125% duty cycle on injectors
06-27-2005, 04:59 AM
#21
dude i said absolutely nothing about the suv ones, granted i assumed that he was running fbody style injectors but he wasnt so my bad there. i however know more than you do about your fbody CAR injectors now after all the research that i had to do to figure out how to get thse to work right. for your information one of the vendors i talked to was geoff at thunder and he was stumped at what i was saying as well and said they only modifications made were to the IFR table. quit saying they sell and tune on a regular basis, all is done is the ifr is tweaked to MAKE them work, the ifr needs to have the right flow numbers in there or else your tricking your car to make them run right, i will fix my post to say the delphi/lucas injectors but i still stand by what i say about them 110%. i have no experience with those so i will say nothing about them.
however you still provide no information about the cutoff rate or any technical information about the function of the injectors, just the design. i know how an injector works and so does everyone else im sure. if you are going to take the time to say people dont know what they are saying then you need to back it up, if you cant back it up then dont say it. i have threads and logs and tests of my own to prove what i have said. i actually talked with horist a while back about getting this to work out. the ford injectors can run down to 0.9 ms, which makes them function a lot better when running at stock cam MAP.
still waiting for some usefil information from you...in other threads you said you would get some but you never did, i wonder why?
however you still provide no information about the cutoff rate or any technical information about the function of the injectors, just the design. i know how an injector works and so does everyone else im sure. if you are going to take the time to say people dont know what they are saying then you need to back it up, if you cant back it up then dont say it. i have threads and logs and tests of my own to prove what i have said. i actually talked with horist a while back about getting this to work out. the ford injectors can run down to 0.9 ms, which makes them function a lot better when running at stock cam MAP.
still waiting for some usefil information from you...in other threads you said you would get some but you never did, i wonder why?
06-27-2005, 08:42 AM
#22
i also dont want this to seem like i am putting down your product, i think its great but for a modified internal car.
in the other thread about the pump you say i had problems and i did, i spent 3 months researching and testing different things to do what i could do, i dont know everything there is to know and im sure noone knows everything there is to know about these injectors. i collected as much information as i could and printed it all out so i could anaylize all the data. i called numerous tuners with the same response, i tried to call geoff at thunder even though in his emails he said the ifr was just changed but i could not get in touch with him, and he didnt seem to think adjusting the proportional fuel was necessary but when i contacted ken at hp tuners about this he said it was necessary to do so. i gave him my logs to check out and he told me they are running at a low pulsewidth causing a "misfire" and poor idle
now with that said, my car runs great right now with these injectors, i dont want to get the wrong point across.
i adjusted the min pulse width to reach 2.0 on stock internals and it ran fine, but there was too much fuel for what i had at the time. let me explain this one more time because im not going to have the finger pointed at me and be critisized for my hard work and 3 months or research before i started to say all this, hell if you want i can dig the old email out that i got no technical information, stuff injector based that i feel you all should have data on.
put the 38# injector in the car, before i was getting about 5-6 oscillations of the o2s per screen shot. after this i was getting about 1-2 oscillations. this made the o2s so lazy that it would overshoot every bad. it would pull too much fuel and then not enough back and forth. so to combat this i adjusted the proportional idle fueling which tells the motor the fuel charge needed for proper o2 oscillation. after doing this i was able to get 2-3 oscillations per shot, you need less charge with larger injectors because the shot they give is larger so the computer needs to know this, something that the tuners at shops told me they didnt do. although my idle was better it was still oscillating about 150-200 rpm difference. i raised the idle to see if the car would maybe pull less vacuum making the injectors have to stay on longer. this whole time i was slowly increasing the pulse width to get better and better numbers. i didnt directly have the pulse width go higher just made the right corrections for the injectors. for the hell of it i dropped the injector flows numbers in the computer to the 3 bar number instead of the 4 bar that should have been put in there to test what i was saying. once i did this the car ran great and oscillation was normal. the only problem now was that at idle the car was running at times -20 on the fuel trims, way too rich. so i adjusted the VE to pull more fuel and what happened? the idle was messed up again and the pulse width dropped to the limit where i was having trouble. right now i can run the car with the cam to 0 on the fuel trims no problem. i couldnt get the car any more than -12 when i was messing with the injectors and that was with 100 rpm variance in idle. there was also someone in the fueling section that was flow testing for misfire and tested some of the delphi/lucas injectors and at the high end of 1.XX ms pulse width they showed to misfire. the ford injectors are good to under 1.0 ms with no issues, thats why they run so good in small cammed cars.
