Let's see your VE graph after tuning..
02-20-2005, 08:36 PM
#61
Originally Posted by Magnus
Also, its easy to tune the low rpm low kpa cells of the table as you are in them quite often, however high load low rpm you may barely hit.. so you will not get a lot of data in that range.. When you do hit those cells, adjust the surrounding cells as well (by a lesser margin) to keep things inline.
02-20-2005, 08:39 PM
#63
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Please dont take our queston asking as arguing we are just trying to get to the bottom of this. I blew many hours smoothing the ve table because i would log make changes smooth and then they would be off from the goal i was trying to reach. After logging and LEAVING the table as is there was less deviation between actual and commanded
02-20-2005, 08:45 PM
#65
Originally Posted by Magnus
No worries..
I believe you guys.. I'd like to see your data so I can understand WHY your mountain range is workin for ya.
I believe you guys.. I'd like to see your data so I can understand WHY your mountain range is workin for ya.
02-20-2005, 08:55 PM
#67
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I never saw the smoothing button 
Magnus, how exactly does it setup the polynomial?
Does it fit the curve across all the points at a specific RPM point across a MAP range?
Or does it fit across the points that have been changed and adjust the points that have not been changed and fit to the curve?
I am assuming that it works on one line at a time, or does it take all points into account i.e. a 3-D curve fit?
Edit:
And I had another question for you, what kind of gains did you see at the track with the MAFless tune? Any before and after numbers? Nobody was able to answer this question in another thread and a busted tranny is preventing me from finding out myself
Magnus, how exactly does it setup the polynomial?
Does it fit the curve across all the points at a specific RPM point across a MAP range?
Or does it fit across the points that have been changed and adjust the points that have not been changed and fit to the curve?
I am assuming that it works on one line at a time, or does it take all points into account i.e. a 3-D curve fit?
Edit:
And I had another question for you, what kind of gains did you see at the track with the MAFless tune? Any before and after numbers? Nobody was able to answer this question in another thread and a busted tranny is preventing me from finding out myself
02-20-2005, 09:05 PM
#68
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Each point is calculating using the surrounding cells. It does not curve the entire graph as that lead to less than desireable results. It uses all points, changed and unchanged in calculation.
Its also a multi-pass function.
No before/after #'s.. I went mafless because I threw on a 90mm TB.. kinda pointless to run a 90mm TB with a tiny MAF as a restriction.
Its also a multi-pass function.
No before/after #'s.. I went mafless because I threw on a 90mm TB.. kinda pointless to run a 90mm TB with a tiny MAF as a restriction.
02-20-2005, 09:07 PM
#69
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Chad, your table is semi-smooth for the areas that you have a lot of data for.. but areas that are hard to reach you start creating ski ranges...
In those ranges if you change one, change the surrounding by a lesser margin.
Also, remember.. interpolation.. Remove your spikes by absorbing them into the surrounding cells...
In those ranges if you change one, change the surrounding by a lesser margin.
Also, remember.. interpolation..
Remove your spikes by absorbing them into the surrounding cells...
02-20-2005, 09:13 PM
#70
Originally Posted by Magnus
Chad, your table is semi-smooth for the areas that you have a lot of data for.. but areas that are hard to reach you start creating ski ranges...
In those ranges if you change one, change the surrounding by a lesser margin.
Also, remember.. interpolation.. Remove your spikes by absorbing them into the surrounding cells...
In those ranges if you change one, change the surrounding by a lesser margin.
Also, remember.. interpolation..
Remove your spikes by absorbing them into the surrounding cells...an example. map 50 rpm 800. If I smooth the VE table, then it alters
this cell and in turn throws off my ACTUAL afr for idle.
Example: Before smoothing for Map 50/RPM 800 = 39.0 (my car never goes out of this cell at idle)
After smoothing for Map 50/RPM 800 = 42.2 This is going to put my ACTUAL AFR richer then I want it to be because the other cells don't have any effect on it.
02-20-2005, 09:19 PM
#71
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At low load points in the table changing the VE can drasticaly change your AFR..
Your idle are seems ok.. the areas I am most concerned about are the abnormally large spikes that do not match their surrounding and the flat WOT ridge. Also there is a really huge spike about 2K rpm's and low kPa.
