NVUSZ28

iTrader: (5)

I currently run in my T/A a high compression motor, on 104 unoxigenated, with a bunch of timing on it. I can run 110 leaded in it, which is actually readily available where I live, and cheaper than 104. I know that if I switch to a 91 pump gas tune, I'll lose about 25 rwhp.

I've been told by more than one person to look into E85. My questions.

What's the Octane Rating of E85?
Will I lose power switching from 104+ to E85?
Would you make the switch?
How much timing would I have to take out?
What's the disadvantage of E85?

murphinator

iTrader: (2)

depending on where you live it could be readily available or if in New England or Alaska you may be S.O.L so find out how available it is in the areas you plan to drive in. It takes approximately 30% more fuel than non ethanol gasoline so range is reduced. Fuel delivery system will likely need upgrades unless you have a lot of headroom in place , bigger fuel pump/pumps depending on power level and NA or FI , larger injectors , larger fuel lines in some cases, higher flowing fuel filter that is compatible with high concentration ethanol fuels , tuning to put the additional fueling in place properly.

my previous platform was boosted and I got good results in my limited experience blending e85 & gas , but schlepping cans of gas from Boston to Maine was a PITA.

spend some time researching in the forums where people are actively utilizing e85 there are alot of people negative to e85 and most have never used it most who have experienced it understand its value - especially when it gets hot out and you have to hot lap a car in finals and your getting cooler as your competition is overheating ! Most negatives have to do with corrosion, hydration , or unexplained debris and much of it has some truth but may be taken out of context and not relate to you and how you may use it.

examples:

corrosion , most of what you read about corrosion is referring to methanol ( wood alcohol) not Ethanol ( grain alcohol)

unexplained debris:

personal experience here , I used to work in the boat business and we had some issues when e10 was introduced but the newer boats ran fine we had 2 main issues with older ones

1. fiberglass tanks(very old boats) alcohol is a solvent - it will break down fiberglass and basically eat the tanks.

2. aluminum or plastic tanks on boats worse depending on age , gasoline is a dirty fuel tear any gas powered engine down and you will see discolorations and deposits everywhere well gasoline also leaves deposits on the inside of the tanks , fuel lines , carbs , injector screens,etc... over the years - now introduce a solvent to those systems and the varnish starts to break up and plug filters and screens ,fill carb bowls ,etc... once you get all the crud out then they run good again....

3. hydration (water) I would have to go refresh my memory on percentages but ethanol can only hold so much water/moisture before it drops out of suspension ( water and ethanol are attracted to each other) my state has been e10 at the pumps by law for at least 5 years I have no issues with my cars, boats ,trucks and I even have several LS1 f bodies that sit for 5 months and dont stabilize fuel or ethanol treatment or anything .A lot of the e85 swap guys will swap to racegas for long term storage to avoid potential issues.

late edit :you will lose some fuel economy due to the lower stoich on e85 to achieve lambda 1 9.8to 1 as I recall vs 14.7 for gas or 14.1 for e 10.

Its unfortunate all these flex fuel vehicles are out there but the fuel is so misunderstood/demonized . U.S. flex fuel vehicles are vehicles optimized to run gasoline but can also run ethanol, if you optimized to run ethanol ( added compression & timing) the vehicle could not run on gas without destroying itself , many 14 to 1 CR e85 builds out there and up to 19 to1 on e98 (indy cars)

ON a daily/commuter car running e85 exclusively you could run a lot of timing/compression and smaller engines with more boost and make up a lot of the lost economy but that is not how it has been implemented - A lot of money/special interest from big oil to keep it this way , hot rodders are the best to spread the real word we are the ones actually taking time to understand and use renewable ethanol fuels - anything that can be fermented can make ethanol , and its much simpler than pulling oil out of the ground ,shipping it back to the US to refine it , protecting its storage and transpotation with your armies - lots of diesel fuel to move this stuff around , power jeeps , humvees etc.... yet all you hear is how refining ethanol is not efficient lol anyone with a still can tell you its not rocket science....

dezlfrek

iTrader: (1)

thanks for taking the time to answer this without being a smart ***.. but Im making the switch from race gas to e85 because im wanting the benefits I have read of all along.. My question is im going to be mixing my own because its kind of a pain in the but to get e85 from 25 miles away and I can have drums delivered for no extra cost of pure alcohol. Anyway my question is there any benefit to using race gas as the 15%? I know the pump e85 is lowest octane gas mixed but im going to have a bit of 116 left over.

murphinator

iTrader: (2)

pure alcohol would be subject to heavy beverage taxation what you are referring to is likely E98 (98% etanol denatured with gasoline)

your race fuel will bump up the octane of the e85 slightly,that will only be of benefit if you need more octane than e85 blended with regular grade fuel provides I guess...

shipping usually kills a good part of the savings of swapping to e85 - are the drums coming from a source local to you ?

Hopefully at some point this forum adds a section specific to e85/e98 like many other performance platforms have so the answers are all in one place instead of sporadically mixed in with tuning subjects.

