PCM lockouts
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 384
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From: Murphy, TX
Re: PCM lockouts Hmmm... I think you're seeing a free market economy in action when you see a product like LS1-Edit come along and show promise of displacing the mail-order flavor of pro tuning. They are not entitled to success in their endeavors any more than anybody else.
The question of other tuners is perhaps more difficult. It's a given that tuning for more or less common configurations will ultimately be in the public domain. Tuning for more specialized applications will not if the holders of that information elect not to share it. It's not really any different than say holding a custom ported head or custom ground cam and choosing to allow it be copied or not. The "information" is not and cannot be protected, but misuse/theft is subject to applicable laws.
I guess I'm not sure what your point is. The pro tuners who are engaging in this practice are clearly in the wrong here after having enjoyed a near monopoly for some time. Call me harsh, but I have little sympathy for their situation. A better mouse trap has come along. At the end of the day, folks selling tuning will survive if there is a market for it and won't if there's not. If they have some special insight that the rest of us lack, we will not do well with an editor and there will still be a market. Otherwise, their market will be reduced to those unwilling or unable to invest the effort in doing their own tuning. As convenience oriented and technically illiterate a society as we become, I have no doubt that (at least some of) the mail-order shops will survive.
[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: ToplessTexan ]</p>
The question of other tuners is perhaps more difficult. It's a given that tuning for more or less common configurations will ultimately be in the public domain. Tuning for more specialized applications will not if the holders of that information elect not to share it. It's not really any different than say holding a custom ported head or custom ground cam and choosing to allow it be copied or not. The "information" is not and cannot be protected, but misuse/theft is subject to applicable laws.
I guess I'm not sure what your point is. The pro tuners who are engaging in this practice are clearly in the wrong here after having enjoyed a near monopoly for some time. Call me harsh, but I have little sympathy for their situation. A better mouse trap has come along. At the end of the day, folks selling tuning will survive if there is a market for it and won't if there's not. If they have some special insight that the rest of us lack, we will not do well with an editor and there will still be a market. Otherwise, their market will be reduced to those unwilling or unable to invest the effort in doing their own tuning. As convenience oriented and technically illiterate a society as we become, I have no doubt that (at least some of) the mail-order shops will survive.
[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: ToplessTexan ]</p>
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,048
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: PCM lockouts Your solution is basically to sell the performance enthusiast a programmed computer to swap out. Now not only does one buy a program, they buy the computer, too.
Any other suggestions from anyone?
Any other suggestions from anyone?
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,048
Likes: 12
From: Raleigh, NC
Re: PCM lockouts I'm asking you abuot a Business Plan, here, ya'll.
If you were a person, a company trying to make a living and was going to try addressing the LS1 Programming market... how would you approach this?
How would you invest your time, your personnel, your money and protect that investment so you could stay in business and not give 4-day notices to employees with a family to feed because your hard work was being distributed to the world for free, or worse yet, as someone elses work, over the internet? <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0">
If you were a person, a company trying to make a living and was going to try addressing the LS1 Programming market... how would you approach this?
How would you invest your time, your personnel, your money and protect that investment so you could stay in business and not give 4-day notices to employees with a family to feed because your hard work was being distributed to the world for free, or worse yet, as someone elses work, over the internet? <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0">
TECH Addict
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,207
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From: College Station, Tx
Re: PCM lockouts If a tuner locks a person's PCM without making them aware of the action and the consequences then I agree - that is unacceptable. If the tuner does not want to "unlock" it then I think a full refund and flash back to stock is the best alternative for said tuners, but it is their business, etc. - not mine.
On the other hand I see nothing inherently wrong with the practice itself. If the individuals purchasing the tuning have no problem with the "lock" policy then I say there is no issue. If they do have an issue then don't buy the tune. The free market will sort out which way "works" and which doesn't.
Chris
On the other hand I see nothing inherently wrong with the practice itself. If the individuals purchasing the tuning have no problem with the "lock" policy then I say there is no issue. If they do have an issue then don't buy the tune. The free market will sort out which way "works" and which doesn't.
