WB o2 vs. NB o2 AFR....WTF!!
12-09-2008, 05:17 PM
#21
12-09-2008, 08:10 PM
#22
You can look at the cost of nb sensor vs wb sensor and see that the cost of the wb is 2X the cost of a NB. Then you have to look at the cost of the controller. It is 3 or 4 times more for a WB. System cost to an OEM is somewhere 2X to 3X for a wb. You can calulate this if you want.
What controller are you talking about? If you use the PCM to control the WB in a OEM application there is no added cost because the PCM has the math integrated into it to handle the WB. That would basically be the whole point of designing EMBEDDED SYSTEMS with microprocessors on them. I mean do you really think the PCM reads the raw voltage coming out of the NB. There are functions the PCM must go through to implement closed loop or any type of sensor feedback; things going on behind the cones of silence that you can't see. Someone had to make the NB sensors interface with the PCM in the first place so I don't see how making WB sensors work with the PCM is anymore complicated.
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/f...ead.php?t=3127
http://faq.f650.com/GSFAQs/Photos/Fu.../Bosch5893.pdf
Read the following links and then also consider the formula from the first link.
It isn't a black and white sensor. Especially when you consider what the PCM does with the data.
12-09-2008, 08:45 PM
#23
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Sorry Frost you need pricing in 100,000 from the manufacture. The cost is not like that.
Z28
I like people who think they know what they are talking about and treat that as fact.
I like this. "There are functions the PCM must go through to interpret the raw voltage; things going on behind the cones of silence that you can't see. Someone had to make the NB sensors interface with the PCM in the first place so I don't see how making WB sensors work with the PCM is anymore complicated."
I like this more
" PCM has the math integrated into it to handle the WB. " I will connect the wires to the math.
I know you do not make a living do electronic design. lol
I will tell the boss that is does not cost more to add components to the board. That all ECMs cost the same. Then I will be looking for a new job(not good right now). Again to the math. If you have 5$ more components to make the wide band controller work and you sell 500,000 how much is that. I know that the WB controller costs more than NB
I see you got the Bosch O2 sensor spec. Now call them and ask for the 100,000 price for the NB and the WB price. Report back.
Have fun
Z28
I like people who think they know what they are talking about and treat that as fact.
I like this. "There are functions the PCM must go through to interpret the raw voltage; things going on behind the cones of silence that you can't see. Someone had to make the NB sensors interface with the PCM in the first place so I don't see how making WB sensors work with the PCM is anymore complicated."
I like this more
" PCM has the math integrated into it to handle the WB. " I will connect the wires to the math.
I know you do not make a living do electronic design. lol
I will tell the boss that is does not cost more to add components to the board. That all ECMs cost the same. Then I will be looking for a new job(not good right now). Again to the math. If you have 5$ more components to make the wide band controller work and you sell 500,000 how much is that. I know that the WB controller costs more than NB
I see you got the Bosch O2 sensor spec. Now call them and ask for the 100,000 price for the NB and the WB price. Report back.
Have fun
Last edited by YellowToy/A; 12-09-2008 at 08:50 PM. Reason: need help
12-09-2008, 09:00 PM
#24
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wow, if the OP can dicifer thru the **** and **** and read this, most likely the AEM is the problem. go over to hp tuners forums and read about several people having them get farther and farther off with time, and with no free air calibration or way to correct it. i personally own a almost new in box aem and the reason it is almost new is it was taken out, hooked up and returned to the box. never worked the first time. i would not trust that wideband. tune your part throttle with your short trims for now and get you a new wideband.
for everyone else, continue pissing....... my car is tuned just fine
for everyone else, continue pissing....... my car is tuned just fine
12-09-2008, 11:29 PM
#25
Sorry Frost you need pricing in 100,000 from the manufacture. The cost is not like that.
Z28
I like people who think they know what they are talking about and treat that as fact.
I like this. "There are functions the PCM must go through to interpret the raw voltage; things going on behind the cones of silence that you can't see. Someone had to make the NB sensors interface with the PCM in the first place so I don't see how making WB sensors work with the PCM is anymore complicated."
I like this more
" PCM has the math integrated into it to handle the WB. " I will connect the wires to the math.
