Need of injector data?
Need of injector data? I do a ton of reading to grasp the understanding and concept of anything car related. So i have read on a bunch of threads on different forums on the debate between which injector is better between Injector Dynamic both "FIC"(Fuel Injector Clinic/Fuel Injector Connection) and FID(Fuel Injector Development).
It seems that ID is the only company that provide actual injector data. My tuner prefers to use ID just because of having injector data. Also having convos with many different tuners,(some are well known, some are more on a local level) quite a few say: "I don't need no stinking injector data to tune with" and others just say: "I will not tune a car unless it is ID or the manufacturer provide their own injector data".
So my questions basically comes down to:
Does having injector data really matter when buying injectors other than ID?
Does that mean a "tuner" isnt a great tuner because he needs injector data?
I am just curious...... Thanks for any input
It seems that ID is the only company that provide actual injector data. My tuner prefers to use ID just because of having injector data. Also having convos with many different tuners,(some are well known, some are more on a local level) quite a few say: "I don't need no stinking injector data to tune with" and others just say: "I will not tune a car unless it is ID or the manufacturer provide their own injector data".
So my questions basically comes down to:
Does having injector data really matter when buying injectors other than ID?
Does that mean a "tuner" isnt a great tuner because he needs injector data?
I am just curious...... Thanks for any input
Any tune that I do will start with using the correct injector characterization data. It's one thing to say "I don't need no stinking injector flow data" and produce a WOT tune that shows acceptable AFR. But the real difference is in the idle and cruise (drive ability) portion of the tune. If you don't have the correct injector data, then you will have to manipulate a lot of idle airflow, VE, and MAF tables to compensate for non-linear flow areas of the injectors. With enough time you can get acceptable driveability but the key is "with enough time". If you are paying a tuner by the hour then you want to start him off with a good set of injectors. If you are doing the tune yourself and you have plenty of experience then your time may be cheap enough to dial in a calibration with "crap" injector data. I don't like FAST or Racetronix injectors. I've tuned several cars with them and end up fighting pesky driveability issues.
Thanks a lot for the response. Everything you said, is something that majority of the tuners that I was actually "interested" in tuning my vehicle said.
Some of the other tuners said that "tuners who can't tune without injector data just cant flat out tune". So hearing this had me reading a lot more and questioning my tuners ability tune. An oddly enough, the tuners that mentioned this charge by the hour, so suggesting cheaper injectors with no data seems like a great financial strategy for the tuner.
I see there is a lot of difference in opinions when it comes down to idle/cruise quality. A tuner that primarily tunes with injector data can easily see a night and day difference in idle/cruise quality on a car that didnt have injector data during time of tune.
So at this point, I do not even see the point of producing injectors with no data. But I do understand if the car is a dedicated track only car and not having data.
Some of the other tuners said that "tuners who can't tune without injector data just cant flat out tune". So hearing this had me reading a lot more and questioning my tuners ability tune. An oddly enough, the tuners that mentioned this charge by the hour, so suggesting cheaper injectors with no data seems like a great financial strategy for the tuner.
I see there is a lot of difference in opinions when it comes down to idle/cruise quality. A tuner that primarily tunes with injector data can easily see a night and day difference in idle/cruise quality on a car that didnt have injector data during time of tune.
So at this point, I do not even see the point of producing injectors with no data. But I do understand if the car is a dedicated track only car and not having data.
If you can't get honest, real world injector data, I wouldn't buy the injectors, period! If you look at ID's website, there is a write up by Dave Steck on there about how some others have "fudged" their data, or just copied ID's data, basically, because they didn't want to spend the time to get their own. In the end, if your buying big enough injectors then you just need to buy ID's IMO. I mean you can buy up to a 80# injector with good data cheap, as long as you don't have the short injectors. The 80# dekas work well, and have good driveability, with known data. If you need bigger, buy the good stuff if you want driveability, good tip in and decel. JMHO.
If you can't get honest, real world injector data, I wouldn't buy the injectors, period! If you look at ID's website, there is a write up by Dave Steck on there about how some others have "fudged" their data, or just copied ID's data, basically, because they didn't want to spend the time to get their own. In the end, if your buying big enough injectors then you just need to buy ID's IMO. I mean you can buy up to a 80# injector with good data cheap, as long as you don't have the short injectors. The 80# dekas work well, and have good driveability, with known data. If you need bigger, buy the good stuff if you want driveability, good tip in and decel. JMHO.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,145
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From: Saskatchewan, Canada - where arguing "DA" is for the slow and weak...
I would also add that the way some injector companies, tuners, and tuning schools treat the data as proprietary or a close-held industry secret undermines the nature of the hobby. The information should be available for those few who want it, and feel capable enough to do the work themselves.
That being said DSteck has been a great resource for tuning tools and theory, even when it might impact his bottom line. Plus, there are still a significant number of people paying for the convenience of having others build their cars for them and are happily ignorant to the details or where they come from.
Bottom line: injector data is a must for a quality tune.
That being said DSteck has been a great resource for tuning tools and theory, even when it might impact his bottom line. Plus, there are still a significant number of people paying for the convenience of having others build their cars for them and are happily ignorant to the details or where they come from.
Bottom line: injector data is a must for a quality tune.
I would also add that the way some injector companies, tuners, and tuning schools treat the data as proprietary or a close-held industry secret undermines the nature of the hobby. The information should be available for those few who want it, and feel capable enough to do the work themselves.
That being said DSteck has been a great resource for tuning tools and theory, even when it might impact his bottom line. Plus, there are still a significant number of people paying for the convenience of having others build their cars for them and are happily ignorant to the details or where they come from.
Bottom line: injector data is a must for a quality tune.
That being said DSteck has been a great resource for tuning tools and theory, even when it might impact his bottom line. Plus, there are still a significant number of people paying for the convenience of having others build their cars for them and are happily ignorant to the details or where they come from.
Bottom line: injector data is a must for a quality tune.
Makes things make a lot of sense. My favorite quote from some tuners that compare ID injectors to injectors with no data is: "they are the same injector but cheaper". Tickles me a little on the inside
