My review of my TERRIBLE experience with Livernois Motorsports
06-09-2016, 07:51 AM
#21
.....
Also, again, our tunes are NOT locked. We do use proprietary software, yes it changes things at a deeper level than 3rd party suites, yes it makes it so it must be returned to stock before someone else can tune it, but it does NOT lock it. Locking is something people do to keep cars hostage, we aren't doing that, which is exactly why we instructed you how to return it to stock. No one forced you to move to a combo we can't support. You chose to go down a path that we couldn't help with.....
Also, again, our tunes are NOT locked. We do use proprietary software, yes it changes things at a deeper level than 3rd party suites, yes it makes it so it must be returned to stock before someone else can tune it, but it does NOT lock it. Locking is something people do to keep cars hostage, we aren't doing that, which is exactly why we instructed you how to return it to stock. No one forced you to move to a combo we can't support. You chose to go down a path that we couldn't help with.....
06-09-2016, 09:49 AM
#22
Ummmm.....So you don't let people modify the tune that current resides in the ECU based on whatever mods were done last to the car, and you have to flash a stock program back in before making other changes......how is that not locking? The ONLY difference is when its locked you have to buy a new ECU to make changes, but if you load a Livernois tune and someone changes something stupid like tire size, they can't make that simple change themselves with HPT or EFI Live? I hardly consider that not locking your tune, if not physically, than in spirit you ARE locking them.
We understand how different this approach is compared to the norm, but we set ourselves down a path to do things better, and not just maintain the status quo many years ago, and it continues to prove itself as the right path. We know not everyone likes it, and that's fine. We aren't trying for world dominance, just building a loyal following that appreciates the way we do things.
Edit, when someone does use us for tuning, we also do updates, tweaks, and changes for almost everything we support at not cost when they have one of our devices as well, so it's also, not a money grab in that aspect. There have been customers that we have done quite literally over 100 tune changes due to mod changes, octane changes, location changes, and custom requests to fit their desires. All at no charge, but if they did a mod we can't support, we let them know of this and it's their decision on the next course.
Last edited by LivernoisMotorsports; 06-09-2016 at 10:10 AM.
06-09-2016, 10:12 AM
#23
You know quite well that there were many lies that were told to us, and about us. If memory serves, throughout the entire build we were told your car was a race car, put the nastiest cam in you can, I don't care about drivibility. Yet, when you got the car all of your posts were about how it's a daily driver and your wife uses it. Unfortunately being we never saw the car again, there was only so much we could do. But, 8 years ago vs. now is not even remotely a current picture of what our knowledge and capabilities are.
I am sorry, but we don't lie, in fact we go out of our way to be honest, often too honest about things. Things like this are why we keep such records.
We have no delusions here, we know that we can't please everyone, but there are thousands, upon thousands of success stories compared to a few that we couldn't appease. That doesn't stop us from trying, but we also have to be realistic. are there times that it's 100% on us? absolutely, and we own up to that when it does happen, any company that says anything other than this isn't being honest, but we also need to inform people when that isn't the case.
I am sorry, but we don't lie, in fact we go out of our way to be honest, often too honest about things. Things like this are why we keep such records.
We have no delusions here, we know that we can't please everyone, but there are thousands, upon thousands of success stories compared to a few that we couldn't appease. That doesn't stop us from trying, but we also have to be realistic. are there times that it's 100% on us? absolutely, and we own up to that when it does happen, any company that says anything other than this isn't being honest, but we also need to inform people when that isn't the case.
My experience isn't just from 8 years ago, I've fixed cars that have been at Livernois more recently. We have removed multiple ECM's and tuned it with HPtuners and the owners are shocked at the improvement. This was after the owners contacted you about returning the car back to stock and got the run around, or a fee was involved that cost more then just replacing the ECM outright.
It is what it is... I'm over it but I'm free to share my experience with others.
