e85 Addicts! Users chime in
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 60
Likes: 1
e85 Addicts! Users chime in Hi all!
I finally got sick of inconsistent pump Unleaded and over pulling timing to stop my N/A LS1 383 stroker from knocking its way to death. Installed a 340lph e85 safe pump and a set of Seimans Deka 80lb injectors. Filled up a fresh tank of corn juice and started tuning. I am instantly hooked on this fuel it has made my pig of thing that couldn't drive below 2500rpm without bucking and knocking into a sweet smelling magic carpet ride all the way down to 2k rpm and lower (rather large 248/258 112lsa).
So far I have the basics of my "Speed Density Open Loop" tune sorted and the VE table somewhat dialed in. My motor seems to like a Lambda of .92-.93 at part throttle cruise and I have my PE set to .80 as a safe start to dial in the high kpa areas of the VE table. My part throttle areas feel a little weak at the moment I will try to move the afr's around a bit to see if that helps. I haven't played around with the spark yet either just trying to get things ironed out.
I am looking for what other people have run as far as AFR goes and what you liked best. Any other tricks or advice would be awesome 👍
I finally got sick of inconsistent pump Unleaded and over pulling timing to stop my N/A LS1 383 stroker from knocking its way to death. Installed a 340lph e85 safe pump and a set of Seimans Deka 80lb injectors. Filled up a fresh tank of corn juice and started tuning. I am instantly hooked on this fuel it has made my pig of thing that couldn't drive below 2500rpm without bucking and knocking into a sweet smelling magic carpet ride all the way down to 2k rpm and lower (rather large 248/258 112lsa).
So far I have the basics of my "Speed Density Open Loop" tune sorted and the VE table somewhat dialed in. My motor seems to like a Lambda of .92-.93 at part throttle cruise and I have my PE set to .80 as a safe start to dial in the high kpa areas of the VE table. My part throttle areas feel a little weak at the moment I will try to move the afr's around a bit to see if that helps. I haven't played around with the spark yet either just trying to get things ironed out.
I am looking for what other people have run as far as AFR goes and what you liked best. Any other tricks or advice would be awesome 👍
If you think pump unleaded is inconsistent, you have no idea what you are in for with E85. The only thing keeping you from ripping your hair out already is the large tuning window ethanol provides. E85 could easily be anything from E60 to E95 depending on the pump, and this doesn't even account for the various water content. Even if you never run unleaded gas, you still need an alcohol sensor just to account for the tremendous variation in E85. Otherwise, you will be chasing your tail trying to dial in a VE table, or just letting trims take over and giving up on tuning.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 60
Likes: 1
Pump e85 in Australia is quite good. The 15% is premium unleaded 98ron and the consistency is really good considering. It is the equivalent to 107ron and ethanol content is usually close enough to 85% although I haven't done any long term testing myself. Being open loop and a weekend drag car I keep a good eye on afrs and knock anyway so the trade off for me isn't that bad for me. Would not be worth it for a daily driver.
I am very new to tuning so after some good advice in that direction.
I am very new to tuning so after some good advice in that direction.
Teching In
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
My experience its pretty consistent in AZ... we now have E54 for flex. I run 50/50, so E32-ish and I haven't seen a need for more. I'm only cam and CAI though, but in 100deg ambient and 230 ECT on track with no KR.
50/50 the variations are less, but 10% swings either way, I think no biggy. Cause you richer with less E and vise versa which is what you'd want. I run CL and fatten to .85 in the top.
If I was tuning OL, I'd target stoich for cruise with slight fattening per MAP and lower your TPS% for PE to kick in sooner. Supposedly you can run pretty lean (maybe 1.05) at p/t with E although I've never tried it.
50/50 the variations are less, but 10% swings either way, I think no biggy. Cause you richer with less E and vise versa which is what you'd want. I run CL and fatten to .85 in the top.
If I was tuning OL, I'd target stoich for cruise with slight fattening per MAP and lower your TPS% for PE to kick in sooner. Supposedly you can run pretty lean (maybe 1.05) at p/t with E although I've never tried it.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 60
Likes: 1
The strange thing is its really not taking to timing like I thought it would. I was limited by knock on pump gas and thought e85 would give me a little more room for safety but I actually heard it ping a couple times today. I have only 22 degrees at WOT and a very smooth conservative table throughout. Running .93 lambda at part throttle cruise and .80 at WOT. Got a fair bit of KR at wide open as well.
I have good fuel pressure and not leaning out at all. Motor is a fresh build in good health not burning any oil. I'm really confused. Any ideas?
I have good fuel pressure and not leaning out at all. Motor is a fresh build in good health not burning any oil. I'm really confused. Any ideas?
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 24,241
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From: Turnin' Wrenches Infractions: 005
I was actually talking to a tuning buddy last night about this. He said there isnt much timing to be gained NA swapping to e85. I would have thought different but he says in his logging so far no go.
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Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 59
Likes: 1
The strange thing is its really not taking to timing like I thought it would. I was limited by knock on pump gas and thought e85 would give me a little more room for safety but I actually heard it ping a couple times today. I have only 22 degrees at WOT and a very smooth conservative table throughout. Running .93 lambda at part throttle cruise and .80 at WOT. Got a fair bit of KR at wide open as well.
I have good fuel pressure and not leaning out at all. Motor is a fresh build in good health not burning any oil. I'm really confused. Any ideas?
I have good fuel pressure and not leaning out at all. Motor is a fresh build in good health not burning any oil. I'm really confused. Any ideas?
