Help learning to tune - Stock 98 TA with Incon TT kit @ 7-8psi
12-05-2008, 02:44 PM
#1
Help learning to tune - Stock 98 TA with Incon TT kit @ 7-8psi Hey guys,
Just looking for a little direction here.
I own EFI Live and an LC1 Wideband. When i first got it i sat down and read through a lot of the help files that came with it, etc. I never quite grasped where to start on it... it all seemed very intimidating and i ended up just paying someone to come tune the car.
Flash forward a while... and now i have a second car that i want to tune. Its my 98 trans am, and i just picked up an Incon TT kit for it.
The car is basicly stock. Im looking to run 8psi or so and get to around 500rwhp with it.
I really dont even know where to start. I understand how to navigate around in the software, pull the tune up and be able to look at it, but know nothing about what i need to edit and why. It seems like there are multiple ways to do the same thing, some better than others, and i dont want to get started in the wrong direction.
The first thing i planned to do was change the injector flow table to reflect the new injectors (60lb mototron). I had made that change on my last car, and the tuner said it was pretty close where i had it. I actually have the exact same injectors in this car... so i was going to basicly just copy the injector table out of my camaro and put it in the trans am.
Once i get to there im stumped. Where do i start? I planned to start out at 4.5-5psi... whatever the stock wastegate actuators will open at. Once i get the hang of it there... i will get a manual boost controller and start working my way up. I figure at 4.5psi even if im not spot on, i will be ok, and be good for learning.
Every online tuning writeup i find seems to have the assumption that the reader has some basic knowledge. It would be like telling something that the first step to driving the car is starting it, but not mentioning that you first have to open the door, put the key in the ignition, turn the key, etc. I feel like im a fairly intelligent person, but just a little baffled on how to start. Im also not one to just jump in head first and hope for the best... i second guess everything i do and dont want to risk messing something up.
I kind of kick myself for having all the tools to tune the car, but still having to hire someone the first time around on my camaro... and i really would like to not have to do that a second time with this Trans Am.
It seems like everyone that is local is kind of secretive about teaching this, so this is about my only resource. After i have it where i think it should be, i will still probably have the guy that tuned my camaro double check it and make some tweaks, but i would at least like to turn this process into a learning experience so that i dont have to always depend on someone else to do any sort of changes.
Just looking for a little direction here.
I own EFI Live and an LC1 Wideband. When i first got it i sat down and read through a lot of the help files that came with it, etc. I never quite grasped where to start on it... it all seemed very intimidating and i ended up just paying someone to come tune the car.
Flash forward a while... and now i have a second car that i want to tune. Its my 98 trans am, and i just picked up an Incon TT kit for it.
The car is basicly stock. Im looking to run 8psi or so and get to around 500rwhp with it.
I really dont even know where to start. I understand how to navigate around in the software, pull the tune up and be able to look at it, but know nothing about what i need to edit and why. It seems like there are multiple ways to do the same thing, some better than others, and i dont want to get started in the wrong direction.
The first thing i planned to do was change the injector flow table to reflect the new injectors (60lb mototron). I had made that change on my last car, and the tuner said it was pretty close where i had it. I actually have the exact same injectors in this car... so i was going to basicly just copy the injector table out of my camaro and put it in the trans am.
Once i get to there im stumped. Where do i start? I planned to start out at 4.5-5psi... whatever the stock wastegate actuators will open at. Once i get the hang of it there... i will get a manual boost controller and start working my way up. I figure at 4.5psi even if im not spot on, i will be ok, and be good for learning.
Every online tuning writeup i find seems to have the assumption that the reader has some basic knowledge. It would be like telling something that the first step to driving the car is starting it, but not mentioning that you first have to open the door, put the key in the ignition, turn the key, etc. I feel like im a fairly intelligent person, but just a little baffled on how to start. Im also not one to just jump in head first and hope for the best... i second guess everything i do and dont want to risk messing something up.
I kind of kick myself for having all the tools to tune the car, but still having to hire someone the first time around on my camaro... and i really would like to not have to do that a second time with this Trans Am.
It seems like everyone that is local is kind of secretive about teaching this, so this is about my only resource. After i have it where i think it should be, i will still probably have the guy that tuned my camaro double check it and make some tweaks, but i would at least like to turn this process into a learning experience so that i dont have to always depend on someone else to do any sort of changes.