I know you do not make a living do electronic design. lol
I will tell the boss that is does not cost more to add components to the board. That all ECMs cost the same. Then I will be looking for a new job(not good right now). Again to the math. If you have 5$ more components to make the wide band controller work and you sell 500,000 how much is that. I know that the WB controller costs more than NB
I see you got the Bosch O2 sensor spec. Now call them and ask for the 100,000 price for the NB and the WB price. Report back.
Have fun
Z28
I like people who think they know what they are talking about and treat that as fact.
I like this. "There are functions the PCM must go through to interpret the raw voltage; things going on behind the cones of silence that you can't see. Someone had to make the NB sensors interface with the PCM in the first place so I don't see how making WB sensors work with the PCM is anymore complicated."
I like this more
" PCM has the math integrated into it to handle the WB. " I will connect the wires to the math.
I know you do not make a living do electronic design. lol
I will tell the boss that is does not cost more to add components to the board. That all ECMs cost the same. Then I will be looking for a new job(not good right now). Again to the math. If you have 5$ more components to make the wide band controller work and you sell 500,000 how much is that. I know that the WB controller costs more than NB
I see you got the Bosch O2 sensor spec. Now call them and ask for the 100,000 price for the NB and the WB price. Report back.
Have fun
Yup. I guess you are right. I am a dipshit since I limit myself to FPGAs, and small TI chips like the MSP430. I am sorry I can only code and my attempts to disasm 512mb operating systems in Motorola asm are slow if any progress. Sorry I work at my job 50+ hours a week and have little time to play with managed c++ and .net
I greatly apologize to LS1Tech and Kent Helfrich for being a total loser. Sorry guys. But seriously, I know there are a lot of better coders and engineers out there than me but you aren't one of them.
12-24-2008, 02:18 PM
#26
Wow...lots of pissing, but that's not helping!
The avg. seems to say the aem is the problem...I dont know about that, being when I was in OL using the WB, it had far, far less jumping around at idle than the fresh new NB do, the NB is the ones reading off so much.
Some seem to advise just going OL, but I would like to take run CL if possible.
I know there are different directions to solving a problem and would think someone has figured out how to solve this...but maybe not.
The avg. seems to say the aem is the problem...I dont know about that, being when I was in OL using the WB, it had far, far less jumping around at idle than the fresh new NB do, the NB is the ones reading off so much.
Some seem to advise just going OL, but I would like to take run CL if possible.
I know there are different directions to solving a problem and would think someone has figured out how to solve this...but maybe not.
12-24-2008, 09:59 PM
#27
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NB's switch on and off so they will always "bounce" but are acurate in there intended range. WB's wont bounce around as much but that doesnt mean its acurate. only way to be for sure if your WB is off is to try someone else's. im sure you can find someone willing to let you stick theres in and try. if you have or get a trusted WB there is really no need to turn the NB's back on. go open loop if you have the goods to do it.
12-25-2008, 10:33 PM
#28
NB's switch on and off so they will always "bounce" but are acurate in there intended range. WB's wont bounce around as much but that doesnt mean its acurate. only way to be for sure if your WB is off is to try someone else's. im sure you can find someone willing to let you stick theres in and try. if you have or get a trusted WB there is really no need to turn the NB's back on. go open loop if you have the goods to do it.
I originally paid a "pro" to tune my car and he hacked the IFR table for one thing, part throttle was awful and it stalled alot, that's why I bought HP and knowing nothing about tuning, and almost nothing now but put the IFR back stock, started over and tuned the airflow tables and now I have a good running car and the NB and WB basically agree other than at low loads and idle, the reason I say this is, if it runs good and it only has KR when the converter kicks hard, can I feel good about going OL and if no KR other than when the converter kicks down a gear or two, and I monitor it now and then for KR can I be reasonably assured the tune is safe? I wanted to run CL for safety but with the STFT's reading the way they are in CL, I wonder if OL would not be better.
I am a little unsure because of being green to tuning and this is my baby and don't want to hurt her.
01-21-2009, 08:04 PM
#30
The cam isn't the problem...it's the collectors on the headers that create the problem.
