dyno disaster
06-19-2011, 07:22 PM
#21
PS I see in the not too distant future, all dyno shops needing to be licensed or members of some organization, to not only help preventing things like this happening, but the issues with skirting the emission laws. Maybe SEMA or some other automotive based enity will step up to the bat, before the EPA decides its their job to control dyno tuning shops.
PS, just because you're a member of some organization does not guarantee this will never happen.
06-19-2011, 07:36 PM
#22
I agree, but if being a certified member means you went through some training, it should only bring good, to the industry. I know where you're coming from with your statement, for comparision I do a fair amount of HVAC work on my job, you need to be licensed to buy the refrigerant, to do the job, but in typical EPA fashion, to get the licensed, you only need to know the basics and the laws of proper handling and disposel of the refrigerant. You don't need to have a clue on how to troubleshoot a large chiller or even a simple heat pump. So lets hope the EPA never gets in charge
06-19-2011, 09:06 PM
#23
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dyno D When we fail to regulate ourselves then the government is forced to get involved! Therefore if we don't want the feds regulating the tuner industry, they need to get together and regulate themselves.
06-19-2011, 11:12 PM
#25
Once the car downshifted there was not much anyone could have done to prevent a mechanical over rev. Especially the tuner if he was not operating the car on the dyno. I guess the person operating the car on the dyno could have reacted and put the car in neutral, but by the time he realized what was going on it it was probably already too late and the damage was done. What does a picture prove? You know the engine over reved. It doesn't explain why the car downshifted. That is the only unknown you need to address. The only thing I will add is dyno operators should immediately put auto cars in neutral as soon as the pull ends just like you would immediately push in the clutch on a standard. It sounds like that wasn't done.
06-19-2011, 11:28 PM
#26
When I used to own a shop with a dyno I used to have people sign a waiver until my lawyer said I was wasting my time. He said people could sue with or without the waiver and he could easily win the case for me with or without it being signed. I don't remember what law he quoted but it was something about known risk involved with certain actions like on a dyno.
06-19-2011, 11:30 PM
#27
It wouldn't help anything. I have seen plenty of shops with ASE mechanics who I wouldnt let change my oil. I have also seen plenty "tuners" who went to some "school" and now have a certificate who are horrible. The same would happen with a dyno certificate.
06-20-2011, 08:21 AM
#28
These are two good points. In order to collect damages, you will probably have to show some sort of negligence. For instance, you could assert that the tuner was negligent in not shifting the car into neutral immediately after the pull, or maybe he failed to setup the software so it wouldn't downshift. Something along those lines is what a court would likely want to hear. Contrast this with "strict liability", where it would be the tuner's fault regardless of whether he was negligent or not. (This is not legal advice - for legal advice, contact a lawyer.)
Whenever I saw the "dyno disaster" title, I thought that maybe a car broke loose and ran someone over!!
Whenever I saw the "dyno disaster" title, I thought that maybe a car broke loose and ran someone over!!
The customer ALWAYS wants to blame anyone anyway they can in these situations. But when it comes down to it; unless you can prove that the dyno operator shifted the car into 2nd gear or did something else negligent, I think this is the customers responsibility. Its a chassis dyno test, a lot can go wrong in an instant.
06-20-2011, 09:14 AM
#29
What if the person in the car accidentally put it in 2nd instead of neutral? Brain fart? ....click...boom. all it takes is a second. Everyone makes mistakes. Of course im sure no one would ever admit that. People will find out what shop this is and how they take care of it will say a lot about them.
06-20-2011, 11:48 PM
#31
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That is a good point, should a shop be held liable if the car had a pre-existing condition. My car is a 2006 Pontiac Grand Prix GXP. The performance goals were well established before work began on the car. The transmission was built with these performance goals last July. The motor was assembled last fall with these performance goals. The engine was operating well under the performance goals when it was damaged on the dyno. Quick list of my mods; K&N intake, LS1 intake/fuel rail/injectors, heads ported and shaved .01,rockers/rods/dual springs, 056 Boss cam, headers, magnaflo cat back, bottom end refreshed, ls6 lifters and oil pump. Transmission; Built by TEP, street and strip model, 300 mm input shaft, 7/8 chain, 3.29 gear and upgraded TC. Last but not least Nitrous Outlet Wet Kit that was not in use during the dyno session. The kit is still not completely installed. I believe my car to be in excellent working order before somebody downshifted the car into 2nd gear at the end of the 4th dyno run.