with all that being said i feel like i have done my research. i have talked to some of the best damn tuners on this site about this stuff and put each little bit of information together from them all. so i think i have the right and the knowledge to talk about this stuff.
all it takes is to prove me wrong, so do it. i have no problem with taking back all i have said IF i did something wrong but to the best of my knowledge, hp tuners, shop tuners, i have done everything possible with the tune to get them to work. but like i said, if you can come here with information about these injectors that show the cutout limit and show other means of tuning than the IFR table like the vendors you sent me to, then do it. i will delete everythign i have said like this with no problem, people arent perfect. you could come on here and say how i dont know my stuff, but if you do that then you need to come back with something and say waht i did wrong. just because people have issues with the product isnt saying its bad, you are taking the easy way out saying that its the tuners fault for not knowing anything. many threads you have been asked to present information and since the last post asking that you havent showed back up. redhardsupra and i were asking you in another therad and you said you woudl get some and never did. thats all we want. but then you **** us off when you cant even supply us with the information. ken at hp tuners said this information should be supplied with the injectors. if not you are tuning blindly and have to try different things to find the right thing to work. there are many people frustrated with the remarks from racetronix about not knowing what we are doing. there are lot nicer ways to go about this. most companies have tech support that is helpful for making their product work, but racetronix doesnt seem to cover that too well with the injectors.
my break is over, but im not through. i have had enough of your remarks on here and other threads.
in the other thread about the pump you say i had problems and i did, i spent 3 months researching and testing different things to do what i could do, i dont know everything there is to know and im sure noone knows everything there is to know about these injectors. i collected as much information as i could and printed it all out so i could anaylize all the data. i called numerous tuners with the same response, i tried to call geoff at thunder even though in his emails he said the ifr was just changed but i could not get in touch with him, and he didnt seem to think adjusting the proportional fuel was necessary but when i contacted ken at hp tuners about this he said it was necessary to do so. i gave him my logs to check out and he told me they are running at a low pulsewidth causing a "misfire" and poor idle
now with that said, my car runs great right now with these injectors, i dont want to get the wrong point across.
i adjusted the min pulse width to reach 2.0 on stock internals and it ran fine, but there was too much fuel for what i had at the time. let me explain this one more time because im not going to have the finger pointed at me and be critisized for my hard work and 3 months or research before i started to say all this, hell if you want i can dig the old email out that i got no technical information, stuff injector based that i feel you all should have data on.
put the 38# injector in the car, before i was getting about 5-6 oscillations of the o2s per screen shot. after this i was getting about 1-2 oscillations. this made the o2s so lazy that it would overshoot every bad. it would pull too much fuel and then not enough back and forth. so to combat this i adjusted the proportional idle fueling which tells the motor the fuel charge needed for proper o2 oscillation. after doing this i was able to get 2-3 oscillations per shot, you need less charge with larger injectors because the shot they give is larger so the computer needs to know this, something that the tuners at shops told me they didnt do. although my idle was better it was still oscillating about 150-200 rpm difference. i raised the idle to see if the car would maybe pull less vacuum making the injectors have to stay on longer. this whole time i was slowly increasing the pulse width to get better and better numbers. i didnt directly have the pulse width go higher just made the right corrections for the injectors. for the hell of it i dropped the injector flows numbers in the computer to the 3 bar number instead of the 4 bar that should have been put in there to test what i was saying. once i did this the car ran great and oscillation was normal. the only problem now was that at idle the car was running at times -20 on the fuel trims, way too rich. so i adjusted the VE to pull more fuel and what happened? the idle was messed up again and the pulse width dropped to the limit where i was having trouble. right now i can run the car with the cam to 0 on the fuel trims no problem. i couldnt get the car any more than -12 when i was messing with the injectors and that was with 100 rpm variance in idle. there was also someone in the fueling section that was flow testing for misfire and tested some of the delphi/lucas injectors and at the high end of 1.XX ms pulse width they showed to misfire. the ford injectors are good to under 1.0 ms with no issues, thats why they run so good in small cammed cars.
