Joe99SS

Has anyone been able to pinpoint approx. when Ed Wright started locking down PCM's? Just curious if anyone has actually taken a survey of who's PCM was locked and when it was tuned versus who's wasn't locked and when theirs was tuned... Thanks!

Team ZR-1

What I have been told s when it was clear a programmer would come out for the car owner to do his own tuning for a far better price and a better overall tune to his car, the few tuners out there got together and made a pack to use the OBD-II security protcol to lock us out.

My gut feeling is locking started with some tuners when they felt they did a true custom tune early last year and then locked all flashes they did somewhere around last summer when it became public LD1-Edit was being shipped for the unlimited version.

I know of two people who were locked out with that P.L flash and they both got their's last fall.

Joe99SS

Mine was last fall as well... So I guess I have to start over from scratch or pay another $200 just to change the rear gear ratio or shift points? That's stupid... <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

really slow truck

man, that is kindof dumb. understandable where they are comming from, so that you cant see what they do (or dont do <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> ) to give the extra performance, but considering you still own the car and the pcm (and paid alot for the tuning might i add), blocking you from using/seeing something you own is just dumb

damn i hope nobody else catches on to this idea, next thing you know the cd stores will be selling cd's with padlocks on the cases just so you dont even think about copying it <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> (not that i buy cds anyways haha)

[ February 28, 2002: Message edited by: really slow truck ]</p>

ChrisB

The flip side is when LT1 Edit came in the unlimited version there were quite a few tuners who were selling an Ed Wright tune as their own - it was an Ed Wright hotcam tune that had been floating around on the internet for awhile, and magically became their custom tune - without any changes even.

I personally wouldn't pay for a tune that couldn't be edited, but then someone who had no intention of ever attempting custom tuning might not care.

As long as the person purchasing the pcm is aware of the limitation I don't think there is any problem with it - but the limitation does need to be made clear.

Also Ken recently pointed out that you can not simply upload someone else's file because of the way the software programs (only updates data tables). This seems to me like it will somewhat limit the amount of bootlegging that goes on.

I know Ed Wright recently announced that shift points, etc. were modifiable (with the hypertech, though I assume they would work with LS1 Edit also - not sure though?) - market forces will probably dictate in the end how that goes.

As for the tuners themselves, Ed Wright has been on the LT1 Edit mailing list for quite awhile and has freely shared lots of good information, tips, and tricks. If you are looking for a base tune to start with, or a custom program that you can learn from I would at least give him a call and discuss it - let him know what you want to do.

On the other hand, if you are willing to invest the time and effort to learn and understand your car's computer, and how the changes you make to it affect the enging and are effected by it then you will generally come out with a better tune than you can get in most other places. It's just a matter of the time and effort you put into it. But it *will* take some learning, experimenting, and thinking beforehand - as well as a good bit of time.


Chris

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Excellent comments by Chris Bennight.

This works both ways.

really slow truck

yep i agree with everything you said. if I was in the same predicament as ed wright or any other tuner i would proably put a lock on it as well. the only thing would be telling people that they couldnt modify certain things or all of it down the road if they wanted to (I am not implying anybody does or doesnt do this, i honestly have no idea.)

bryan

Joe99SS

I think theproblem here is that no one was ever told about it until it was too late. Maybe they were told, but since the shop doing the work ordered the PCM and sent him the dyno sheets with the a/f the end user never has to sign or is told anything. If I had known about it being locked out, I would've waited a little longer and get LS1_edit as I plan to try a few different combos.

Is it certain that I can use LS1_edit to change my gear ratios and shift points at least? What about getting rid of trouble codes like the rear O2's and stuff like that?

Team ZR-1

They have no right to take G.M's copyrighted flash that is also under EPA rules and take ownership by changing a few values in a table.
They are not writing any PCM code, nor are they replacing G.Ms code and thus have zero purpose to locking the car owner out of his own property.

The people who have come to me claim they were not told in any way fashin that their property would be taken over and that simple G.M updates could not be done due to G.M also being locked out. Add the fact they blew away the stock flash and not not give you a copy of it, left the car owner screwed if they wanted to go back to stock and had no restore function that any software product normally does when you want to take a program off the cpu.

Further more even if you the car owner got a copy, how would you then upload it to your car ?
Very few would have a SPS to even to that.

To me it was not their value changes they were locking out, it was to prevent the car owner switching to a product like LS1-Edit from seeing how little or badly the so called custom tuning was done for those big bucks.

As it was those tuners were making hugh profits from cookie cutting the same flash over many cars of the same model, when they did not own the flash in the first place.

[quote]Originally posted by really slow truck:
<strong>yep i agree with everything you said. if I was in the same predicament as ed wright or any other tuner i would proably put a lock on it as well. the only thing would be telling people that they couldnt modify certain things or all of it down the road if they wanted to (I am not implying anybody does or doesnt do this, i honestly have no idea.)

bryan</strong><hr></blockquote>

[ March 01, 2002: Message edited by: Team ZR-1 ]</p>

Bluestreak

I don't agree with the lockdown preventative. Because of this new policy on the part of Ed Wright, I will not be using his tuning. For as long as I will own this car (which will be a long time) it will be worth it to learn LS1-Edit. The difference in price is negligible from Wright's (or any other tuner for that matter) cost - around $500 for professional tuning and around $550 (assuming you have a laptop available, which I do) for LS1-Edit? Any seriously motivated LS1 owner will opt for the latter scenario, as will I. I see no choice when the alternative is to be completely forbidden from the car's computer. And by the time I have LS1-Edit later this summer, there will likely be a thriving online community able to help me tame the learning curve as well as provide baseline programs that will likely start me off in the right direction. To go any other way is simply ludicrous...