06-09-2016, 10:33 AM
#24
We aren't locking them, locking means preventing access on purpose to force the customer to continue dealing with you, or to spend money to take you out of the equation. This, is not what we do. If someone wants it back to stock, and has an older legacy build that didn't include our MyCalibrator tuner, and also doesn't have our unleashed interface, then they can ship the ECM to us and we return it to stock. Unfortunately, while you can get the job done without the deep access we have to the ECM in many cases, the results have far greater success when you can start controlling the logic rather than working against it. This is why we are selective on what we do as to do it to the level we are, means completely remapping the ECU in most cases, which isn't something that is going to be able to be done without the vehicle here for the base program development, and then do refining over time. This is why we buy the cars that we support because we do all of the base development, and then expand that knowledge into proven packages for those cars. Additionally, lets say it did read out and get loaded into a 3rd party suite. That suite might seem complete because it has 300-1300 parameters in it, until you realize that a modern process has about 16000. So usually, less than 10% is mapped out. Well, if something is changed that isn't mapped out, that effects another area that is, how would you know? It won't populate on a compare, so you can quite literally change something and have catastrophic effects by not having the full road map in front of you. So, while it wasn't by design, it does end up protecting quite a lot of potential disasters. By forcing a return to stock, it ensures that there isn't going to be the potential of this wreaking havoc for the next shop.
We understand how different this approach is compared to the norm, but we set ourselves down a path to do things better, and not just maintain the status quo many years ago, and it continues to prove itself as the right path. We know not everyone likes it, and that's fine. We aren't trying for world dominance, just building a loyal following that appreciates the way we do things.
Edit, when someone does use us for tuning, we also do updates, tweaks, and changes for almost everything we support at not cost when they have one of our devices as well, so it's also, not a money grab in that aspect. There have been customers that we have done quite literally over 100 tune changes due to mod changes, octane changes, location changes, and custom requests to fit their desires. All at no charge, but if they did a mod we can't support, we let them know of this and it's their decision on the next course.
We understand how different this approach is compared to the norm, but we set ourselves down a path to do things better, and not just maintain the status quo many years ago, and it continues to prove itself as the right path. We know not everyone likes it, and that's fine. We aren't trying for world dominance, just building a loyal following that appreciates the way we do things.
Edit, when someone does use us for tuning, we also do updates, tweaks, and changes for almost everything we support at not cost when they have one of our devices as well, so it's also, not a money grab in that aspect. There have been customers that we have done quite literally over 100 tune changes due to mod changes, octane changes, location changes, and custom requests to fit their desires. All at no charge, but if they did a mod we can't support, we let them know of this and it's their decision on the next course.
06-09-2016, 11:22 AM
#25
I don't care about drivibility as long as the car stays running and its not like a 235/242 cam is all that big to begin with, I've daily driven bigger cams as has my wife. The problem was with your tuning it cam surged and died if you hit the brakes even with a 3600 converter, a car dying in an intersection or coming to a red light is just not safe. You did make an attempt to correct the problem but your tuner only made it worse. It was finally fixed by removing the ECM you refused to put back to stock and installing a new ECM and tuning with HPtuners. Car no longer surged, no longer cutoff, it drove quite nice actually. Not to mention the back to back gains on the dyno were amazing.
My experience isn't just from 8 years ago, I've fixed cars that have been at Livernois more recently. We have removed multiple ECM's and tuned it with HPtuners and the owners are shocked at the improvement. This was after the owners contacted you about returning the car back to stock and got the run around, or a fee was involved that cost more then just replacing the ECM outright.
It is what it is... I'm over it but I'm free to share my experience with others.
My experience isn't just from 8 years ago, I've fixed cars that have been at Livernois more recently. We have removed multiple ECM's and tuned it with HPtuners and the owners are shocked at the improvement. This was after the owners contacted you about returning the car back to stock and got the run around, or a fee was involved that cost more then just replacing the ECM outright.
It is what it is... I'm over it but I'm free to share my experience with others.
We aren't infallible, but since you have done so many, shoot me over their names so I can discuss this with the sales team as we have an internal document specifically detailing the exact process and procedure in handling an ecm resetting and I can assure you, it's nothing remotely close to what you are implying. I would love to follow up with them and find out who they talked to, and when this happened
06-09-2016, 12:05 PM
#26
If you can flash the PCM/ECM using Tech2 or HPT/EFI_Live and overwrite it with another tune, then it's not locked.
