES NOT FREEZE, PERIOD END OF STORY. Robert

Care to pull up those loggs? I showed you at the track and in front of people you admitted the nossle was pointed diredtly at the MAF anf the MAF freaked out every time you hit it. You had NO idea to even look at the MAF reading and see it was going limp and only reading a mear 8GPS of flow and making it go lean. I am no master tuner like you are(even if I was tuning timne under dry before your car was made) but I know what to look for time to time when someone is having an issue, like you were, and they ask me for help.

You can deny what happened here Robert but we both know what happen. Robert I am not realy as full of myself nearly as much as you refuse to admit to minor over site on your behalf. Heck it happens. People make mistakes. Yes even me.

BTW I call BS on the last time out. I was not there but we diud a little test yeaterday on a GM MAF car. We held it on the rev limiter and shot a dry 150hp shot through it till the 10Lbs bottle was empty.

Damn thing is STILL running

BTW I am pulling down 118-120 in the 1/8th I AM hitting the limiter(MSD soft touch) at the 1,100 mark STOP with the excues! Your car is lighter then both mine and Arrons LOL!

 

I am not so sure it's lighter anymore, i figure it's around 3500lbs? Anyway, back on topic, and no more aruging on who did what. It wasn't my best year all around with my car. I know, we could have a grudge bracket race, then we'll see who's King ****, and who's Queen ****, lol, with the Queen wearing a dress for one drag race day, hehehehe.

Robert

Edit: Ellis, are you sure your not saying freezing of the MAF, but in reality meaning maxing the MAF. If for some reason a MAF frooze, it would max the MAF and dump all available fuel and go rich not lean, just as a close placed nozzle will do-max the MAF cause it's so cold/dense of a reading.

 

Well Robert it looks like you have it completely covered and have not had a single issue all year. I had a few one was a blown head gasket from running number eight lean. My mistake for going at it so hard six back to back passes with out pulling the pluggs.

I am glad things are going so well. You are the master of Dry and I hope those parts that let you down this year are taken care of soon. You are correct you could never freeze the MAF and put it into fail safe mode.

Good Luck Robert!

 

Want my .02$ ? Put the Dry Shot after the MAf and Pray =) Worked out for my oldie car sub 10's =)

 

Actually the problems I have had were user inspired, not design or kit related.
1. Broken ringland on stock motor: added timing instead of pulling timing on big shot.
2. Surging: nozzle had been bump and getting bad reading on 1st stg
3. Intake backfire: Hitting limiter and pulled fuel went lean.

So, I still contend that the dry shots are fine and safe, given user stupidity is a non factor.

Did you see the thread on clyinder temps Dry vs DP, where the dry hits had a much better distribution per clyinder compared to even the individually tuned clyinder DP? So, the leaner cylinders get covered better with dry. Dry has so much going for it and it now seems to be able to compete head on with even wet DP hits. EFI LIve COS 5 now has a dedicated fueling table for dry hits that is activated by a sw while spraying. some are trying this with a DP dry, and results are not in yet. So the options are many for the n2o world these days.

Stroblite, the LT1 NOS kits are a different dry style. They use spike the fuel pressure for added fueling while spraying, so no need to ahve them before the MAF. how's it going bud? Did you get a new car yet? man we had fun at the track, ever coming back this way?

Robert

 

Why don't I just call up Rich Christianson and we can resolve this all on national TV

I prefer wet, becuase dry causes chaffing

Arron "King **** of Turd Island"

 

That's funny. I would have to go to the gym though. Got to have bigger arms than Richie Rich in his gay azz muscle shirts, lol. Ellis would prob look pretty good in an evening dress standing next to Rich and his muscles.
Robert