Other forums I frequent after adding a specific e85 section it ends up attracting its regulars with interest and knowledge on the subject and any misinformation gets put in its proper perspective pretty quickly and then the section can move on to making more power more easily with e85 , how to address its problems to minimize or eliminate them and quickly becomes a resource for members looking to make the swap.

dezlfrek

iTrader: (1)

yes there is a local to me petroleum supplier I used to buy race gas from that will deliver drums for free. Last I checked was 238 a drum with free delivery.
I also agree there should be E?? specific forums.. I have read lots and still have questions and find answers through reading and searching but having a constantly moving topic would be nice to keep info flowing.
thanks again.

murphinator

iTrader: (2)

thats over $4 a gallon , pump e85 is under $3 typically but still a much better deal than any other fuel with that type of octane rating

DietCoke

iTrader: (18)

When you switch, make sure to change all filters/fuel filters shortly afterwards. Since the alcohol will break down all the gasoline varnish and crap in your tank/pump/lines, it will flow through and get stuck in your fuel filter(s).

My car is 14.7:1 and it runs on e85, but will highway cruise on as low as an E40 blend. (1/3 e85 2/3 93 oct)

tiznodd

iTrader: (4)

Adam,

Keep in mind E85 needs less timing than race gas when you make the switch. I'm running pretty similar timing to what I was with 91/meth. I'd suggest getting a couple 55 gallon drums and getting the stuff out of the pump - it'll be cheapest that way. I haven't found much variance in ethanol content out here either. It's been pretty much spot-on 85% every time I've tested it. I made the switch a while ago and am loving everything but the fuel economy and that my fuel system is now on the edge of being adequate.

dezlfrek

iTrader: (1)

thanks for the input guys.
I have a 105 gallon tank in the bed of my truck so I plan on going to full that up and using this as my e85 gas station.. I will test it for sure also.
I am hoping the tuning will be much easier to find the happy medium. I am sending the carb out to kevin at csu in the next couple days as this was his blow through gas carb.. I changed the turbo last week from the on3 crap turbo to a bw 475/87/1.0.. and now im having tuning issues again, rich to the point of missfiring pre boost then lean to the point of popping lol.. I hope the tuning window is much much easier and kevin can hit it close when I get it back..
anyway thanks again guys for all your insight.

NVUSZ28

iTrader: (5)

Fuel economy is a non issue. Race car, don't really care. But I'm still iffy on if I would lose power. I love how much I make right now.

dezlfrek

iTrader: (1)

I have never heard of anyone claiming to have lost hp going to e85, on the contrary I mostly hear about faster more consistent times

dezlfrek

iTrader: (1)

I sent my carb out today while the car is getting the cage installed this week.. I cant wait

NVUSZ28

iTrader: (5)

From where I'm sitting, I hear nothing but good, I guess the only thing holding me back is a data sheet. Comparing racegas to e85. Does anyone have a link? I also have about as much advanced timing in the car as it will go. Two different people said that I will have to add more, one said I can take some out.

.boB

iTrader: (1)

Last seaon I switched my track/street car from race fuel to e85 (on the track). The car makes more power and runs better on e85 than it ever did on Sunoco 110. Vast improvement. Runs a lot cooler, too.

Based on the dyno testing, the engine needs less timing. That's because the alcohol flame front travels faster across the top of the piston.

I occasionally use e85 on the street, too. When it's hot or I travel to a lower altitude, it just runs better. We were in Moab with the car club. We were stuck at a construction zone, at a slow crawl. It was really hot. My car was the only one not having trouble with the heat.

My engine is fairly radical, with a lot of static and dynamic compression. For gas I run the mixture a bit rich. Helps keep it cool and running good when things get warmed up. E85 has about 75-80% of the BTUs as gasoline. In theory, you need to run it about 25% richer. But mine runs good at 15-20% richer. It's so cool and the octane is so high I can run a little bit leaner. I end up burning more fuel, but the cost is about the same.

I pump it straight out of the pump. I'v tested it a number of times, and in the summer it's very consistent.

The engine doesn't always start real well in cold weather with e85.

alcohol is hydrophyllic. It will attract water just sitting in your garage. If it's your DD, that probably won't matter.

NVUSZ28

iTrader: (5)

So would sta-bil be alright to put in e85, or if I leave it sitting would I have to drain the tank, and lines?

mike13

iTrader: (27)

On forced inducted cars on gasoline you tend to get a lot of black build up in the exhaust and anything around the exhaust, do you see the same thing on E85? Or does it burn cleaner?

dezlfrek

iTrader: (1)

what oil you guys use? I am putting my new motor together and want to run what is recommended by those who know if there is such a thing.

James@ShorTuning

Gotta be careful with blanket statements on what kind of timing is needed... I've seen some applications require less and I've seen some that like more. Mostly depends on what your changing from. In my case most setups are converting from 93 octane pump which are octane limited so more timing is possible under load.

Gains on a NA engine will mainly be determined by the setup. On setups that run well on pump gas there wont be much of a gain, however if you are picking up 25rwhp with race fuel over pump then E85 will most certainly make as good of power as the race fuel.

I did a test on a LS3 C6 with 11.5 compression going from pump 93 to E85 and it required 3 deg more timing to see a gain in HP. We tried 4 deg and it lost power. Here is a graph:

ws6guy27

iTrader: (31)

Not trying to jack thread. But I was considering making a switch from 104 to e85.. going be cr of 12.6.1... Also running a 200 shot with a standalone tho.. wondered what the power difference na would be.. and if it would effect the nitrous at all or be a fucked up situation lol