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Simple, Run the Cam Sensor "Pick-Up Wheel" 180 degrees from the normal Chevy/Clockwise location.
A picture to help explain as I'm terrible at explaining things......1x Cam Gear, If it were to spin counter clockwise, The raised portion of the cam gear would need to be 180 degrees from where it is now to give the same signal as before.....I hope this helps?
No need to reinvent the wheel....he already has a pickup coil that can be used as a cam sensor
No need to do any thing like that. His tune would come from an Express van...make it a 2500 and you've got your 4l80E trans already in the tune.
Yes, but he is putting this into a 99 bird. That car never had a 4l80 in it, therefore his harness will need to be modified. I've done it both ways on 4th gen Camaros. The tune is one thing, wiring is another. Adding the ISS is pretty easy, and changing the 3-2 solenoid wires in the PCM or the plug is easy too. That has to happen either way. Whether doing it through a relay, or re-pin.
I thought some more about this setup. I think everyone agrees you have to get the rpm signal to the PCM in 24x format, and cam signal in 1x. So once that's figured out, then there a few other things I would look into. The PCM should be completely compatible to your car... as far as the connectors are concerned because 99 was the first year they used the 0411. Just be glad it's not a 98. So that should work, minus the harness mod you have to do to run the 80. I could be wrong on that, since I don't mess with T/A's all that often.
Next few points of interest In my mind are:
1. IAT sensor... mount this in your intake behind your TB. You are looking to run boost, boost causes heat. That means you'll want your IAT in the intake and not the filter.
2. ECT sensor. This shouldn't be too hard to convert over. I don't know if the threads will match from the LS to your block. I'd check that too.
3. I see no reason an IAC would not work since you are using an LS1 TB.
4. INJECTORS. The stock LS1 injectors are not going to cut it for this set up. I'm at 427ci N/A and it's over 70 lbs/hr flow rate, and injector duty cycle still reaches 65-70%. Which is fine. Your stock ones will be maxed out, especially into boost.
5. Fuel pump. Referring to the above issue, your stock fuel pump will drop off at higher rpm. A walbro or dual set up can easily correct this.
6. MAP sensor. Again, mounted in intake, but you'll want to get at least a 2 bar sensor for boost. You'll need to send your tune in and have it converted to 2 or 3 bar speed density.
7. MAF... you won't need this since you'll have a SD set up OS. Besides, it's hard coded to 512 g/s limit so in order to even bother with it you'd have to scale your tune significantly. Mine hits over 600 g/s on "stock" injector data, no scaling.
8. Your VSS should work fine for trans shifting and speedo readout. The plugs are the same on the 80 as the one on the 60. Hook your stock VSS plug the the REAR sensor.
9. Depending on the year of the 80, it might have a built in neutral safety switch. 04 and up I believe. Not positive on the year. This you can ditch too since on 4th gens it's built into the shifter linkage.
As I think of more I'll post it up. Let us know how it's coming along. I'd love to see this thing out on the street.
No need to reinvent the wheel....he already has a pickup coil that can be used as a cam sensor
The magnetic pick-up produces a AC sine wave signal, How is that compatible with the PCM? Use of a Ignition Control Module? I'm guessing that the pole piece would need modification?
I'm curious of how this would work if you don't mind sharing??
What I was eluding to is the use of a CMP & Shutter Wheel from a 90's Vortec truck installed in his Distributor to produce the 1X DC square wave signal.
The magnetic pick-up produces a AC sine wave signal, How is that compatible with the PCM? Use of a Ignition Control Module? I'm guessing that the pole piece would need modification?
I'm curious of how this would work if you don't mind sharing??
What I was eluding to is the use of a CMP & Shutter Wheel from a 90's Vortec truck installed in his Distributor to produce the 1X DC square wave signal.
The pickup coil in the Vortec 5.0/5.7 produces the 1x signal. It's not the same type of pickup coil I posted a picture of but you get the idea. He woulds need to take the pickup coil and reluctor out of the vortec distributor and modify them them for his pontiac to make it an exact match. But....there are so many different types of pickup coils these days I'm sure a direct drop in could be found that would also be comparable.
I thought some more about this setup. I think everyone agrees you have to get the rpm signal to the PCM in 24x format, and cam signal in 1x. So once that's figured out, then there a few other things I would look into. The PCM should be completely compatible to your car... as far as the connectors are concerned because 99 was the first year they used the 0411. Just be glad it's not a 98. So that should work, minus the harness mod you have to do to run the 80. I could be wrong on that, since I don't mess with T/A's all that often.
To use coil on plug you would need the 24x signal but to run it with a distributor you would only need a 4x signal from the crank.
To use coil on plug you would need the 24x signal but to run it with a distributor you would only need a 4x signal from the crank.
But does this work with the 0411 PCM he has? I don't think the 0411 will accept anything but 24x. The PCM uses crank position to fire the injectors, in reference periods after TDC. That becomes a serious issue if the PCM doesn't know where the crank is in relation to the cam, or miscalculates it. If he had an earlier PCM, then I could see that working.