12-05-2008, 03:55 PM
#3
im in the same boat.. i bought a book for tuning which is pretty much like learning a different language. its like everything else, practice makes perfect. the only solid advice i think ive gotten on this subject is to just start slow and take yur time learning everything
12-05-2008, 04:01 PM
#4
im in the same boat.. i bought a book for tuning which is pretty much like learning a different language. its like everything else, practice makes perfect. the only solid advice i think ive gotten on this subject is to just start slow and take yur time learning everything
I all about starting slow... but i really dont know where to start.
12-05-2008, 04:41 PM
#6
As for learning to tune, a twin turbo is not exactly the car to be learning on.
That being said, there's plenty of help on the EFIlive forums.
If you don't understand the basic operating principals of an automotive engine control system, you're in for a long learning curve.
12-05-2008, 11:11 PM
#7
The best thing you ever did was getting that book.
As for learning to tune, a twin turbo is not exactly the car to be learning on.
That being said, there's plenty of help on the EFIlive forums.
If you don't understand the basic operating principals of an automotive engine control system, you're in for a long learning curve.
As for learning to tune, a twin turbo is not exactly the car to be learning on.
That being said, there's plenty of help on the EFIlive forums.
If you don't understand the basic operating principals of an automotive engine control system, you're in for a long learning curve.
I understand the theories behind a good portion of things, but not on the level of specific values.
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12-06-2008, 11:28 PM
#8
This isn't a question that's really easy to answer. You're going to have to do a bunch of searching and reading to get an idea of what to do. Then you're going to be practicing your new skills on something that is not very forgiving. Small mistakes lead to big problems.
A somewhat simplistic way of looking at it is that when there's boost you want more fuel and less timing. Boost requires a richer mixture so where you might tune a NA car for power by setting the AFR at 12.5:1 you'll want 11:1. Guys who are really sure of their tuning may tune a little leaner but you'll be treading on thin ice so keep it rich.
Having EFILive and a WBO2 is a good start. First off, you need to setup the injector offset tables to match your new injectors. Once that is setup, read the VE tuning document on efilive's site and ditch your MAF. Run a SD tune so you can command the AFR you want. I've been running COS3 and SD for a couple or three years now and it is the only way to tune imho.
You're going to find out fast that the MAP sensor runs out of resolution just when you need it most. One way to solve the problem is to run a 2bar MAP and rescale your tables. While this cuts the fueling resolution in half, the OS can handle it properly. The benefit is that you can finely tune under boost. Without a 2bar you have to tune the highest tables to the amount of boost you'll run. Not the best thing...
Skip the manual boost controller and get an e-boost2 (EBC). There is no substitute for one. Manual controllers are unpredictable. Finally, do the tuning on a dyno that can load the engine. It's just insane to try and tune on the street. I did it for a while at 3am on a long stretch of road 30 miles out of town. When you're hitting 155-160 while watching the laptop and looking out for road debris and animals, you start to reconsider your life and how you're living it (hopefully
).
Good luck!
A somewhat simplistic way of looking at it is that when there's boost you want more fuel and less timing. Boost requires a richer mixture so where you might tune a NA car for power by setting the AFR at 12.5:1 you'll want 11:1. Guys who are really sure of their tuning may tune a little leaner but you'll be treading on thin ice so keep it rich.
Having EFILive and a WBO2 is a good start. First off, you need to setup the injector offset tables to match your new injectors. Once that is setup, read the VE tuning document on efilive's site and ditch your MAF. Run a SD tune so you can command the AFR you want. I've been running COS3 and SD for a couple or three years now and it is the only way to tune imho.
You're going to find out fast that the MAP sensor runs out of resolution just when you need it most. One way to solve the problem is to run a 2bar MAP and rescale your tables. While this cuts the fueling resolution in half, the OS can handle it properly. The benefit is that you can finely tune under boost. Without a 2bar you have to tune the highest tables to the amount of boost you'll run. Not the best thing...
Skip the manual boost controller and get an e-boost2 (EBC). There is no substitute for one. Manual controllers are unpredictable. Finally, do the tuning on a dyno that can load the engine. It's just insane to try and tune on the street. I did it for a while at 3am on a long stretch of road 30 miles out of town. When you're hitting 155-160 while watching the laptop and looking out for road debris and animals, you start to reconsider your life and how you're living it (hopefully
).Good luck!
12-06-2008, 11:58 PM
#9
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Hey guys,
It seems like everyone that is local is kind of secretive about teaching this, so this is about my only resource. After i have it where i think it should be, i will still probably have the guy that tuned my camaro double check it and make some tweaks, but i would at least like to turn this process into a learning experience so that i dont have to always depend on someone else to do any sort of changes.