Chris
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,048
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: PCM lockouts [quote]Originally posted by LS1dude:
<strong>... must want to start making my car payments as well.....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ha ha ha! <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
DEFINITELY, the customer must be made aware they do this.
Acutally, I don't like the lock-out, either.
I'm just asking (addressing the next two posts), are we saying those guys' days are essentially over? Someone else (I think KenK) said this was a "geek-only" tool and would not put htem out of business.
It's too easy to use, to me, for it not to have an impact... as long as you have someone else's example tables to go by.
And HERE is the key:
It took looking at someone elses edits for me to understand in a quicker and fuller way, what I should be doing to make it even better. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
<strong>... must want to start making my car payments as well.....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ha ha ha! <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">
DEFINITELY, the customer must be made aware they do this.
Acutally, I don't like the lock-out, either.
I'm just asking (addressing the next two posts), are we saying those guys' days are essentially over? Someone else (I think KenK) said this was a "geek-only" tool and would not put htem out of business.
It's too easy to use, to me, for it not to have an impact... as long as you have someone else's example tables to go by.
And HERE is the key:
It took looking at someone elses edits for me to understand in a quicker and fuller way, what I should be doing to make it even better. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">
TECH Resident
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 828
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From: dallas,tx.
Re: PCM lockouts a few years ago carburators had these little caps on the air/fuel ratio adjusting screws, and in some cases caps that totally would prevent an individual from making any adjustments at all. only the adventuresome mechanics were able to make any 'mods' to these carbs that were 'locked up' by some godly force from beyond, by way of a hammer and chisel, or something to pry with.
seems to me we have a similar situation here, just a different set of circumstances.
just my two cents <img src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" border="0" alt="[judgement]" />
seems to me we have a similar situation here, just a different set of circumstances.
just my two cents <img src="graemlins/gr_judge.gif" border="0" alt="[judgement]" />
Re: PCM lockouts I think you guys are getting worked up over nothing, IMHO.
The tuner is protecting their DATA. So what if they 'don't change the code'. They spent their time (and $$) generating that data, if they feel they need to protect that data, good for them. ChrisB is correct in that someone was selling an Ed Wright program as 'their own custom tune' not too long after LT1_Edit came out. Ed wants to protect his livelihood, and I can't blame him. It's just not right that someone else is making money off of Ed's data.
Don't like it? It's your choice. Nothing is stopping you from going to the dealer and getting your PCM reflashed and starting over. Sure, it costs money, but so does, say, changing stall converters. And I don't see people wanting to hang Yank out to dry when they upgrade from a ST3500 to a YTP4400.
Just my perspective. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> I think a lot of the above ranting is just plain silly.
-Andrew
The tuner is protecting their DATA. So what if they 'don't change the code'. They spent their time (and $$) generating that data, if they feel they need to protect that data, good for them. ChrisB is correct in that someone was selling an Ed Wright program as 'their own custom tune' not too long after LT1_Edit came out. Ed wants to protect his livelihood, and I can't blame him. It's just not right that someone else is making money off of Ed's data.
Don't like it? It's your choice. Nothing is stopping you from going to the dealer and getting your PCM reflashed and starting over. Sure, it costs money, but so does, say, changing stall converters. And I don't see people wanting to hang Yank out to dry when they upgrade from a ST3500 to a YTP4400.
Just my perspective. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> I think a lot of the above ranting is just plain silly.
-Andrew
TECH Regular
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 414
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From: Orlando, FL
Re: PCM lockouts You people wanting a lawsuit are F'd in the head. A lawsuit against one of the VERY few tuners capable of working with LS1 PCMs would only be hurting us in the long run. If you can afford a lawyer you can certainly go to the dealership and have it reflashed or pay Ed to put you totally back to stock then go buy LS1 Edit or use another tuner.
Tim
Tim
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Thread Starter
Launching!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 253
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From: Tampa, FL
Re: PCM lockouts I think a lot of people here are missing the big picture... I don't knock Ed or anyone else from locking out their programmed PCM's to protect their business. What I have a problem with is not being told about it up front. When ordering a PCM from Ed, you don't sign anything stating that it will be locked out from future PCM adjustments. THAT, is what the problem is. I agree the only solution to it is to give us our money back with a stock PCM... How many will go that route, I don't know.