A locked ECM doesn't give any read/write access at all. You need to replace it to tune or send it to be unlocked.
Just saying
A locked ECM doesn't give any read/write access at all. You need to replace it to tune or send it to be unlocked.
Just saying
06-09-2016, 01:11 PM
#27
I don't care about drivibility as long as the car stays running and its not like a 235/242 cam is all that big to begin with, I've daily driven bigger cams as has my wife. The problem was with your tuning it cam surged and died if you hit the brakes even with a 3600 converter, a car dying in an intersection or coming to a red light is just not safe. You did make an attempt to correct the problem but your tuner only made it worse. It was finally fixed by removing the ECM you refused to put back to stock and installing a new ECM and tuning with HPtuners. Car no longer surged, no longer cutoff, it drove quite nice actually. Not to mention the back to back gains on the dyno were amazing.
My experience isn't just from 8 years ago, I've fixed cars that have been at Livernois more recently. We have removed multiple ECM's and tuned it with HPtuners and the owners are shocked at the improvement. This was after the owners contacted you about returning the car back to stock and got the run around, or a fee was involved that cost more then just replacing the ECM outright.
It is what it is... I'm over it but I'm free to share my experience with others.
My experience isn't just from 8 years ago, I've fixed cars that have been at Livernois more recently. We have removed multiple ECM's and tuned it with HPtuners and the owners are shocked at the improvement. This was after the owners contacted you about returning the car back to stock and got the run around, or a fee was involved that cost more then just replacing the ECM outright.
It is what it is... I'm over it but I'm free to share my experience with others.
buuuttt they dont "LOCK" your ecm... LOL
06-09-2016, 02:37 PM
#28
If you read above, it wasn't a refusal, but a flaw that was unknown at the time in the checksumming when returning to stock that has been corrected for over 7 years now. We didn't know it then, had we known, we would have flashed it back to stock first, before tuning. So it wasn't a refusal, it was an impossibility. while the end result nets you the same, one is malicious, and the other was not.
06-10-2016, 09:40 AM
#29
Launching!
Just my $.02... Its not worth much... LOL I dont have much experience in the LS world and Im relatively new to tuning (2 years). This has been my experience with Livernois...
1. Lifter tap/click/noise. They shipped their cam/DOD delete kit with 7.400 pushrods. Eventually I had to purchase 7.425 pushrods to resolve the issue I was having. When I called Livernois about it, they told me it was the motor oil I was using.
2. I was messing with my injector timing. I called and asked for the FULL cam card. They sent me whats listed on their site. I called several times. Same answer. I REALLY only needed the intake centerline, duration at .006, intake valve opening/closing and a few other things. They REFUSED to tell me. I asked was this information a big secret. They said YES! Hell, I coulda yanked the cam and had someone put it on cam machine or some crap but WHY? And when I asked what numbers I should use for the injector timing, the answer I got was "We dont support HP Tuners". I eventually got my car dialed in myself.
In my opinion, they sell good stuff but unless you buy their tuner AND take your car to them for the labor to be done, youre SOL. Its like "I got your money... be gone peasant!"
SMH...
I have recommended friends buy their DOD delete kit because, in my opinion, its the most complete kit on the market (ARP stuff, etc). I never recommend them to buy their tuner though...
1. Lifter tap/click/noise. They shipped their cam/DOD delete kit with 7.400 pushrods. Eventually I had to purchase 7.425 pushrods to resolve the issue I was having. When I called Livernois about it, they told me it was the motor oil I was using.
2. I was messing with my injector timing. I called and asked for the FULL cam card. They sent me whats listed on their site. I called several times. Same answer. I REALLY only needed the intake centerline, duration at .006, intake valve opening/closing and a few other things. They REFUSED to tell me. I asked was this information a big secret. They said YES! Hell, I coulda yanked the cam and had someone put it on cam machine or some crap but WHY? And when I asked what numbers I should use for the injector timing, the answer I got was "We dont support HP Tuners". I eventually got my car dialed in myself.