It seems like everyone that is local is kind of secretive about teaching this, so this is about my only resource. After i have it where i think it should be, i will still probably have the guy that tuned my camaro double check it and make some tweaks, but i would at least like to turn this process into a learning experience so that i dont have to always depend on someone else to do any sort of changes.
12-07-2008, 07:07 AM
#10
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We also have a new book out that covers the basics of EFI operation and the tuning process in an easy to understand format. The book also includes case studies of real world tuning examples including (you guessed it!) a turbo application. You can check it out on our website at...
www.masportspeedshop.com
It's 224 pages...lots of useful info. AND, we will also be introducing a complementary website that will have new tuning case-studies added each month along with other useful and relevant information. The website will be accessible free of charge to those who purchase the book.
www.masportspeedshop.com
It's 224 pages...lots of useful info. AND, we will also be introducing a complementary website that will have new tuning case-studies added each month along with other useful and relevant information. The website will be accessible free of charge to those who purchase the book.
12-08-2008, 04:50 PM
#11
I think the book Dan mentioned in the post above will be very helpful. It walks you through that process of opening the door, etc.
As well as giving you some specific values for the test cases (which shouldn't be copied verbatim -- but will give you some idea what tables are changing and by how much -- and why).
As well as giving you some specific values for the test cases (which shouldn't be copied verbatim -- but will give you some idea what tables are changing and by how much -- and why).
12-08-2008, 05:33 PM
#13
Do you have an understanding of the sensors in your system? If not, I suggest that you do some research and find out what they are and what they do. They are key to manipulating and fine tuning your system.
Find out which parameters to monitor, they will be the ones that reflect the changes you will be making. You can do your data logging while driving around, such as your daily commute. Do your data analysis on your time off. This will give you a basic understanding of how your system is working. And for gosh sakes, don't watch the laptop while you drive. That is what data logging is for.
I strongly suggest that you start small (duh) and start with closed loop (partial throttle) tuning first. This dials in your day-to-day driveability of the vehicle.
Make adjustments in small increments, and document what you do in each tune. And be sure and save off your stock tune before making any changes at all. That way you can always go back and start over.
The most important thing to remember is that we all started exactly where you are, without experience and seeking knowledge. Study, ask questions on the EFILive forum, and follow the basic instructions.
Find out which parameters to monitor, they will be the ones that reflect the changes you will be making. You can do your data logging while driving around, such as your daily commute. Do your data analysis on your time off. This will give you a basic understanding of how your system is working. And for gosh sakes, don't watch the laptop while you drive. That is what data logging is for.
I strongly suggest that you start small (duh) and start with closed loop (partial throttle) tuning first. This dials in your day-to-day driveability of the vehicle.
Make adjustments in small increments, and document what you do in each tune. And be sure and save off your stock tune before making any changes at all. That way you can always go back and start over.
The most important thing to remember is that we all started exactly where you are, without experience and seeking knowledge. Study, ask questions on the EFILive forum, and follow the basic instructions.
12-08-2008, 06:05 PM
#14
Do you have an understanding of the sensors in your system? If not, I suggest that you do some research and find out what they are and what they do. They are key to manipulating and fine tuning your system.
Find out which parameters to monitor, they will be the ones that reflect the changes you will be making. You can do your data logging while driving around, such as your daily commute. Do your data analysis on your time off. This will give you a basic understanding of how your system is working. And for gosh sakes, don't watch the laptop while you drive. That is what data logging is for.
I strongly suggest that you start small (duh) and start with closed loop (partial throttle) tuning first. This dials in your day-to-day driveability of the vehicle.
Make adjustments in small increments, and document what you do in each tune. And be sure and save off your stock tune before making any changes at all. That way you can always go back and start over.
The most important thing to remember is that we all started exactly where you are, without experience and seeking knowledge. Study, ask questions on the EFILive forum, and follow the basic instructions.
Find out which parameters to monitor, they will be the ones that reflect the changes you will be making. You can do your data logging while driving around, such as your daily commute. Do your data analysis on your time off. This will give you a basic understanding of how your system is working. And for gosh sakes, don't watch the laptop while you drive. That is what data logging is for.
I strongly suggest that you start small (duh) and start with closed loop (partial throttle) tuning first. This dials in your day-to-day driveability of the vehicle.