TECH Addict
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,207
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From: College Station, Tx
Re: PCM lockouts [quote]Is copying in fact unauthorized? Has anyone purchasing pro tuning signed an EULA prohibiting redistribution and/or further modification? <hr></blockquote>
I doubt anyone has signed anything like that, and it would be probably quite difficult to enforce in a court of law anyway (because of the GM ownership of the code, etc.)
So the tuners make it difficult/impossible to copy the tune as part of their program to skirt this issue. Which they have every right to do.
If you don't like this, it's simple - don't buy from them. If this truly bothers enough people the problem will be solved through market forces.
A class action is a dumb idea. What are the sums being discussed here? 200 for new flashing? 400 for a new pcm, etc? With a class action you would be lucky to get 10% of that - and that would only be *if* you won, and years down the road.
If you really feel like taking it to court file in small claims court.
The only people I see with a legitimate gripe in this instance are the ones who had their tuning locked without their knowledge. I would suggest the first thing you do is write a registered/certified letter to the tuner explaining very simply (and without accusations, threats, etc.) the situation, and requesting a full/partial refund of your tuning money, and your pcm returned to stock configuration.
Chris
I doubt anyone has signed anything like that, and it would be probably quite difficult to enforce in a court of law anyway (because of the GM ownership of the code, etc.)
So the tuners make it difficult/impossible to copy the tune as part of their program to skirt this issue. Which they have every right to do.
If you don't like this, it's simple - don't buy from them. If this truly bothers enough people the problem will be solved through market forces.
A class action is a dumb idea. What are the sums being discussed here? 200 for new flashing? 400 for a new pcm, etc? With a class action you would be lucky to get 10% of that - and that would only be *if* you won, and years down the road.
If you really feel like taking it to court file in small claims court.
The only people I see with a legitimate gripe in this instance are the ones who had their tuning locked without their knowledge. I would suggest the first thing you do is write a registered/certified letter to the tuner explaining very simply (and without accusations, threats, etc.) the situation, and requesting a full/partial refund of your tuning money, and your pcm returned to stock configuration.
Chris
Launching!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 213
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From: Burlington ON Canada
Re: PCM lockouts [quote]I don't knock Ed or anyone else from locking out their programmed PCM's to protect their business. What I have a problem with is not being told about it up front. <hr></blockquote>
Good point, but on the flip side, did you ask if you had the ability to read/tune on top of their tune? If you wanted/required that ability, you should've asked upfront.
Good point, but on the flip side, did you ask if you had the ability to read/tune on top of their tune? If you wanted/required that ability, you should've asked upfront.
Moderator
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,048
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From: Raleigh, NC
Re: PCM lockouts [quote]Originally posted by Bugblndr:
<strong>
Good point, but on the flip side, did you ask if you had the ability to read/tune on top of their tune? If you wanted/required that ability, you should've asked upfront.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I disagree with that.
If they take some ability away from you for you to gain something and you are willing to pay for that, then so be it.
But they SHOULD tell you.
It might not occur to everyone that they are giving up such a thing.
<strong>
Good point, but on the flip side, did you ask if you had the ability to read/tune on top of their tune? If you wanted/required that ability, you should've asked upfront.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I disagree with that.
If they take some ability away from you for you to gain something and you are willing to pay for that, then so be it.
But they SHOULD tell you.
It might not occur to everyone that they are giving up such a thing.
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
From: Wyandotte, MI
Re: PCM lockouts Is there any list of what companies are locking out thier tuning? I currently have superchips tuning for my pdyne and would hate to have to start from scratch when i get ls1edit. Also since they were initially contracted from pdyne to program for thier systems, would pdyne have a say in whether it should be locked or not? Ill call superchips and pdyne tomorrow if to see what i can find out.
