Another $500 Dyno Tune....
11-22-2011, 02:32 PM
#41
What do you expect for a $500 tune? Most shops that specialize in certain models are $100.00 plus an hour. How long do most of you "at home tuners" spend personally on your cars to make sure that they are close to perfect? I bet you spend hours on your tune. No customer is going to pay for the time it actually takes to do a near perfect tune, that would be upwards of $750.00 easily for a tune. It's funny you spend upwards of $4k on heads, cam, LT's, intake and so on and you bitch about spending $500 for a tune. You get what you pay for, heavily modded cars can often take more than 5 hours to tune properly. Problem is the market has been cheapened by these "at home tuners" that pump out copied 2 year old tunes and pass them off in emails that sets the market price.
$500 is cheap for what you get most of the time. First you have to buy software (I've got over $35k invested) then you have to learn(minimum of 500hr's) then you need the dyno ($40-$70k). For $500 a tune it will take a minimum of 150 free tunes to pay for the equipment used, no pay for the employee.(roughly 600 man hours).
Look at it that way and you don't think tunes are that much $$...
11-22-2011, 03:00 PM
#42
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I could see the price going $750 plus for a tough setup such as a high lift/duration low LSA cam that does not want to idle set up for nitrous with complicated timing tables. But adjusting the timing, MAF, and VE tables on a stock motor with a positive displacement supercharger and headers is FAR from difficult, especially with a dyno for steady state tuning. Come on man, what are you smoking? Hell, I am an amateur and it takes me less than an hour to get that done now on the street.
Hindsight being what it is, I never would have messed with going to someone for something this easy....and sorry, this tune was easy. Is it really incorrect to assume that a person that supposedly does this for a living would not have additional experience to know what works and what does not? Don't get me wrong, it is pricey just for the tuning credit and dyno, lets even go $250 there, are you saying that a competent tuner cannot tune a car in two or three hours? I just can't see it taking that long on a relatively simple setup unless the tuner is completely incompetent, which seems to be the case here.
Edit: BTW - I was NOT bitching that it cost $500, I have been in the game for a while and know you have to pay to play. I am bitching because it was not done correctly when it could have been done the right way very easily...oh, and he set every DTC to "No Error Reported" in an effort to cover his tracks.
Hindsight being what it is, I never would have messed with going to someone for something this easy....and sorry, this tune was easy. Is it really incorrect to assume that a person that supposedly does this for a living would not have additional experience to know what works and what does not? Don't get me wrong, it is pricey just for the tuning credit and dyno, lets even go $250 there, are you saying that a competent tuner cannot tune a car in two or three hours? I just can't see it taking that long on a relatively simple setup unless the tuner is completely incompetent, which seems to be the case here.
Edit: BTW - I was NOT bitching that it cost $500, I have been in the game for a while and know you have to pay to play. I am bitching because it was not done correctly when it could have been done the right way very easily...oh, and he set every DTC to "No Error Reported" in an effort to cover his tracks.
11-22-2011, 03:09 PM
#43
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I could see the price going $750 plus for a tough setup such as a high lift/duration low LSA cam that does not want to idle set up for nitrous with complicated timing tables. But adjusting the timing, MAF, and VE tables on a stock motor with a positive displacement supercharger and headers is FAR from difficult, especially with a dyno for steady state tuning. Come on man, what are you smoking? Hell, I am an amateur and it takes me less than an hour to get that done now on the street.
Hindsight being what it is, I never would have messed with going to someone for something this easy....and sorry, this tune was easy. Is it really incorrect to assume that a person that supposedly does this for a living would not have additional experience to know what works and what does not? Don't get me wrong, it is pricey just for the tuning credit and dyno, lets even go $250 there, are you saying that a competent tuner cannot tune a car in two or three hours? I just can't see it taking that long on a relatively simple setup unless the tuner is completely incompetent, which seems to be the case here.
Edit: BTW - I was NOT bitching that it cost $500, I have been in the game for a while and know you have to pay to play. I am bitching because it was not done correctly when it could have been done the right way very easily...oh, and he set every DTC to "No Error Reported" in an effort to cover his tracks.