If the 0411 accepted other signals, then anyone could just run a gen IV 58x with no issues. That is not the case though. The signal must be converted to 24x.
Who knows? Maybe there is someone that makes a 4x to 24x signal conversion similar to the one lingenfelter makes.
The 4x might work to fire the spark, but I highly doubt it would work for the injectors.
But does this work with the 0411 PCM he has? I don't think the 0411 will accept anything but 24x. The PCM uses crank position to fire the injectors, in reference periods after TDC. That becomes a serious issue if the PCM doesn't know where the crank is in relation to the cam, or miscalculates it. If he had an earlier PCM, then I could see that working.
If the 0411 accepted other signals, then anyone could just run a gen IV 58x with no issues. That is not the case though. The signal must be converted to 24x.
Who knows? Maybe there is someone that makes a 4x to 24x signal conversion similar to the one lingenfelter makes.
The 4x might work to fire the spark, but I highly doubt it would work for the injectors.
It works just fine. I wired a 411 to a votec 350 tonight to do some testing for a project I'm working on with the 411 pcm. I just configured the pcm for use with the low resolution crank sensor. It's 4x crank and 1x cam.
And here's what the reluctor in the motor looks like.
I forget who makes it but there is a version now in a 24x version now as well for using COP ignition when people are doing swaps and such. In this case I would think that the 4x would be a lot easier to get the timing correct with and what he has already mounted could very well work in the swap.
That sounds pretty cool then. Never thought that was even possible when running efi. I suppose he just has to work out mounting the sensors, upgrading the injectors, wiring in the trans and he should be good to hook. I guess we will all find out when he goes to crank this beast. I applaud the creativity here.
That sounds pretty cool then. Never thought that was even possible when running efi. I suppose he just has to work out mounting the sensors, upgrading the injectors, wiring in the trans and he should be good to hook. I guess we will all find out when he goes to crank this beast. I applaud the creativity here.
I have taken this as far as running a TBI 305 on a 411 pcm with a couple mods. The motor was knocking and about to blow so I did some hacking and was able to get the 411 to start and run the engine. I used the vortec distruibtor, timing cover and reluctor (tack welded to the crank) used a couple of FETS to drive the TBI injectors since I wasn't sure what they would do if wired directly to the pcm. It started and idled after some fiddling with cover alignment of the crank sensor, didn't try much more then that since it had no harmonic balancer on it and the timing cover wasn't sealed just set to line up with the reluctor.....and the man with a jack hammer in the block sounded like he was ready to come out any second.
It was about as hacked up as you could get and looked like a hack project but it was just to see if it would actually work type of thing.
If the 0411 accepted other signals, then anyone could just run a gen IV 58x with no issues. That is not the case though. The signal must be converted to 24x.
Thats actually possible once the rest of the required data has been extracted from a pcm. This was discussed a couple of years back but to my knowledge no one has dug any deeper then this. The context of this was using a 4th gen pcm(58x) with a 3rd gen motor being 24x.
2007 5.3l truck application, In Tuner CATS OBD2 Tuner there are a few settings for ''crank decoder method'' and "camshaft pulse per revolution" Default value is 8 for decoder, and 4 for pulses per rev.
I got the following info from John at TC about the different settings for crank decoder method, as follows.
I have a gen 3 24x/1x block, crank, timing set, and camshaft setup with a drill. I've wired the crank and cam sensors up to an E38 on my bench harness and using Tech 2 to monitor crank rpm and pulse activity. I've tried setting 0,1,2 and so far I am not able to see any crank activity, however, the ECM is reading the 1x cam sensor.
Well I suppose you learn something new everyday. On my setup I just converted everything to 24/1x, as well as updated my pcm to the 411. I had the 98. It was fun trying to tune that thing with a 427 stroker LS3. Every little thing made it run like ***. If the air, spark, or fuel was slightly off, the pcm couldn't update fast enough to catch it. I also had no option to run MAF, because again, pcm was just too slow to calculate it in time to keep the engine running correctly. The more control I gave the pcm, the more it abused it's power and killed my engine. This happened more times than I care to remember. So I just went SD for the longest time, finally upgraded the pcm a few months back. SO much better, and responsive. Might even consider going back to MAF eventually, but I have to do some work on my intake tract to make that happen.
This is all very useful info for anyone considering a swap. Honestly, to me, it's just easier to go with the right crank and cam setup for whichever engine. I ran a 58x signal for years on my 98 pcm in CL with minimal issues. This was of course courtesy of the lingenfelter signal converter. That makes life much easier. Obviously this is not an option for him, since an LS crank will not work.