Launching!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 299
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From: Savannah, TN
Re: PCM lockouts [quote]Originally posted by Bugblndr:
<strong>
Good point, but on the flip side, did you ask if you had the ability to read/tune on top of their tune? If you wanted/required that ability, you should've asked upfront.</strong><hr></blockquote>
A reasonable person wouldn't expect his PCM to be locked after tuning.
The fact that it comes as such a suprise is what really has so many people pissed off here. I'd be willing to bet that if people were told up front about the lock and why it's there, they'd be more accepting of it.
But, not telling people makes them feel like somethings been pulled on them.. like they've been tricked. Having to ask the tuner ~in advance~ not to lock his PCM is like asking him not to write his name on the hood with red paint. You just don't expect that to happen.
<strong>
Good point, but on the flip side, did you ask if you had the ability to read/tune on top of their tune? If you wanted/required that ability, you should've asked upfront.</strong><hr></blockquote>
A reasonable person wouldn't expect his PCM to be locked after tuning.
The fact that it comes as such a suprise is what really has so many people pissed off here. I'd be willing to bet that if people were told up front about the lock and why it's there, they'd be more accepting of it.
But, not telling people makes them feel like somethings been pulled on them.. like they've been tricked. Having to ask the tuner ~in advance~ not to lock his PCM is like asking him not to write his name on the hood with red paint. You just don't expect that to happen.
Re: PCM lockouts My .02 on this is.The people doing the tuning
have or should have every right to stop
unauthorized copying of there programs.
It protects thier income and reputation.The
reputation part is like this:A gets his PCM
tuned B copys this custom tuning with close
mods, car runs like sh*t. Guess who gets blamed?
The tuner because someone took a program
designed for one engine and tried to use it
for another.So obviously the tuner is merely
trying to protect himself on two fronts.
Bashing is very hard to defend, takesto much time!
have or should have every right to stop
unauthorized copying of there programs.
It protects thier income and reputation.The
reputation part is like this:A gets his PCM
tuned B copys this custom tuning with close
mods, car runs like sh*t. Guess who gets blamed?
The tuner because someone took a program
designed for one engine and tried to use it
for another.So obviously the tuner is merely
trying to protect himself on two fronts.
Bashing is very hard to defend, takesto much time!
Teching In
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Re: PCM lockouts One good thing about this thread is that now we all know that Ed is locking the PCM. Knowing this, there's no way I would have him program mine. Its too bad because I have heard he does great work.
IMO locking the PCM is hurting his business... not helping it.
I also feel that he should unlock all the ones he has locked. The main reason is that locking the PCM was not part of the tuning the customer asked for (or expected). Therefore the customer should not have received it. However, I don't think suing him is the way to go as it will likely cost more to sue than to have it re-flashed.
btw, if I'm not mistaken if enough people complain to the attory general of the state he's located in, the attorney general may look into the matter. Although I think it has to be a sizeable number of complaints or of a very serious nature.
IMO locking the PCM is hurting his business... not helping it.
I also feel that he should unlock all the ones he has locked. The main reason is that locking the PCM was not part of the tuning the customer asked for (or expected). Therefore the customer should not have received it. However, I don't think suing him is the way to go as it will likely cost more to sue than to have it re-flashed.
btw, if I'm not mistaken if enough people complain to the attory general of the state he's located in, the attorney general may look into the matter. Although I think it has to be a sizeable number of complaints or of a very serious nature.
TECH Regular
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 414
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From: Orlando, FL
Re: PCM lockouts You guys don't have the first clue as to what you are talking about when you say "locking" do you?! I haven't seen one post on here describing what Ed ACTUALLY does. 1) He is protecting his business. 2) You aren't locked out of anything with Ed's programming. 3) Go lobby the makers of LS1 Edit to adapt their software to Ed's programming. It isn't rocket science! 4) I don't understand why you think Ed is bound to retain functionality with a competitor's package.
You can always REFLASH at the dealer! I'd like to know if any of you whiners can actually tell me what Ed does that prevents LS1 edit from working?! Well???
Tim
You can always REFLASH at the dealer! I'd like to know if any of you whiners can actually tell me what Ed does that prevents LS1 edit from working?! Well???
Tim