In my opinion, they sell good stuff but unless you buy their tuner AND take your car to them for the labor to be done, youre SOL. Its like "I got your money... be gone peasant!"
SMH...
I have recommended friends buy their DOD delete kit because, in my opinion, its the most complete kit on the market (ARP stuff, etc). I never recommend them to buy their tuner though...
06-10-2016, 10:46 AM
#30
I dont have much experience in the LS world and Im relatively new to tuning (2 years). This has been my experience with Livernois...
1. Lifter tap/click/noise. They shipped their cam/DOD delete kit with 7.400 pushrods. Eventually I had to purchase 7.425 pushrods to resolve the issue I was having. When I called Livernois about it, they told me it was the motor oil I was using.
2. I was messing with my injector timing. I called and asked for the FULL cam card. They sent me whats listed on their site. I called several times. Same answer. I REALLY only needed the intake centerline, duration at .006, intake valve opening/closing and a few other things. They REFUSED to tell me. I asked was this information a big secret. They said YES! Hell, I coulda yanked the cam and had someone put it on cam machine or some crap but WHY? And when I asked what numbers I should use for the injector timing, the answer I got was "We dont support HP Tuners". I eventually got my car dialed in myself.
In my opinion, they sell good stuff but unless you buy their tuner AND take your car to them for the labor to be done, youre SOL. Its like "I got your money... be gone peasant!"
SMH...
I have recommended friends buy their DOD delete kit because, in my opinion, its the most complete kit on the market (ARP stuff, etc). I never recommend them to buy their tuner though...
1. Lifter tap/click/noise. They shipped their cam/DOD delete kit with 7.400 pushrods. Eventually I had to purchase 7.425 pushrods to resolve the issue I was having. When I called Livernois about it, they told me it was the motor oil I was using.
2. I was messing with my injector timing. I called and asked for the FULL cam card. They sent me whats listed on their site. I called several times. Same answer. I REALLY only needed the intake centerline, duration at .006, intake valve opening/closing and a few other things. They REFUSED to tell me. I asked was this information a big secret. They said YES! Hell, I coulda yanked the cam and had someone put it on cam machine or some crap but WHY? And when I asked what numbers I should use for the injector timing, the answer I got was "We dont support HP Tuners". I eventually got my car dialed in myself.
In my opinion, they sell good stuff but unless you buy their tuner AND take your car to them for the labor to be done, youre SOL. Its like "I got your money... be gone peasant!"
SMH...
I have recommended friends buy their DOD delete kit because, in my opinion, its the most complete kit on the market (ARP stuff, etc). I never recommend them to buy their tuner though...
As for the cam specs, you are correct, anything beyond the advertised numbers are indeed proprietary info. these aren't just a cam that is ordered to spec. We designed the entire lobe. .006, .050, .100, .150, etc. It's not just us shopping through a pre-existing lobe book and calling it "custom". every aspect of it is custom. But, I can tell you on the tuning side of things, doing things to work out on paper very rarely works. It's exciting when it does, but you can see by that cam there is very little overlap, often not requiring any changes in injector timing, but if they do (which is often more related to a preload issue, but not always) it's very minor.
06-10-2016, 10:58 AM
#31
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The only experience I ever had with Livernois was a quote for tuning. With mods in my signature they wanted $900. I was like umm no thanks lol. I can't say anything else good or bad, but i'm sorry, that's ridiculous for a tune
06-10-2016, 12:53 PM
#32
lol...
I'll ask and see if they want to disclose their situation.
But it was a flaw that you couldn't properly tune a Livernois cam that was installed with Livernois heads by a Livernois tech on your Livernois dyno. Pretty much a perfect scenario for you guys to get it right and you failed.
Livernois also said they would have the job done in a week which was part of my agreement to the deal. Instead it took over two weeks to complete a basic cam swap. Some people call that a lie... others call it the shop two week rule.