06-21-2011, 12:58 PM
#32
If the person that was tuning the car was not inside the car at the time of the tune, and the tuner allowed a shop employee to sit in the driver’s seat, what is to say the employee accidently hit the paddle shifter causing the issue?
The tuner should not have allowed another person in the car unsupervised.
The OP doesnt have to prove anyting. he can take the tuner and the shop to court and show that I paid them for a service, they did not perform that service and caused damage.
Just as if you take you car there and the shop burns down you can still sue them for damages.
There has to be accountability held for the people. They should still even if it doesnt hold in court go over with the customer the riskes of tuning and tuning on a dyno. SOME may just say forget it if they are explained that there is a risk and we may damage your car.
The tuner should not have allowed another person in the car unsupervised.
The OP doesnt have to prove anyting. he can take the tuner and the shop to court and show that I paid them for a service, they did not perform that service and caused damage.
Just as if you take you car there and the shop burns down you can still sue them for damages.
There has to be accountability held for the people. They should still even if it doesnt hold in court go over with the customer the riskes of tuning and tuning on a dyno. SOME may just say forget it if they are explained that there is a risk and we may damage your car.
Last edited by bigboykilroy; 06-21-2011 at 01:07 PM.
06-21-2011, 03:29 PM
#33
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If the person that was tuning the car was not inside the car at the time of the tune, and the tuner allowed a shop employee to sit in the driver’s seat, what is to say the employee accidently hit the paddle shifter causing the issue?
The tuner should not have allowed another person in the car unsupervised.
The OP doesnt have to prove anyting. he can take the tuner and the shop to court and show that I paid them for a service, they did not perform that service and caused damage.
Just as if you take you car there and the shop burns down you can still sue them for damages.
There has to be accountability held for the people. They should still even if it doesnt hold in court go over with the customer the riskes of tuning and tuning on a dyno. SOME may just say forget it if they are explained that there is a risk and we may damage your car.
The tuner should not have allowed another person in the car unsupervised.
The OP doesnt have to prove anyting. he can take the tuner and the shop to court and show that I paid them for a service, they did not perform that service and caused damage.
Just as if you take you car there and the shop burns down you can still sue them for damages.
There has to be accountability held for the people. They should still even if it doesnt hold in court go over with the customer the riskes of tuning and tuning on a dyno. SOME may just say forget it if they are explained that there is a risk and we may damage your car.
I was not given a liability form to read and sign, I was not told of their liability policy. I was not given the opportunity to accept or reject their liability policy; it was secretly assigned to me. Because of my past business experience I can tell you that I would not have handed over my car to them.
I gave them a sound car and was given back a car on a tow truck and an attitude of we did nothing wrong and your problem is not ours.
06-21-2011, 03:34 PM
#34
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the wrong attitude
I gave them a sound car and was given back a car on a tow truck and an attitude of we did nothing wrong and your problem is not ours.
06-22-2011, 05:30 AM
#35
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#1 I would hope the shop has insurance for this type of issue.
#2 Am I the only one that understand this is a 4T65E Tap Shift Trans?
This trans was reworked for manual shifting.
#2 Am I the only one that understand this is a 4T65E Tap Shift Trans?
This trans was reworked for manual shifting.
06-22-2011, 09:41 AM
#36
Working with the OP, he sent me a video he was taking while the car was on the dyno. Not the video of the incident but just one while it was on its first pulls.
I pointed out to the OP that I can see the shop employee in the video with his hands next to the paddle shifters he is at first sitting in the drivers seat facing front like he is watching the rmp and speed, then he turns around so he can see what the tuner is doing on the passanger side rear of the car. With his hands still on the wheel.
To me it clearly shows the operator in the car not paying attention and could very easly hit the button while not watching what he is doing.
(hold your hands on your steering wheel and turn your body around to see the rear b pillar and see how your hands stretch and move)
I dont think the OP wants to post the video just incase he has to go to court.
But the video to me clearly shows without a doubt that the shop employee could have very easly messed up. and if I was that shop owner I would really start to work with this customer. Armed with this video he will be able to take that shop to court for damages.
I pointed out to the OP that I can see the shop employee in the video with his hands next to the paddle shifters he is at first sitting in the drivers seat facing front like he is watching the rmp and speed, then he turns around so he can see what the tuner is doing on the passanger side rear of the car. With his hands still on the wheel.
To me it clearly shows the operator in the car not paying attention and could very easly hit the button while not watching what he is doing.