Your idle are seems ok.. the areas I am most concerned about are the abnormally large spikes that do not match their surrounding and the flat WOT ridge. Also there is a really huge spike about 2K rpm's and low kPa.
02-20-2005, 09:20 PM
#72
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Originally Posted by Magnus
Each point is calculating using the surrounding cells. It does not curve the entire graph as that lead to less than desireable results. It uses all points, changed and unchanged in calculation.
Its also a multi-pass function.
No before/after #'s.. I went mafless because I threw on a 90mm TB.. kinda pointless to run a 90mm TB with a tiny MAF as a restriction.
Its also a multi-pass function.
No before/after #'s.. I went mafless because I threw on a 90mm TB.. kinda pointless to run a 90mm TB with a tiny MAF as a restriction.
Reason I asked is because I did something similar but in a different application, finite element analysis.
I was going to try and apply the same techniques to smoothing the table out but didn't see the smoothing buttion
02-20-2005, 09:24 PM
#73
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a VE snow hill.
I may start off using the smoothing button once.. but will manually smooth out the rest of the table.. I am very picky about my VE (not that it matters I just like to play)..
Just don't abuse the smoothing button or you'll change cells that shouldn't be changed or end up creating a nice plane. You can also highlight the area you want to smooth, then hit the smoothing button to avoid smoothing outside cells.
I may start off using the smoothing button once.. but will manually smooth out the rest of the table.. I am very picky about my VE (not that it matters I just like to play)..
Just don't abuse the smoothing button or you'll change cells that shouldn't be changed or end up creating a nice plane. You can also highlight the area you want to smooth, then hit the smoothing button to avoid smoothing outside cells.
02-20-2005, 09:26 PM
#74
Originally Posted by Magnus
At low load points in the table changing the VE can drasticaly change your AFR..
Your idle are seems ok.. the areas I am most concerned about are the abnormally large spikes that do not match their surrounding and the flat WOT ridge. Also there is a really huge spike about 2K rpm's and low kPa.
Your idle are seems ok.. the areas I am most concerned about are the abnormally large spikes that do not match their surrounding and the flat WOT ridge. Also there is a really huge spike about 2K rpm's and low kPa.
02-20-2005, 09:28 PM
#75
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Yeah very informative. My smoothing skills by hand isnt that pimp and maybe that is because i am looking at this as a cell by cell thing instead of looking at the bigger picture
02-20-2005, 09:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Magnus
a VE snow hill.
I may start off using the smoothing button once.. but will manually smooth out the rest of the table.. I am very picky about my VE (not that it matters I just like to play)..
Just don't abuse the smoothing button or you'll change cells that shouldn't be changed or end up creating a nice plane. You can also highlight the area you want to smooth, then hit the smoothing button to avoid smoothing outside cells.
I may start off using the smoothing button once.. but will manually smooth out the rest of the table.. I am very picky about my VE (not that it matters I just like to play)..
Just don't abuse the smoothing button or you'll change cells that shouldn't be changed or end up creating a nice plane. You can also highlight the area you want to smooth, then hit the smoothing button to avoid smoothing outside cells.
02-20-2005, 09:36 PM
#78
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Ya, timing affects fueling..
Smooth the table by using the 3D graph.. just click your point and drag it to where you want it to be. Its hard to smooth a table that is very spikey though by hand, you may not hit the cells you want.
The reason I got so involved in this thread is because I too am addicted to VE tuning.
- Keith, HP Tuners
Smooth the table by using the 3D graph.. just click your point and drag it to where you want it to be. Its hard to smooth a table that is very spikey though by hand, you may not hit the cells you want.
The reason I got so involved in this thread is because I too am addicted to VE tuning.
- Keith, HP Tuners
02-20-2005, 09:37 PM
#79
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So all it boils down to is, your algorithm take samples of the cells and their surroundings and smooths based on how much it had to take from one to add to the other....
02-20-2005, 09:41 PM
#80
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Sort of..
I don't make changes 100%.. I usually make changes in the 50% range and then scan again to see how much more I have to go. A 100% change may put me on the other side of the line.. hence, multiply by half %
I don't make changes 100%.. I usually make changes in the 50% range and then scan again to see how much more I have to go. A 100% change may put me on the other side of the line.. hence, multiply by half %