It is what it is... I didn't have a garage to do the work myself at the time so I deferred to a shop that stated they could handle the work in the timeframe I desired. Ah well live and learn. Certainly a lesson learned to never pay for a tune you cant adjust yourself! The ECM belongs to the owner of the car and should be able to be changed by the owner of the car. Don't fall for the its not locked we just use proprietary software excuse! If you cant plug in your computer and adjust your tune to suite your needs then its locked, plain and simple. I will compliment Livernois on forcing me to learn HPtuners, that was a pretty sweet deal!
Even if you take your car to them you still get sewing machine noise! They did my cam swap in house and still didn't get the pushrod length correct, not exactly shocking given the other issues I had.
Personally I think Brian Tooley has better prices, is more open with cam specs and has much better customer service!
We have never, nor will ever charge a fee to return an ECM to stock. And unfortunately, you aren't getting first hand information in these situations. I can tell you the amount of requests we get are less than 5 a year for this, and that's from over 10 years of these. And I can tell you every time it has been the same operation. We tell someone to ship it in, and include a call tag so they have to give us 0 dollars. Not even shipping. Your car was a special case with the ECM, something we have since remedied. since your car came in with another tune already installed, there was a flaw in the return to stock process. today, 8 years later, that has long been fixed so that those situations can't happen any longer because we don't want it to ever happen, because we aren't doing it to hold people hostage or to complicate matters. Also, by doing our own software inhouse it's allowed us to ensure no errors in the software exist. We used to be no different than many other shops, using 3rd party suites to get everything done, but when we found we were telling those companies how to add things in, how to fix errors in their software, and they monitized those fixes, we decided to keep it all inhouse.
We aren't infallible, but since you have done so many, shoot me over their names so I can discuss this with the sales team as we have an internal document specifically detailing the exact process and procedure in handling an ecm resetting and I can assure you, it's nothing remotely close to what you are implying. I would love to follow up with them and find out who they talked to, and when this happened
We aren't infallible, but since you have done so many, shoot me over their names so I can discuss this with the sales team as we have an internal document specifically detailing the exact process and procedure in handling an ecm resetting and I can assure you, it's nothing remotely close to what you are implying. I would love to follow up with them and find out who they talked to, and when this happened
If you read above, it wasn't a refusal, but a flaw that was unknown at the time in the checksumming when returning to stock that has been corrected for over 7 years now. We didn't know it then, had we known, we would have flashed it back to stock first, before tuning. So it wasn't a refusal, it was an impossibility. while the end result nets you the same, one is malicious, and the other was not.
Livernois also said they would have the job done in a week which was part of my agreement to the deal. Instead it took over two weeks to complete a basic cam swap. Some people call that a lie... others call it the shop two week rule.
It is what it is... I didn't have a garage to do the work myself at the time so I deferred to a shop that stated they could handle the work in the timeframe I desired. Ah well live and learn. Certainly a lesson learned to never pay for a tune you cant adjust yourself! The ECM belongs to the owner of the car and should be able to be changed by the owner of the car. Don't fall for the its not locked we just use proprietary software excuse! If you cant plug in your computer and adjust your tune to suite your needs then its locked, plain and simple. I will compliment Livernois on forcing me to learn HPtuners, that was a pretty sweet deal!
I dont have much experience in the LS world and Im relatively new to tuning (2 years). This has been my experience with Livernois...
1. Lifter tap/click/noise. They shipped their cam/DOD delete kit with 7.400 pushrods. Eventually I had to purchase 7.425 pushrods to resolve the issue I was having. When I called Livernois about it, they told me it was the motor oil I was using.
2. I was messing with my injector timing. I called and asked for the FULL cam card. They sent me whats listed on their site. I called several times. Same answer. I REALLY only needed the intake centerline, duration at .006, intake valve opening/closing and a few other things. They REFUSED to tell me. I asked was this information a big secret. They said YES! Hell, I coulda yanked the cam and had someone put it on cam machine or some crap but WHY? And when I asked what numbers I should use for the injector timing, the answer I got was "We dont support HP Tuners". I eventually got my car dialed in myself.
In my opinion, they sell good stuff but unless you buy their tuner AND take your car to them for the labor to be done, youre SOL. Its like "I got your money... be gone peasant!"