Hindsight being what it is, I never would have messed with going to someone for something this easy....and sorry, this tune was easy. Is it really incorrect to assume that a person that supposedly does this for a living would not have additional experience to know what works and what does not? Don't get me wrong, it is pricey just for the tuning credit and dyno, lets even go $250 there, are you saying that a competent tuner cannot tune a car in two or three hours? I just can't see it taking that long on a relatively simple setup unless the tuner is completely incompetent, which seems to be the case here.
Edit: BTW - I was NOT bitching that it cost $500, I have been in the game for a while and know you have to pay to play. I am bitching because it was not done correctly when it could have been done the right way very easily...oh, and he set every DTC to "No Error Reported" in an effort to cover his tracks.
Prices should be structured for tunes. Simple bolt-ons cost this much. Head and cam cars this much, N20 / Forced Induction this much.
Yes seasoned tuners know what to do quickly but remember that is "their" benefit not yours.
Last edited by HoP; 11-22-2011 at 03:12 PM. Reason: Added
11-22-2011, 07:04 PM
#44
I could see the price going $750 plus for a tough setup such as a high lift/duration low LSA cam that does not want to idle set up for nitrous with complicated timing tables. But adjusting the timing, MAF, and VE tables on a stock motor with a positive displacement supercharger and headers is FAR from difficult, especially with a dyno for steady state tuning. Come on man, what are you smoking? Hell, I am an amateur and it takes me less than an hour to get that done now on the street.
Hindsight being what it is, I never would have messed with going to someone for something this easy....and sorry, this tune was easy. Is it really incorrect to assume that a person that supposedly does this for a living would not have additional experience to know what works and what does not? Don't get me wrong, it is pricey just for the tuning credit and dyno, lets even go $250 there, are you saying that a competent tuner cannot tune a car in two or three hours? I just can't see it taking that long on a relatively simple setup unless the tuner is completely incompetent, which seems to be the case here.
Edit: BTW - I was NOT bitching that it cost $500, I have been in the game for a while and know you have to pay to play. I am bitching because it was not done correctly when it could have been done the right way very easily...oh, and he set every DTC to "No Error Reported" in an effort to cover his tracks.
Hindsight being what it is, I never would have messed with going to someone for something this easy....and sorry, this tune was easy. Is it really incorrect to assume that a person that supposedly does this for a living would not have additional experience to know what works and what does not? Don't get me wrong, it is pricey just for the tuning credit and dyno, lets even go $250 there, are you saying that a competent tuner cannot tune a car in two or three hours? I just can't see it taking that long on a relatively simple setup unless the tuner is completely incompetent, which seems to be the case here.
Edit: BTW - I was NOT bitching that it cost $500, I have been in the game for a while and know you have to pay to play. I am bitching because it was not done correctly when it could have been done the right way very easily...oh, and he set every DTC to "No Error Reported" in an effort to cover his tracks.
FYI- we have a full load dyno and find the street alot better to part throttle tune.
11-23-2011, 01:36 AM
#45
You need to learn how to read. I said for heavily modded cars....
Prices should be structured for tunes. Simple bolt-ons cost this much. Head and cam cars this much, N20 / Forced Induction this much.
Yes seasoned tuners know what to do quickly but remember that is "their" benefit not yours.
Prices should be structured for tunes. Simple bolt-ons cost this much. Head and cam cars this much, N20 / Forced Induction this much.
Yes seasoned tuners know what to do quickly but remember that is "their" benefit not yours.
Also on tuning you would never believe the number of hours I spent trouble shooting or fixing minor things that were wrong on customer cars just to be able to tune them. Or how many time I strapped a car on the dyno installed my wideband and was already to tune just to find something wrong on the base line pull.
I agree with how Slowhawk broke it down about the high cost. I easily had atleast $30,000 tied up in my HPT & EFI, plus another $5,000 in widebands then ad in the $30,000 for the dyno. Then factor in the hundreds if not thousands of hours learning tuning and then the countless hours you have to spend to learn the new ecm's every couple years when GM changes them. I always ended up buying almost every new model (camaro, corvette, TBSS, etc...) just so I could learn to tune them better.