(hold your hands on your steering wheel and turn your body around to see the rear b pillar and see how your hands stretch and move)
I dont think the OP wants to post the video just incase he has to go to court.
But the video to me clearly shows without a doubt that the shop employee could have very easly messed up. and if I was that shop owner I would really start to work with this customer. Armed with this video he will be able to take that shop to court for damages.
Last edited by bigboykilroy; 06-22-2011 at 09:46 AM.
06-22-2011, 10:01 AM
#37
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This tranmission has a different Valve Body. I think it has an additional valve. The case cover is different. The spacer plate is also different.
Manual Second Gear (With Touch Activated Power)
When the gear selector lever is moved to the Manual gear range, the manual valve moves and allows line pressure to enter the Braking fluid passage. The transmission reacts by shifting immediately into second gear range and is prevented from upshifting into either Third or Fourth gear.
This is different from other GM transmissions.
Also you don't use the same down shifting parameters as other cars. This trans will downshift into 2nd at higher speeds
Manual Second Gear (With Touch Activated Power)
When the gear selector lever is moved to the Manual gear range, the manual valve moves and allows line pressure to enter the Braking fluid passage. The transmission reacts by shifting immediately into second gear range and is prevented from upshifting into either Third or Fourth gear.
This is different from other GM transmissions.
Also you don't use the same down shifting parameters as other cars. This trans will downshift into 2nd at higher speeds
06-22-2011, 02:03 PM
#38
Having nothing to do with the situation, I can add that putting your car on a dyno is an inherently risky activity, just like drag racing, or sky diving. The vehicle owner should have have the common sense to know this, and with a good waiver the agree to it in writing before putting their car on the dyno. Typically a good waiver/release will protect a shop in all but cases of provable gross negligence.
I personally had a 2006 Grand Prix GXP...and while I am not sure what the the tuner did, or how the the car was set up...I KNOW my car had a ton of nannys on it, and in tap shift mode would not downshift if the computer thought it was unsafe. As stated abover however, this car does have a different trans that may allow this. I just can't see a tune being setup to allow a 3-2 downshift at 137mph? Has the trans been looked at for mechanical failure? My though is the transmission maybe lost 3rd gear during the run. Losing the gear created the over rev situation which cooked your motor.
I personally had a 2006 Grand Prix GXP...and while I am not sure what the the tuner did, or how the the car was set up...I KNOW my car had a ton of nannys on it, and in tap shift mode would not downshift if the computer thought it was unsafe. As stated abover however, this car does have a different trans that may allow this. I just can't see a tune being setup to allow a 3-2 downshift at 137mph? Has the trans been looked at for mechanical failure? My though is the transmission maybe lost 3rd gear during the run. Losing the gear created the over rev situation which cooked your motor.
Last edited by MarylandSpeed; 06-22-2011 at 02:18 PM.
06-22-2011, 06:27 PM
#39
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dyno disaster Here is what some people in the know believe;
There is a folder in the HPTuners editor called Transmission Diagnostics where you can find a few parameters that restrict gear command. Our STOCK numbers are set at 5500 rpm and 62 mph. The rpm and mph must be UNDER these two parameters to enable gear control. MY current modified file on the car is set at 6200 rpm and 188 mph. Looking at my scan, the mph was at 145 mph, below the 188 requirement, and rpm was at 6050 which is under the 6200 rpm requirement which will allow gear command. This explains not only how it is possible to occur but why guys with stock trans tunes or just ratio changes cannot command a downshift when going over a certain speed.
The TC used in my transmission package is not designed to be locked during WOT. The TC was locked during the dyno testing and could have been damaged. Debris could of then of been throw back into the transmission.
There is a folder in the HPTuners editor called Transmission Diagnostics where you can find a few parameters that restrict gear command. Our STOCK numbers are set at 5500 rpm and 62 mph. The rpm and mph must be UNDER these two parameters to enable gear control. MY current modified file on the car is set at 6200 rpm and 188 mph. Looking at my scan, the mph was at 145 mph, below the 188 requirement, and rpm was at 6050 which is under the 6200 rpm requirement which will allow gear command. This explains not only how it is possible to occur but why guys with stock trans tunes or just ratio changes cannot command a downshift when going over a certain speed.
The TC used in my transmission package is not designed to be locked during WOT. The TC was locked during the dyno testing and could have been damaged. Debris could of then of been throw back into the transmission.