If I were doing this, I would just put a 24x reluctor behind the balancer with a small spacer and weld it on. Then I would space out the other accessories the same amount, probably about 3/8" considering the thickness of the reluctor. Then use the dist. as the 1x trigger. I would also convert over to coil on plug for the simple reason of spark tuning. To me, it's better than the old vacuum advance or any other system for spark. That's just my .02 though.
you guys are great help. everyone said I would have to run a fast efi box or holley efi box but I figured I could use the gm stuff with the right people.
ok so whats the best way to set this all up? the trans is a 2000 4l80e, 12200411 pcm, I have the short 6.0 42/50lbs injectors, msd crank trigger and a Mallory electric dist. the wiring was cut on the firebird after the pcm going to motor so I have some of that and I got all the pigtails from the 4l80e when I got the trans and I have a s10 engine wiring harness that has the red and blue plugs for the 0411. so I can make the wiring work. I am not going to run turbo this year I just want to get it running na and get the tune right and enjoy this year.
ok so whats the best way to set this all up? the trans is a 2000 4l80e, 12200411 pcm, I have the short 6.0 42/50lbs injectors, msd crank trigger and a Mallory electric dist. the wiring was cut on the firebird after the pcm going to motor so I have some of that and I got all the pigtails from the 4l80e when I got the trans and I have a s10 engine wiring harness that has the red and blue plugs for the 0411. so I can make the wiring work. I am not going to run turbo this year I just want to get it running na and get the tune right and enjoy this year.
That depends on how much time and money your ready to throw at this. Once the engine is in the car it's going to be a lot harder to work on but your going to feel like your a lot closer and may be more inclined to sacrifice money for time.
The 1st thing is figuring out if the distributor will be easily removable with the engine in the car. Until you spin the distributor hooked up to a pcm there is no grantee the signal is compatible with the pcm. In it's stock(Mallory ) form I would seriously doubt it is. I've got a pretty good idea your going to end up needing a stock hei housing and shaft with a modified (stock vortec)pickup coil. But until you scope the pattern or wire it up to a pcm it's just a best guess.
Next your crank trigger looks go be pretty wide open but that's hard to say until it's in the car if it'll still be easy to access. You need to figure out(fairly early) if you want to run coil on plug or use the distributor to fire the spark plugs. That will determin if you need the 4x or 24x signal. From the crank. IMO the 4x makes the crank sensor easier to setup and harder to setup the pickup in the distributor. On the flip side the 24x crank sensor makes distributor modification easier since it no longer has spark in it and opens up more ways to mod it if needed.
Building the harness will be the simple part of the project. Your going to be better of building a harness then trying to splice connectors together and repair the one you have. The last thing you want is to chase a wiring issue on a project like this. With that said the connector bodies them selves are valuable and can be reused with new terminals. There are multiple sources for the wire so don't sweat that.
So......i see two options. Do all the work with the engine on a stand so it runs and you know every thing works. For that it'd require pretty minimal wiring to verify the ignition works. Your other option is do every thing in the car. In the car you'll likely have more motivation to work through the problems since you'll see it getting close to being done. If you do the work on a stand it's a lot easier to push it off into a corner and forget about it.
Once you have all that figured out we can help you move fowatd.
I think you need to start with the signal for the PCM. I believe what you have can work with it, but consider what a few of us have said about the vortec or 24x reluctor wheels from the LS1's. This might be less of a headache in the long run. Like I said in my last post, you could always mount the reluctor behind the balancer and tac it on there. Then you would just need to build a bracket and mount the pickup appropriately. On an LS1 crank or any other for that matter, there is very little room between the reluctor and the rear of the crank. It's a tight fit, so I don't see why it couldn't be modified and mounted on the back of the balancer.
That engine bay just looks like a lot of wiring fun. Get some pinouts for the PCM and trans. MRK motorsports has a few on their site that are of use. As you say you have a harness from an S10, I would identify the sensors you are going to need and start there with that. At a minimum you would need ECT, RPM, MAP, trans plug, injector harness, TPS, IAC, PCM grounds (3ea) and VSS. I am probably forgetting a few, but that's a start.
As far as your injectors go, with this many cubes I would highly encourage you stepping up to at least 65 pounders, if not bigger, especially if you plan on running boost. In that case I'd go for 80-100 or something in that range. This thing is MASSIVELY bigger than the 6.0L. I'm sure there are some calculators out there that could help in choosing the right ones.
You will still need to swap the wires in your trans plug or at the PCM and install the front ISS sensor to run the 80 without using a relay. As far as I am aware, S10's didn't have 4L80's either. You will also need a tunnel mount torque arm. Among other things, the 80 also will not "fit" in an f-body. You have to massage it in there with a nice 10 pound sledge or the like (body of car in tunnel does not allow for plug to fit). There are also a few places on the bell housing that have to be trimmed off, or get the hammer out and massage those spots too. Your call on that. You will also need some low profile AN adapters for the oil lines, unless you want to get in another workout with the hammer. I just went with the low pro adapters, -6 AN 90*. Make sure the back one has a long tube on it, otherwise the back case will not get properly lubed. These are available from a lot of places for around 50 bucks iirc. And lastly, you can either modify your trans crossmember, or buy one for the 80. BMR make a decent one. Don't forget you will also have to modify your D/S for a 1350 series yoke. If you are changing the rear housing, then go 1350 on that too and just get a new driveshaft.
I'm not the one to talk to about all the other crazy signal conversion stuff from earlier in the thread. I'm sure those guys can get you going on that though if you choose not to go for the 24x wheel.
01-24-2018, 11:53 PM