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

Team ZR-1

Let's not forget that the price of the programmer gives you unlimited PCM calibration flashes.

Heck if you only do 10 flashes over the life of owning the programmer makes it $55 a flash, compared to how much you'd pay for 10 flashes buy some tuner, plus the wait or down time waiting for them to do what you can in just a few minutes.

highgear

If I paid for a Custom Tune and they locked my PCM without my knowledge or permission; my Attorney would be contacting them. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">

iateyourcat

If someone locks down your PCM without your knowledge it might be worth the money to have someone unlock it and then distribute it freely as x tuners tuning. Obviously they wouldn't be able to sue you for distributing their code because they would not have a legal to leg to stand.

They only way they would have a legal claim is if you signed a NDA or license agreement. If that was the case the NDA would detail the fact that they were locking your PCM and that you were not permitted by that agreement to distribute their code.

Any way you look at it, handling the situation up front with the customer will, at least, save you the possiblity of serious customer service issues in the future and, at best, retain the value of your hard work.

I have nothing against making money off your hard work (and coding is hard work and lots of testing) but, when a customer buys a product that has a limitted use he deserves to know it.

I myself plan on buying LS1 edit when it's available for 01 cars. I also plan on making changes to the current program in very small increments and testing those changes. But, if I can't make a backup of my current program, I won't be dealing with current tuner anymore. I'll find someone who is willing to trust me as much as I am willing to trust him.

[ March 02, 2002: Message edited by: iateyourcat ]</p>

Black LS1 T/A

I, too, abhor the thought of someone forbidding access to my own car.

However, with all the moaning <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0"> , no one has yet given a solution to this quandary.

HOW does someone who has expended their money, time and expertise to bring you a product YOU want for your LS1, protect their investment in their efforts/resources?

Come up with a solution to what is not just THEIR problem, but OUR problem as well.

As LS1 owners, don't we WANT products for our cars?

First we complain there are no power adders for LS1's.

Then we complain about paying for them when someone tries to accomodate us.

Then we complain about the vendor protecting himself from losing his shirt by having taken a chance on our market.

OK... what's the solution?

Vettepartz

Looking for a solution?
How about each person going back to the tuner that locked their PCM and getting ANOTHER GM PCM with their stock program and VIN in it. As much profit as the tuners make, they could easily afford to give each person an extra stock PCM.
Just my two cents.

iateyourcat

Is their any way to uniquely identify a program?

Team ZR-1

Seems to be going around in a circle.

Tuners are NOT WRITING CODE, they are changing values in tables that the G.M software uses.

They cannot take ownership of the car owner's PCM nor the G.M software, Tuners do NOT own the software, it is owned by G.M and is copyrighted.

That's like Microsoft saying they own the spreadsheet tables you build with their software.

Downloading their tables is useless, many of us who are using LS1-edit and had tuner code, found we have much better results with our own tuning then the junk they sold us.

They are not making all valid changes, they are brutt force changes and then simply shutting off DTC error codes so PCM and you do not know the errors exist due to values out of range being used.

I suggest many using LS1-Edit are better tuners then the bug buck dudes doing cookie cutter "canned" changes.

Its not what they did in their, it is people new to PCM calibrations not knowing yet what is best values to use, but we are learning fast. Real Fast ..

I looked at two tuners PCM changes and to me both I compared to stock G.M flashes and feel both are junk.

IMHO,
This had nothing to do with protecting their table changes, it was knowing LS1-Edit was getting into our hands and this was a "get even" with the vendor and to attempt to force customers to continue to do business with them and them alone.

Now backtrack who one of the tuners used to work with and it all falls into place who went to other tuners to make it a standard that tuners lock the paid customer out of their own PCM.
<img src="graemlins/gr_barf.gif" border="0" alt="[barf]" />

Black LS1 T/A

What they ARE doing is providing their expertise to tune a person's car.

If you are going to tune it yourself, your statement is sound.

However, this is comparing apples to apples:

If you pay a mechanic to put a blower or headers or build your engine, you pay for that.

If a mechanic uses their expertise to adjust these "tables" on your car to get it to perform, and someone else who could not duplicate that effort were to take it and sell it or even use it, haven't you stolen that person's knowledge?

Software and data represent unique pieces of property that can be easily taken and pirated, leaving the originator of the work with wasted time and mis-spent money.

I ask again, what is the solution?

Saying these mechanics, who have helped many vehicle owners get more performance out of their car, should have no compensation for the work they do is NOT a solution.

If you know some inside story we don't concerning unfair practices in this 'programming' industry, then spit it out and stop beating around the bush. <img src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

Lay it out on the table and let us weigh the merits of it. <img src="gr_stretch.gif" border="0">

LS1dude

Class action lawsuit

All i can say is it may become
a reality very soon.

Some person who locks my toys up with out me knowing and without my permission then has the ***** to want money to unlock it and then only option is to go back to stock , must want to start making my car payments as well.....

Black LS1 T/A

"Downloading their tables is useless, many of us who are using LS1-edit and had tuner code, found we have much better results with our own tuning then the junk they sold us."

Maybe that was true for YOUR tuner, but nothing could be further from the truth for the one who did mine.

Matter of fact, my car would hardly run with the stock tune. Blower, injector change, more fuel. After their 'table changes', however, I pulled a 10.98 @ 126 MPH with a blown engine, but stock internals.

Sure, now with LS1-Edit, I can improve on that. I can flash away until I get it right on the dyno or at the track... or cruising on the street.

But, they did SOMETHING right to be able to mail me a micro-tuner from 3 or 4 states away and put me in the 10's. <img src="gr_grin.gif" border="0">