with all that being said i feel like i have done my research. i have talked to some of the best damn tuners on this site about this stuff and put each little bit of information together from them all. so i think i have the right and the knowledge to talk about this stuff.
all it takes is to prove me wrong, so do it. i have no problem with taking back all i have said IF i did something wrong but to the best of my knowledge, hp tuners, shop tuners, i have done everything possible with the tune to get them to work. but like i said, if you can come here with information about these injectors that show the cutout limit and show other means of tuning than the IFR table like the vendors you sent me to, then do it. i will delete everythign i have said like this with no problem, people arent perfect. you could come on here and say how i dont know my stuff, but if you do that then you need to come back with something and say waht i did wrong. just because people have issues with the product isnt saying its bad, you are taking the easy way out saying that its the tuners fault for not knowing anything. many threads you have been asked to present information and since the last post asking that you havent showed back up. redhardsupra and i were asking you in another therad and you said you woudl get some and never did. thats all we want. but then you **** us off when you cant even supply us with the information. ken at hp tuners said this information should be supplied with the injectors. if not you are tuning blindly and have to try different things to find the right thing to work. there are many people frustrated with the remarks from racetronix about not knowing what we are doing. there are lot nicer ways to go about this. most companies have tech support that is helpful for making their product work, but racetronix doesnt seem to cover that too well with the injectors.
my break is over, but im not through. i have had enough of your remarks on here and other threads.
06-27-2005, 08:53 AM
#23
the most info from racetronix i have got, which with error in injectors the other numbers i have are close, do i dont see why i am being told i am wrong, approx 1.5 could be +/-.2, getting me right in that limit. this is reverse order from email, sorry.
Racetronix: No, with this size of injector and fuel pressure you should have no problem targeting a fairly lean A/F at idle.
Me: i have your pump kit and wiring and im getting about 63 psi at idle at the rail, will higher pressure make this pulse width smaller due to a larger fuel shot? which may be causing me to have to run the car rich to get it to idle ok?? thanks for the response
Racetronix: Disc injector is good for apx. 1.5ms.
Supply voltage and fuel pressure will effect this #.
Me: ok so i have been figuring a lot out with other ways to adjust the idle and see if maybe i had other issues, im still about as close as i can get on that idle.
is there a minimum pulse width that these injectors should be run at? im wondering if im running into some sort of misfire resulting from injector shut off or running too low pulse width.
or maybe the way the computer is set up they cannot run a low enough pulse width, if they react faster they should need to be open less than stock and if the stock setting is too high, they cannot operate below it to allow for an idle that is not rich and is steady.
Racetronix: No, with this size of injector and fuel pressure you should have no problem targeting a fairly lean A/F at idle.
Me: i have your pump kit and wiring and im getting about 63 psi at idle at the rail, will higher pressure make this pulse width smaller due to a larger fuel shot? which may be causing me to have to run the car rich to get it to idle ok?? thanks for the response
Racetronix: Disc injector is good for apx. 1.5ms.
Supply voltage and fuel pressure will effect this #.
