I did a good bit of searching on here and on Google, but I cant find info on "when someone would/should use a wide-band system". I mean, I know WHEN it is used, and why it's used, but I can't find what dictates when it should be used in certain situations, but all the threads I found are about people that are going to use one, or are deciding which one to use, etc...
What I mean is, would it benefit someone who is 95% stock to use one? Or is it mostly beneficial for forced induction, NO2, or highly modified N/A engines? I have an SLP lid, 1 3/4" TSP LT headers, will be catted with hi-flow magnaflows in a TSP y-pipe and 3" single pipe to the back. I haven't the cats put into the y-pipe yet, or the rest of the 3" exhaust. Nor am I tuned yet for emissions. I wouldn't consider spark plugs or larger dia. wires to be significant enough of a mod to take into account when talking about mods. But if it matters, I got duped into iridium NGKs and larger MSD wires, like 8.8" or something.
When I go get tuned after all my parts are finally on, I don't know how the tuner will do it, and the website doesn't specify the exact tuning method. Unless someone disagrees with me, I'll be going with American Intense Racing in Arvada, CO. ai-racing.com
There is a regular tune, then what I believe to be a dyno tune.
So after I get tuned, would it be beneficial for me to use a wideband, or just let the guy tune my car and then stick with regular O2 sensors since I'm not highly modified........?????? Personally I feel like keeping it simple is all I need, but wanna make sure I'm not missing something.
Secondary question, would a tuner use a wideband to tune, then take it off and just go back to regular O2 sensors?
Its not going to be my DD, but to and from work a little bit on the nice days, and the occasional cruise on the weekends through the mountains curvaceous roads.

I hope I wasn't too "all over the place" with this and it makes sense.

Thanks

 

Great set of questions. Following.

 

A wideband MUST be used during WOT tuning or when tuning OPEN LOOP (which the PCMs will go into open loop under WOT conditions). I personally recommend ALL modified vehicles, no matter the level of modifications, had a wideband setup PERMANENTLY installed on their vehicle. Why spend THOUSANDS of dollars on your mods and not spend <$200 bucks for a meter that could save your engine if someones goes awry? Heck, install a DUAL wideband setup, if you can afford it.

 

Sounds good. I'll definitely consider getting one.
So it sounds to me like my tuner WILL use one while tuning. Then will put my regular O2s in and send me on my way...???

 

I use a tailpipe mounted wideband when I tune a car that doesnt have one permantly mounted. I dont know ANYONE that removes a primary O2 while tuning.

 

The difference between a narrow band O2 and a wideband O2 are very different. On a stock ecm, the narrow band O2 will toggle between lean and rich to target the set afr. A aftermarket wideband just reads afr or lambda actually. It may display either, but it's reading lambda.
When you go wot, the narrow bands become useless. They can not read what your afr is, so it could be lean enough to damage your engine, and you will never know.
I consistently tune with a wide band. I turn all fueling correction off. This will vary by tuner. As long as the end result ends up with you having a ve that is less than 5% off, it's fine. That is where fueling correction comes back into play. If I have my fuel correction turned off, my wide band afr changes very little. Once I turn it back on, you can literally see the narrow band O2's swing lean and rich ( and I don't mean a lot, just more than with it off). I hope this helps some.

 

I understand a narrowband is more like a switch. It sees rich, stoich, or lean, but little or no variation between them.
Is that a fair evaluation?

 

wideband makes dialing in a VE table really easy when you can plug in the input and run a correction table in hpt/efilive.

Once the VE is right, its no longer needed, so yes - a tuner could use his wideband, and remove it. Thats how we built my VE table - just removed a factory O2 and plugged a wideband in that hole until we got the VE right, then put the NB back in to make fueling adjustments as needed.

 

It's switching like that because its closed loop and working with the ECU and the fuel trims that are going + and - in an attempt to endlessly get it to stoich.

 

My opinion also, modified vehicle needs a permanent wideband. Lets you know if your afr is in check and if anything is wrong. Example. I had a buddy at work put my fuel pump in for me because I was too busy to do it and he was bored. Little did we know, he nicked the oring causing a internal fuel leak. I could see the lean afr on my wideband and i opened up my laptop to see my trims were getting higher as I lost pressure. glad I didnt get on it and if I didnt have a wideband, I might have. I wouldnt have been alerted to the issue. The car ended up dying and a cut oring is what I found. Food for thought. Possibly saved my engine that day.

 

Oh ok so a wide band is on top of the narrow band regular ones. I see.

 

Even after you're done tuning, widebands are pretty helpful for troubleshooting. If the engine starts acting weird, just knowing whether you're rich or lean or still on target (and a little vs. a lot, and under which conditions) can help you narrow down the source of the problem.

 

For those that are curious...

O2 sensors of all kinds actually operate by producing voltage. Narrow bands can produce roughly 1.2 volts, or about 1200 millivolts as we read them in the scanner. This gives them a range of a few points +/- of stoich. If they are out of the detection range, as in WAY off, then they just keep telling the PCM to dump or remove fuel (in closed loop) until they hit the switch point. Then they will do the opposite, and so forth. If LTFT's are on, they will remember how much was needed to make the correction, hence it will "learn"... This is baring anything is wrong with the stock O2's. Which can easily go bad, especially the heated types.

A wide-band on the other hand, can detect ranges typically from about 7 to 30 depending on the model, which is a massive range. This is because they can produce up to 5v from the materials its made out of. These materials react with oxygen and the burned gasses in the pipe. The greater the difference between the inside oxygen level and that of the outside world, the greater the voltage produced. So if there was zero oxygen inside the pipe, then it would produce the max voltage and show the richest setting possible. This is also how the stock ones work too. How they actually measure the "difference" is the space around the wires on the back are not air tight. This allows oxygen in, and hence creates this little reaction as the difference occurs.

I digress.

If you are going to install a WB, which I too highly recommend, put it near as you can to the stock O2, but not right next to it. It has to be after the collector, but as close to the engine as possible. Also angle it down approx 15 degrees. Just weld in another bung for it. It's super easy.

 

I really really really really really really really really really really really really need to practice my welding more. My problem is I don't have 220V in the garage. I installed 220V in the subpanel of my really big shed at my old house and put the plug right by the door so I could weld outside, but the house we live in now (and probably for the next 18-22 years until kids are gone and out of college) I don't have it, yet. Sucks because my breaker panel is nearly 100 feet from where I would put the 220V plug in my garage. 100 feet of 10 Gauge wire for 220v and 20 amps isnt horribly expensive, but I just have to get some and run it. Gonna use the metal clad stuff so I can run it outside the house and not worry about running through crawl spaces and in between walls or floors.

 

I just wanted to say, having a wideband saved my engine yesterday. It kept leaning out from a 2nd gear roll and I see it flash 12.xx-13.xx (boosted, not good!) and I’d let off. Still haven’t figured out the issue but at least I know I have a problem that needs to be fixed. So that’s reason enough for me. Saving $150 ain’t worth throwing $2000 on a motor in the trash. FWIW.

 

Been a while since I used it, but my EFILIVE is set up so I can remove 1 NB sensor, and screw the WB in it's place. It reports the NB input to the ecm, as if the sensor was still in the pipe.
My EE set it up for me.