I also agree with Slowhawk on about people tuning for years with no clue. I have seen tunes from guys who have been tuning for a living for many years and they are horrible. I honestly dont understand how someone cant accidentally get better when they have been tuning for so long. I think some of the tuning schools or classes out there dont help either. I have met several people who went to a 1 day class and then tried to start tuning for a living and thought they knew everything out there.
11-23-2011, 06:35 AM
#46
Also on tuning you would never believe the number of hours I spent trouble shooting or fixing minor things that were wrong on customer cars just to be able to tune them. Or how many time I strapped a car on the dyno installed my wideband and was already to tune just to find something wrong on the base line pull.
I agree with how Slowhawk broke it down about the high cost. I easily had atleast $30,000 tied up in my HPT & EFI, plus another $5,000 in widebands then ad in the $30,000 for the dyno. Then factor in the hundreds if not thousands of hours learning tuning and then the countless hours you have to spend to learn the new ecm's every couple years when GM changes them. I always ended up buying almost every new model (camaro, corvette, TBSS, etc...) just so I could learn to tune them better.
I also agree with Slowhawk on about people tuning for years with no clue. I have seen tunes from guys who have been tuning for a living for many years and they are horrible. I honestly dont understand how someone cant accidentally get better when they have been tuning for so long. I think some of the tuning schools or classes out there dont help either. I have met several people who went to a 1 day class and then tried to start tuning for a living and thought they knew everything out there.
I agree with how Slowhawk broke it down about the high cost. I easily had atleast $30,000 tied up in my HPT & EFI, plus another $5,000 in widebands then ad in the $30,000 for the dyno. Then factor in the hundreds if not thousands of hours learning tuning and then the countless hours you have to spend to learn the new ecm's every couple years when GM changes them. I always ended up buying almost every new model (camaro, corvette, TBSS, etc...) just so I could learn to tune them better.
I also agree with Slowhawk on about people tuning for years with no clue. I have seen tunes from guys who have been tuning for a living for many years and they are horrible. I honestly dont understand how someone cant accidentally get better when they have been tuning for so long. I think some of the tuning schools or classes out there dont help either. I have met several people who went to a 1 day class and then tried to start tuning for a living and thought they knew everything out there.
11-23-2011, 08:26 AM
#47
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11-23-2011, 09:23 AM
#49
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11-23-2011, 06:01 PM
#50
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Thanks Matt (outkast6991) and thunderstruck for the kind words! I always tried to make my customers happy when I was working at the shop - at least with the tuning portion (the only part I could control). I miss tuning (but doing it as a second job with a wife and baby daughter just doesn't work), so I still try to help guys out on here when I have time - keeps me involved in it to some degree and hopefully gives a hand to those trying to learn...
Everything the tuners said above is true... can't count the number of hours I wasted strapping down cars and installing a wideband only to find out the car was no where near ready to tune... true, sometimes it was the mechanics at the shop's fault, but many times it was the customer who did their own work. And then there are the people who put together a totally stupid combination of parts and then think I can work some kind of miracle with a laptop and make it all work together...
And buying unlimited cables, widebands, and dynos gets crazy expensive! Thats why after leaving the shop I worked at, I have a cable that I have to buy licenses for to do any tuning - a couple tunes here and there don't justify spending $10k on a cable...
It always amazed me that people would spend thousands of dollars on engines and parts, but bitch about $500 for the tune - without it, you have nothing - and if its not done right you could have a pile of broken parts.
If you need a tune, do your homework and find the happy customers with cars that drive right and make the power they should... then happily pay that tuner the price they ask - and if they do a great job, tell others so people don't get screwed by the jokers that are out there...
Everything the tuners said above is true... can't count the number of hours I wasted strapping down cars and installing a wideband only to find out the car was no where near ready to tune... true, sometimes it was the mechanics at the shop's fault, but many times it was the customer who did their own work. And then there are the people who put together a totally stupid combination of parts and then think I can work some kind of miracle with a laptop and make it all work together...