Make adjustments in small increments, and document what you do in each tune. And be sure and save off your stock tune before making any changes at all. That way you can always go back and start over.
The most important thing to remember is that we all started exactly where you are, without experience and seeking knowledge. Study, ask questions on the EFILive forum, and follow the basic instructions.
I understand the basics of this, or at least i think i do, i just dont know which values or tables to change, and how big of a change to make. I also know there is more than one way to do things... and i dont want to "self teach" myself the wrong way.
12-08-2008, 08:50 PM
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Do you have an understanding of the sensors in your system? If not, I suggest that you do some research and find out what they are and what they do. They are key to manipulating and fine tuning your system.
Find out which parameters to monitor, they will be the ones that reflect the changes you will be making. You can do your data logging while driving around, such as your daily commute. Do your data analysis on your time off. This will give you a basic understanding of how your system is working.
Find out which parameters to monitor, they will be the ones that reflect the changes you will be making. You can do your data logging while driving around, such as your daily commute. Do your data analysis on your time off. This will give you a basic understanding of how your system is working.
12-08-2008, 10:04 PM
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One major challenge you are going to face with your setup is the 98 OS. EFI Live does not offer a 2/3 bar setup for the 98. (HPT does by the way.) I would suggest upgrading your pcm and OS if you choose to use EFI Live with the TT.
12-08-2008, 10:07 PM
#17
My tuner uses HP tuners, but i own EFI Live. If he tunes it for a 2/3 bar setup will i not be able to change any tables?
One thing im REALLY curious about... at what point is the MAF maxed out and i NEED to go SD? At 550rwhp could i keep a MAF tune?
12-08-2008, 10:52 PM
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So HP tuners offers it but EFI Live doesn't?
My tuner uses HP tuners, but i own EFI Live. If he tunes it for a 2/3 bar setup will i not be able to change any tables?
One thing im REALLY curious about... at what point is the MAF maxed out and i NEED to go SD? At 550rwhp could i keep a MAF tune?
My tuner uses HP tuners, but i own EFI Live. If he tunes it for a 2/3 bar setup will i not be able to change any tables?
One thing im REALLY curious about... at what point is the MAF maxed out and i NEED to go SD? At 550rwhp could i keep a MAF tune?
There is two ways to go about this, scale your MAF or get a new (bigger) MAF. Scaling is a tuning procedure while getting a new MAF is self-explanatory.
But thats if you want to run w/ a MAF which i would suggest, helps to accommodate those slight variations in air temp/ density plus it always helps to have another sensor giving you information about the state of your engine
12-09-2008, 12:17 AM
#19
So HP tuners offers it but EFI Live doesn't?
My tuner uses HP tuners, but i own EFI Live. If he tunes it for a 2/3 bar setup will i not be able to change any tables?
One thing im REALLY curious about... at what point is the MAF maxed out and i NEED to go SD? At 550rwhp could i keep a MAF tune?
My tuner uses HP tuners, but i own EFI Live. If he tunes it for a 2/3 bar setup will i not be able to change any tables?
One thing im REALLY curious about... at what point is the MAF maxed out and i NEED to go SD? At 550rwhp could i keep a MAF tune?
If he uses an HPT 2bar or other custom OS, you will not be able to work with it with EFI Live.
You will most likely max the MAF around 450-470ish if the car has a six speed.
First off I dont know the resolution limits of your MAF, but.... say it was the limit
There is two ways to go about this, scale your MAF or get a new (bigger) MAF. Scaling is a tuning procedure while getting a new MAF is self-explanatory.
But thats if you want to run w/ a MAF which i would suggest, helps to accommodate those slight variations in air temp/ density plus it always helps to have another sensor giving you information about the state of your engine
There is two ways to go about this, scale your MAF or get a new (bigger) MAF. Scaling is a tuning procedure while getting a new MAF is self-explanatory.
But thats if you want to run w/ a MAF which i would suggest, helps to accommodate those slight variations in air temp/ density plus it always helps to have another sensor giving you information about the state of your engine
You can't swap the MAF or alter the scale to stretch it out. The limit is in the PCM.
12-09-2008, 08:59 AM
#20
The Incon Kits come with a replacement regulator that goes back by the fuel filter. It is boost reference. I had planned to not use it because i figured i could just have it tuned at a static fuel pressure. Would i be better off to use it if im trying to stay with a MAF tune? It would seem like it would "trick" the PCM into letting me make more power since it would take care of part of the additional fueling.