Me: ok so i have been figuring a lot out with other ways to adjust the idle and see if maybe i had other issues, im still about as close as i can get on that idle.
is there a minimum pulse width that these injectors should be run at? im wondering if im running into some sort of misfire resulting from injector shut off or running too low pulse width.
or maybe the way the computer is set up they cannot run a low enough pulse width, if they react faster they should need to be open less than stock and if the stock setting is too high, they cannot operate below it to allow for an idle that is not rich and is steady.
06-27-2005, 08:56 AM
#24
this was from geoff, he was helpful and answered my emails. he said he was busy and calling on the phone would be best, but he was just that, busy. i wasnt able to get a hold of him so i was able to call other places up. i dont want it to be made out i didnt try to contact him because i did, but i understand he has a job to do over there and after a few times calling and not being able to talk i asked them to have him return my call when he had time, but he didnt, may not have gotten the message. either way im not angry or anything at him and i thank him for the help he gave, this is what he told me
Geoff:
Can you send me a screen shot of your IFR table. Something is wrong IMHO with the way the data is being entered. Are the number in your new table going from smaller at 100kpa to bigger at 20kpa. If not the table is backwards.
Also have you done anything else while you changed the injectors? Such as a recalibrated MAF or modified the VE tables? If so put everything back to stock (MAF and PCM) and just adjust the IFR table. If the IFR values are correct there is no reason the car won't run just fine.
Please call me on this.
Thanks,
Geoff
the data being entered was done in a spread sheet that is used religiously on here by those tuning injectors. i also checked with my professor and made sure all the equations were right, im an engineering major so im not totally stupid
Geoff:
Can you send me a screen shot of your IFR table. Something is wrong IMHO with the way the data is being entered. Are the number in your new table going from smaller at 100kpa to bigger at 20kpa. If not the table is backwards.
Also have you done anything else while you changed the injectors? Such as a recalibrated MAF or modified the VE tables? If so put everything back to stock (MAF and PCM) and just adjust the IFR table. If the IFR values are correct there is no reason the car won't run just fine.
Please call me on this.
Thanks,
Geoff
the data being entered was done in a spread sheet that is used religiously on here by those tuning injectors. i also checked with my professor and made sure all the equations were right, im an engineering major so im not totally stupid
06-27-2005, 08:58 AM
#25
another one from geoff, like i said he helped a lot and this is what i had done
Mike,
I will assume you have an LS1 vehicle based on the fact that you have multiple numbers in the IFR table. I would guess that somewhere along the way something is out of whack with the IFR numbers you have plugged in.
What kind of vehicle do you have? Is it a car or truck? If it is a car all of the injectors that we sell for the cars achieve their rated flow a 3bar of rail pressure. Your fuel system operates at 4bar of rail pressure. You will need to take the square root of the difference so take 1.154 * 38 = 43.87lbs/hr. This is what the injectors flow with your fuel system.
So take 43.87 * 453.6 = 19903.34 grams/hr
19903.34gms/hr / 3600 = 5.528 grams/second
Take this number and look at the injector flow rate at 100kpa. For a 98 LS1 F-Body the number is 3.62
5.528/3.62=1.52
Put the stock IFR table back in the file and then multiply the entire stock table by this number percentage. So if you have a 98 model car it would be 152%.
This is just an example. If you have a different year car you need to look at the IFR value at 100kpa and adjust your math accordingly.
Mike,
I will assume you have an LS1 vehicle based on the fact that you have multiple numbers in the IFR table. I would guess that somewhere along the way something is out of whack with the IFR numbers you have plugged in.
What kind of vehicle do you have? Is it a car or truck? If it is a car all of the injectors that we sell for the cars achieve their rated flow a 3bar of rail pressure. Your fuel system operates at 4bar of rail pressure. You will need to take the square root of the difference so take 1.154 * 38 = 43.87lbs/hr. This is what the injectors flow with your fuel system.