SMH...
I have recommended friends buy their DOD delete kit because, in my opinion, its the most complete kit on the market (ARP stuff, etc). I never recommend them to buy their tuner though...
1. Lifter tap/click/noise. They shipped their cam/DOD delete kit with 7.400 pushrods. Eventually I had to purchase 7.425 pushrods to resolve the issue I was having. When I called Livernois about it, they told me it was the motor oil I was using.
2. I was messing with my injector timing. I called and asked for the FULL cam card. They sent me whats listed on their site. I called several times. Same answer. I REALLY only needed the intake centerline, duration at .006, intake valve opening/closing and a few other things. They REFUSED to tell me. I asked was this information a big secret. They said YES! Hell, I coulda yanked the cam and had someone put it on cam machine or some crap but WHY? And when I asked what numbers I should use for the injector timing, the answer I got was "We dont support HP Tuners". I eventually got my car dialed in myself.
In my opinion, they sell good stuff but unless you buy their tuner AND take your car to them for the labor to be done, youre SOL. Its like "I got your money... be gone peasant!"
SMH...
I have recommended friends buy their DOD delete kit because, in my opinion, its the most complete kit on the market (ARP stuff, etc). I never recommend them to buy their tuner though...
Even if you take your car to them you still get sewing machine noise! They did my cam swap in house and still didn't get the pushrod length correct, not exactly shocking given the other issues I had.
Personally I think Brian Tooley has better prices, is more open with cam specs and has much better customer service!
06-10-2016, 02:44 PM
#34
Launching!
Installed the 7.425 pushrods and viola! No more 1500-2000 RPM CLACK CLACK CLACK.
Still sounds like Grandma's old Singer sewing machine... LOL!
06-11-2016, 09:16 AM
#35
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I have many times put custom operating systems in with Efi live then someone with hp tuners can't tell me I locked the tune. They just don't have the same software.
Weather they use proprietary software or tuner cats to to it you still can't edit it but by no means is it locked. It's just a costum operating system.
That said I have no experience with them other than getting a quote for Dyno time that was reasonable. I just don't want tuners using custom operating systems seen as locking tunes.
06-11-2016, 12:13 PM
#36
Just jumping in cause I think it's an important note that just because you can't edit it doesn't mean it's locked.
I have many times put custom operating systems in with Efi live then someone with hp tuners can't tell me I locked the tune. They just don't have the same software.
Weather they use proprietary software or tuner cats to to it you still can't edit it but by no means is it locked. It's just a costum operating system.
That said I have no experience with them other than getting a quote for Dyno time that was reasonable. I just don't want tuners using custom operating systems seen as locking tunes.
I have many times put custom operating systems in with Efi live then someone with hp tuners can't tell me I locked the tune. They just don't have the same software.
Weather they use proprietary software or tuner cats to to it you still can't edit it but by no means is it locked. It's just a costum operating system.
That said I have no experience with them other than getting a quote for Dyno time that was reasonable. I just don't want tuners using custom operating systems seen as locking tunes.
06-18-2016, 08:17 AM
#39
Good luck! The BBB in my state (Ohio) is absolutely worthless. The last time I filed a complaint, they gave me 48 hours to respond. The company I had the complaint against had who knows how long, so like a week or so later, I would get their reply and if I did not respond in 48 hours, it defaulted in their favor. I "won", but the company never gave me what they promised so I filed another complaint on the original complaint. It was rejected by the BBB stating the case was resolved and I was a happy camper. BS.
Go to the Attorney General's office if you think you were screwed or your credit card company. They actually get things done.
You are going to have a hard time though. Your complaint is like saying you can't run your Microsoft program on an Apple computer, or you can't use your Android phone with ITunes to get music. They are all going to tell you to buy the Apple computer and use it. Same concept.
Go to the Attorney General's office if you think you were screwed or your credit card company. They actually get things done.
You are going to have a hard time though. Your complaint is like saying you can't run your Microsoft program on an Apple computer, or you can't use your Android phone with ITunes to get music. They are all going to tell you to buy the Apple computer and use it. Same concept.