And buying unlimited cables, widebands, and dynos gets crazy expensive! Thats why after leaving the shop I worked at, I have a cable that I have to buy licenses for to do any tuning - a couple tunes here and there don't justify spending $10k on a cable...
It always amazed me that people would spend thousands of dollars on engines and parts, but bitch about $500 for the tune - without it, you have nothing - and if its not done right you could have a pile of broken parts.
If you need a tune, do your homework and find the happy customers with cars that drive right and make the power they should... then happily pay that tuner the price they ask - and if they do a great job, tell others so people don't get screwed by the jokers that are out there...
11-23-2011, 09:25 PM
#51
TECH Senior Member
+1 what Bret, Ed and Lorenz said above...
the tuner has invested big money to properly and effectively perform tuning... a proper tune is time/equipment intensive and so will not (and should not) be cheap;
the customer needs to budget for tuning (in the same manner as he did for the engine build), and look for quality and not cheapness;
the customer needs to do homework (talk to other satisfied tuning customers); and the customer also needs to make an effort to rectify any physical problems (either diy in a proper manner with tools/manuals, or take it to a reputable repair shop); and not just engine problems, but the whole car (especially brakes/suspension and leaks);
tuning cannot fix physical problems... a good tuner knows he can't start tuning, so he goes about fixing the physical problems as a courtesy to the customer (i.e. at his own time/expense); meanwhile of course, the customer is oblivious to this;
and after the customer receives a proper tune, he complains that the peak HP is 7 hp less than his buddy's (and, lol, fails to notice the driveability quality
) 
the tuner has invested big money to properly and effectively perform tuning... a proper tune is time/equipment intensive and so will not (and should not) be cheap;
the customer needs to budget for tuning (in the same manner as he did for the engine build), and look for quality and not cheapness;
the customer needs to do homework (talk to other satisfied tuning customers); and the customer also needs to make an effort to rectify any physical problems (either diy in a proper manner with tools/manuals, or take it to a reputable repair shop); and not just engine problems, but the whole car (especially brakes/suspension and leaks);
tuning cannot fix physical problems... a good tuner knows he can't start tuning, so he goes about fixing the physical problems as a courtesy to the customer (i.e. at his own time/expense); meanwhile of course, the customer is oblivious to this;
and after the customer receives a proper tune, he complains that the peak HP is 7 hp less than his buddy's (and, lol, fails to notice the driveability quality
)
11-24-2011, 06:02 AM
#52
imo i would rather give a customer something that runs great , ex ( tranny shifts like it should , nice and crisp not barking the tires , no knock retard , a lil lean on cruising but stoich at wot ... No my tunes might not make max power but i promise the couple hp you give up your tranny wont break nor will you cough a piston out of the oil pan... I give each one the choice ... I refuse to do "maxed out" shotty tunes ... Cause i wouldnt be able to sleep right at night knowing that my tune caused someone to break down !
So pretty easy choice in my eyes the 4-7 hp you loose on the big end you will deff notice in midrange power and drivibilty ...
Just my .02
So pretty easy choice in my eyes the 4-7 hp you loose on the big end you will deff notice in midrange power and drivibilty ...
Just my .02
running stoich @ WOT? 
11-26-2011, 03:24 PM
#57
TECH Senior Member
Yeah, I am puzzled by his response... 
anyone who uses HPTuners or EFILive has seen the wealth of information on both forums regarding WOT/AFR and the dangers of getting it wrong.
anyone who uses HPTuners or EFILive has seen the wealth of information on both forums regarding WOT/AFR and the dangers of getting it wrong.
09-30-2013, 10:30 AM
#58
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Just to add myself to the list of those that got screwed over by the cookie-cutter tuning by John Behe of Behe Performance, here's my horror story:
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12502194
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12502194
10-01-2013, 10:21 PM
#59
Just to add myself to the list of those that got screwed over by the cookie-cutter tuning by John Behe of Behe Performance, here's my horror story:
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12502194
http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12502194