So take 43.87 * 453.6 = 19903.34 grams/hr
19903.34gms/hr / 3600 = 5.528 grams/second
Take this number and look at the injector flow rate at 100kpa. For a 98 LS1 F-Body the number is 3.62
5.528/3.62=1.52
Put the stock IFR table back in the file and then multiply the entire stock table by this number percentage. So if you have a 98 model car it would be 152%.
This is just an example. If you have a different year car you need to look at the IFR value at 100kpa and adjust your math accordingly.
06-27-2005, 09:01 AM
#26
sorry for posting up but like i said, im sick of hearing things from racetronix. this is one time i asked for help and the "extensive" answer i got. great tech help huh? this was the first day i got the injectors, march 21st, all the other emails were after then, i left some out cuase there were a lot, no real info so i figured a few samples would show it
Me:
after the fuel injectors i bought from you all were installed and i tuned the IFR tables for them in my 2000 LS1, the idle is having troubles. it seems to be once the fuel trims start to switch back and forth and when there is a big change in them the idle stumbles. is this just due to the engine needs to be further tuned for the injectors and the car may need some more miles on it to clear up? i just dont know if that is common when donig injectors, please let me knwo, thanks
Racetronix:
It's all in the tune.
Racetronix
www.racetronix.com
sales@racetronix.com
Me:
after the fuel injectors i bought from you all were installed and i tuned the IFR tables for them in my 2000 LS1, the idle is having troubles. it seems to be once the fuel trims start to switch back and forth and when there is a big change in them the idle stumbles. is this just due to the engine needs to be further tuned for the injectors and the car may need some more miles on it to clear up? i just dont know if that is common when donig injectors, please let me knwo, thanks
Racetronix:
It's all in the tune.
Racetronix
www.racetronix.com
sales@racetronix.com
06-27-2005, 06:58 PM
#29
FormerVendor
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Sorry to hear all your problems with the racetronix injectors. I have a set and mine seem to work fine and idle fine at a commanded AFR of 14.8. I have the high z 32 lbs injectors and have calculated the ifr table that will represent them at 58 psi. I havent had a need to go in and adjust to correct fueling issues....
I am a cam only bolt on car...
I am a cam only bolt on car...
06-27-2005, 07:53 PM
#30
Originally Posted by HumpinSS
Sorry to hear all your problems with the racetronix injectors. I have a set and mine seem to work fine and idle fine at a commanded AFR of 14.8. I have the high z 32 lbs injectors and have calculated the ifr table that will represent them at 58 psi. I havent had a need to go in and adjust to correct fueling issues....
I am a cam only bolt on car...
I am a cam only bolt on car...
06-29-2005, 05:16 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00
I have no problems now, with the cam in there and lesser vacuum the pulse width has increase and I have no issues. This was on a bolt on car, racetronixs told me they werent working because I was not too good at tuning pretty much. Then I am told that my tests are wrong and they don't cut off and many use them fine. I am sure many do use them fine with internal mods. They told me that didn't matter though, said 38# injectors would work on a stock internal engine no problem...get what I was trying to say now?
Now, I know my way around Edit/EFIlive quite well and it took an enormous amount of time and trial and error to get the car to idle and fuel properly. In the end, it's a fine line I had to walk with the values in all three of IFR, VE and Injector Offset tables to get things back in line. It is still a tad rich -5 and -6 at idle. But it just cannot be tuned out because the injectors are on the ragged edge of shutting off completely at those RPM's. Once you're past the 1500 RPM things fall into place properly.
Had I known what was in store for me when I ordered them, I would NOT have purchased the Racetronix. Once they arrived, I almost attempted to get help from Racetronix but happened to read many of WS6FirebirdTA00's posts about his frustration and difficulty getting information from them, so I decided to just go it alone. Off I went into the process with my Edit and EFILive systematically capturing and analyzing change/effect logfiles for each parameter that was changed. A rational thought process, double checking the math and tweaking a little a time, patience and good info from everyone on this board EXCEPT Racetronix, made it possible.