I have two high-flow cats about mid way back and they do help, we had them there because the drivers side floor board but decided to cut approx. 2" off the collectors to mount on the collectors and it appears to have helped both the exhaust fumes (smell has been reduced more) and the STFT's at idle after 2 scans appear to be coinciding with the WB...maybe got lucky...guess the cats keep the gases there a little longer and get a better reading, just guessing here.
I have two high-flow cats about mid way back and they do help, we had them there because the drivers side floor board but decided to cut approx. 2" off the collectors to mount on the collectors and it appears to have helped both the exhaust fumes (smell has been reduced more) and the STFT's at idle after 2 scans appear to be coinciding with the WB...maybe got lucky...guess the cats keep the gases there a little longer and get a better reading, just guessing here.
01-22-2009, 09:43 AM
#31
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If the NBs are switching fast and evenly (~50% duty
cycle) then you can rely on them being stoich-average
and your wideband should report the same. This is a
good way to get a second cal-point (the free air and
22:1 (or whatever) being the other). If NB output looks
like Monday morning after Super Bowl, can't find the
toilet so puke on the rug, then your NB is off-center
(either for temperature or misfueled) and trim based
tuning approaches fail.
When you have a good tune that changes with the
weather you need to call the VE good (for "standard
conditions" and look to the temperature tables - the
charge bias temp (ECT+IAT blending, you can "fix"
the VE table for one temp-pair but see it (air mass
calc) drift off when IAT swings wide, or blend fails to
swing properly with it because weighting is wrong),
the excess enrichment being pushed from some OSes'
PE adder / multipliers & so on. Commanded EQ will
roll up all these adders etc. on the commanded-fueling
side but the airflow may take a lot more data points
(days @ various temps) before you can map out the
error and correct. And of course IAT vs real temps
have their own arror contibutors in the intake tract
heat soak, sensor lag on abrupt changes in airflow
(airflow extract vs heat soak input rate) etc.
You might be happier with relocating the IAT to a
non-heat-soaking location, perhaps change the charge
bias scheme to IAT-only and see if you gain consistency.
Of course this will throw everything off initially and
not fully clear the thicket until you've had the range
of IAT readings, again.
cycle) then you can rely on them being stoich-average
and your wideband should report the same. This is a
good way to get a second cal-point (the free air and
22:1 (or whatever) being the other). If NB output looks
like Monday morning after Super Bowl, can't find the
toilet so puke on the rug, then your NB is off-center
(either for temperature or misfueled) and trim based
tuning approaches fail.
When you have a good tune that changes with the
weather you need to call the VE good (for "standard
conditions" and look to the temperature tables - the
charge bias temp (ECT+IAT blending, you can "fix"
the VE table for one temp-pair but see it (air mass
calc) drift off when IAT swings wide, or blend fails to
swing properly with it because weighting is wrong),
the excess enrichment being pushed from some OSes'
PE adder / multipliers & so on. Commanded EQ will
roll up all these adders etc. on the commanded-fueling
side but the airflow may take a lot more data points
(days @ various temps) before you can map out the
error and correct. And of course IAT vs real temps
have their own arror contibutors in the intake tract
heat soak, sensor lag on abrupt changes in airflow
(airflow extract vs heat soak input rate) etc.
You might be happier with relocating the IAT to a
non-heat-soaking location, perhaps change the charge
bias scheme to IAT-only and see if you gain consistency.
Of course this will throw everything off initially and
not fully clear the thicket until you've had the range
of IAT readings, again.
01-22-2009, 01:38 PM
#32
Jimmy...I used to understand zero of what you say, but I got about half of that so that's good 
I have the temp charge bias at 1.00, right in the middle of IAT and ECT and it IS more stable and I don't get bad readings while sitting in traffic and subsequent computer trims going wild when they should not.
Another thing I did was raise the CL enable to 144 and after another scan this morning the NB's still appear to be coinciding with the WB and the trims are looking pretty good at idle....all from just moving the cats up to the collectors where they should be
I have the temp charge bias at 1.00, right in the middle of IAT and ECT and it IS more stable and I don't get bad readings while sitting in traffic and subsequent computer trims going wild when they should not.
Another thing I did was raise the CL enable to 144 and after another scan this morning the NB's still appear to be coinciding with the WB and the trims are looking pretty good at idle....all from just moving the cats up to the collectors where they should be