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 24
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You are seeing afr on a WB? Maybe check the other bank... if big diff, could be injector. My experience with E, including turbo BMW, it’s tough to knock. And should be able to go past MBT with NA LSx without knock I’d think.
Unless you up the CR, most NA setups aren't timing limited. They can take more timing than what adds power. Regardless, there is power to be made from the extra oxygen carried by alcohol fuels.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 60
Likes: 1
Had the chance to do a few WOT runs today. I was getting knock with only 20*!!! Starting to think it's more of a pre-ignition problem rather than detonation. Thinking I may have a hot spot like the plug tip or something. Guys with big boost on e85 run more timing without problems. My comp is around 11.5:1 so e85 should be able to handle that with ease.
Bus Fuel = E-95 ? Hi 92, What is the EMS you run ?
What is the TW tooth count 24 OR 58 ?
The chance of a Not At TDC 0* reference could explain the cause ?
Do you have E-95 in your area ?
Lance
What is the TW tooth count 24 OR 58 ?
The chance of a Not At TDC 0* reference could explain the cause ?
Do you have E-95 in your area ?
Lance
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 60
Likes: 1
Running the factory 24x and p01 ecu. Are you thinking its possible more timing advance is being delivered while logging lower numbers? I will perform a CASE Relearn and see if that helps.
I do have a good quality catch can that does catch alot of oil but there is still a small coating of oil in the intake manifold. Don't think it would be enough to cause problems though.
Thanks
Last edited by toolbag92; Jan 1, 2018 at 12:43 AM.
TW TDC Position + CAS Position Hi 92, I have measured TDC "0" on MANY 24xe with a common range of 11*-13.5* OUT OF POSITION.
YES, do the "relearn".
That was my point.
Lance
YES, do the "relearn".
That was my point.
Lance
So Lance,
You are saying the reluctor wheel was mis-indexed by that amount?
i’ve read a lot about the LS platform and have not heard of this.
I’ve also tuned a lot of these and never found any to require whacky tuning to get them to run.
Of course to check this you need a degrees balancer along with a timing pointer aligned to the 0 mark with the #1 piston at true TDC.
Easy to set up on the engine stand but quite difficult in the car......
OP, I’m wondering if you are experiencing false knock. Could be due to mech noise, faulty sensors etc.
Hard to believe an NA engine would knock on E85.
You are saying the reluctor wheel was mis-indexed by that amount?
i’ve read a lot about the LS platform and have not heard of this.
I’ve also tuned a lot of these and never found any to require whacky tuning to get them to run.
Of course to check this you need a degrees balancer along with a timing pointer aligned to the 0 mark with the #1 piston at true TDC.
Easy to set up on the engine stand but quite difficult in the car......
OP, I’m wondering if you are experiencing false knock. Could be due to mech noise, faulty sensors etc.
Hard to believe an NA engine would knock on E85.
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 60
Likes: 1
I believe it's more likely false knock as I noticed if I start the scanner on a cold start I get a fair bit of knock retard until the motor warms up. Probably picking up the forged piston slapping until they get some heat into them. Once warm I still get a bit if kr at idle so I think my sensors are a little sensitive?
On a more upsetting note. I tried the crank relearn today and I couldn't reach cutoff as it went way past 4k rpm. I hit 6-6.5k and the engine rattled a bit so I let off straight away and now I have a louder than usual "tick tick tick" coming from my valvetrain. Is it possible I have bent pushrods from floating a valve or two? The car doesn't drive any different seems to run fine just lots of ticking. Sound like its coming from one cylinder on bank 1. The springs are duals rated for the lift of my cam and were tested by the machine shop when my motor was built.
This thing is driving me nuts
On a more upsetting note. I tried the crank relearn today and I couldn't reach cutoff as it went way past 4k rpm. I hit 6-6.5k and the engine rattled a bit so I let off straight away and now I have a louder than usual "tick tick tick" coming from my valvetrain. Is it possible I have bent pushrods from floating a valve or two? The car doesn't drive any different seems to run fine just lots of ticking. Sound like its coming from one cylinder on bank 1. The springs are duals rated for the lift of my cam and were tested by the machine shop when my motor was built.
This thing is driving me nuts
Staging Lane
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 59
Likes: 1
I believe it's more likely false knock as I noticed if I start the scanner on a cold start I get a fair bit of knock retard until the motor warms up. Probably picking up the forged piston slapping until they get some heat into them. Once warm I still get a bit if kr at idle so I think my sensors are a little sensitive?
On a more upsetting note. I tried the crank relearn today and I couldn't reach cutoff as it went way past 4k rpm. I hit 6-6.5k and the engine rattled a bit so I let off straight away and now I have a louder than usual "tick tick tick" coming from my valvetrain. Is it possible I have bent pushrods from floating a valve or two? The car doesn't drive any different seems to run fine just lots of ticking. Sound like its coming from one cylinder on bank 1. The springs are duals rated for the lift of my cam and were tested by the machine shop when my motor was built.
This thing is driving me nuts
On a more upsetting note. I tried the crank relearn today and I couldn't reach cutoff as it went way past 4k rpm. I hit 6-6.5k and the engine rattled a bit so I let off straight away and now I have a louder than usual "tick tick tick" coming from my valvetrain. Is it possible I have bent pushrods from floating a valve or two? The car doesn't drive any different seems to run fine just lots of ticking. Sound like its coming from one cylinder on bank 1. The springs are duals rated for the lift of my cam and were tested by the machine shop when my motor was built.
This thing is driving me nuts