So, it isn't just WS6FirebirdTA00 that has had problems with these pieces. Nor is he crazy.
A monkey with a wrench can get them to run. But making them run properly is a whole different ballgame. Racetronix has a lot to learn from other small shops and even one-man outfits that are sponsors on this board when it comes to customer service. If they don't, it's just a matter of time before their customer base dries up and then they will realize they have handed the market over to other companies...
06-29-2005, 06:06 PM
#33
Thanks for chiming in to back up what I have said. The tables that helped the most, which I dont know if you have access to in Edit, but it was the proportional fueling, if you have access to this let me know and I can try to help you out some more.
06-29-2005, 08:02 PM
#34
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No table called "Proportional Fueling" that I can find in LSEdit v1.3. I guess HP Tuners calls it different. What does it do?
I played around with the "Injector Offset" table in LSEdit v1.3. I understand it controls the amount of time given for the injector to respond to the open/close command. The stock values don't allow sufficient time for the Racetronix injector to actually open/close when it is pulsed. Net result is that the injector is told to open and while it is doing just that, it get the command to close so the injector never actually opens at all. Misfire.
I messed with it and settled on a 113% value across the entire table. However, with more time I may start to "massage" individual areas of the table to see if the LTFT's at idle can be leaned out a bit more without affecting the rest of the load range.
I played around with the "Injector Offset" table in LSEdit v1.3. I understand it controls the amount of time given for the injector to respond to the open/close command. The stock values don't allow sufficient time for the Racetronix injector to actually open/close when it is pulsed. Net result is that the injector is told to open and while it is doing just that, it get the command to close so the injector never actually opens at all. Misfire.
I messed with it and settled on a 113% value across the entire table. However, with more time I may start to "massage" individual areas of the table to see if the LTFT's at idle can be leaned out a bit more without affecting the rest of the load range.
06-29-2005, 08:11 PM
#35
the proportional fueling controls the amount of fuel charge needed to force the oxygen sensors into oscillation per a certain airflow. ive tried the off set but i may look at it closely now that i can actually see better results becuase the car will run pretty good now. idle isnt bad but there is a spot at light throttle where th epulse width hits 2.0-1.9 ms and it doesnt do too well then. maybe i can do this again to fine tune. did you have any special way to go about it? or did you just try different offsets?
06-29-2005, 08:30 PM
#36
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Tried different offsets, 110%, 115% and 113% and EFILived Misfires by Cyl, LTFT's and RPM. At 110% Misfire counts went down but not completely. If I recall correctly, at 115% they zeroed but LTFT's jumped to -20 and -22. Found the sweet spot at 113% with -5 and -6 at idle and -2 and -2 and part throttle from 1500 RPM and up. Had to increase my VE in the 400 - 1200 range a bit too. Added some to the Running Airflow because the VE change made it start hunting a bit for idle.
Like I said, I spent a LOT of time and had to tweak a lot to get it running properly.
Like I said, I spent a LOT of time and had to tweak a lot to get it running properly.
06-29-2005, 09:11 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by WS6FirebirdTA00
yeah i tweaked so much. could never get the o2s to switch but if i ran it rich there was no problem except 10 mpg
Even before this Racetronix adventure, my car makes 11-12mpg cuz of the 4.10's. It shouldn't have changed much because the fueling is now dead-on at part throttle.
I thought I saw you post on SD thread. You running Speed Density?
06-29-2005, 10:29 PM
#39
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I want to hear more about 02 oscillation.
Is there a correct amount of oscillation? How is the amount of oscillation determined? I would think less oscillation would mean you are more toward your fueling being correct.
Is there 02 oscillation with wideband 02's, like narrowbands.
Is there a correct amount of oscillation? How is the amount of oscillation determined? I would think less oscillation would mean you are more toward your fueling being correct.
Is there 02 oscillation with wideband 02's, like narrowbands.
