Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance.
08-21-2002, 05:25 PM
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Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. DOH!!! Again.
Spent 1.5hrs on the rollers just now.
Was going to test 22/24/26/28/30 of total advance. Stock is 22. I stopped testing at 26, because I was not seeing gains, but I was getting more KR. Funny thing is, it got no KR at the dragstrip.
Running 95 octane (50/50 premium and 100 unleaded 76), the best power was made at 22/24 degrees, then at 26, power was down very slightly but not a significant change in output at any of the 3 settings.
I'm going to stick at the factory spark, and start adjusting the fuel.
Why would an LS1 like more timing than a higher compression LS6 does????
Spent 1.5hrs on the rollers just now.
Was going to test 22/24/26/28/30 of total advance. Stock is 22. I stopped testing at 26, because I was not seeing gains, but I was getting more KR. Funny thing is, it got no KR at the dragstrip.
Running 95 octane (50/50 premium and 100 unleaded 76), the best power was made at 22/24 degrees, then at 26, power was down very slightly but not a significant change in output at any of the 3 settings.
I'm going to stick at the factory spark, and start adjusting the fuel.
Why would an LS1 like more timing than a higher compression LS6 does????
08-21-2002, 05:33 PM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. Interesting!! What were your #'s? Did you dyno with A/F and what were those #'s?
I have Edit on the way for my 2002 Z06 and have been following your progress closely (hopefully I can learn something).
I have Edit on the way for my 2002 Z06 and have been following your progress closely (hopefully I can learn something).
08-21-2002, 05:35 PM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. The higher the compression...the less timing you can add before you get knocking. You'll have to adjust all the other crap(fuel/air ratio....etc)to be able to get more advance. More advance is really only good for more torque(to an extent) and less timing on the top end(to an extent)will give you more HP. This is how it was on old cars and if i'm not mistaken is true for the new stufff too. Let me know if i'm wrong on this though. Good luck.
08-21-2002, 05:37 PM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. No wideband, nor did I adjust the fuel. I AutoTapped most of the pulls (12?) and will put everything together tonight.
But I wasn't impressed with adding timing to this engine. Less than 22 makes a difference, but more than 22 doesn't do much if anything except make it more prone to knock.
But I wasn't impressed with adding timing to this engine. Less than 22 makes a difference, but more than 22 doesn't do much if anything except make it more prone to knock.
08-21-2002, 05:55 PM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by McRat:
<strong>DOH!!! Again.
Spent 1.5hrs on the rollers just now.
Was going to test 22/24/26/28/30 of total advance. Stock is 22. I stopped testing at 26, because I was not seeing gains, but I was getting more KR. Funny thing is, it got no KR at the dragstrip.
Running 95 octane (50/50 premium and 100 unleaded 76), the best power was made at 22/24 degrees, then at 26, power was down very slightly but not a significant change in output at any of the 3 settings.
I'm going to stick at the factory spark, and start adjusting the fuel.
Why would an LS1 like more timing than a higher compression LS6 does????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If that is the case (that 22 and 24 makes the same amount of power), which one would be better? 22 or 24? I'm speaking in terms of controlling exhaust temperatures and the like.
<strong>DOH!!! Again.
Spent 1.5hrs on the rollers just now.
Was going to test 22/24/26/28/30 of total advance. Stock is 22. I stopped testing at 26, because I was not seeing gains, but I was getting more KR. Funny thing is, it got no KR at the dragstrip.
Running 95 octane (50/50 premium and 100 unleaded 76), the best power was made at 22/24 degrees, then at 26, power was down very slightly but not a significant change in output at any of the 3 settings.
I'm going to stick at the factory spark, and start adjusting the fuel.
Why would an LS1 like more timing than a higher compression LS6 does????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">If that is the case (that 22 and 24 makes the same amount of power), which one would be better? 22 or 24? I'm speaking in terms of controlling exhaust temperatures and the like.
08-21-2002, 06:02 PM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Reboot:
<strong>Interesting!! What were your #'s? Did you dyno with A/F and what were those #'s?
I have Edit on the way for my 2002 Z06 and have been following your progress closely (hopefully I can learn something).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">369rwhp/359tq, but don't follow me too close, as I am going to hit a dead end or two! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
I really need some more track testing without wind being a factor, and change timing at the track between 22 and 26 and see what happens. Dyno's are just a tuning tool, and can't replace a racetrack.
<strong>Interesting!! What were your #'s? Did you dyno with A/F and what were those #'s?
I have Edit on the way for my 2002 Z06 and have been following your progress closely (hopefully I can learn something).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">369rwhp/359tq, but don't follow me too close, as I am going to hit a dead end or two! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
I really need some more track testing without wind being a factor, and change timing at the track between 22 and 26 and see what happens. Dyno's are just a tuning tool, and can't replace a racetrack.
08-21-2002, 06:05 PM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. Good info! This is exactly why it's impossible to say "set your timing to this", etc.
The LS6 head is more effecient (better charge quality, etc.) than the LS1 head - you probably end up with a slightly quicker flame propigation - especially when combined with the increased compression.
Timing isn't something that's always better - there is basically a certain amount your car "wants" - if you can achieve that on your octane gas then perfect - running 500 octane and adding in 5 more degrees will only hurt.
How much timing you need depends on what kind of flame propigation you get on the combustion event - if you graphed cylinder pressure vs. crankshaft degrees you could get a good idea of what is going on - when the spark first ignites there is very little cylinder pressure - as the burn continues it increases. You start the spark before TDC (what advance is) so you maximize the amount of pressure you see on the power stroke. Too much timing and you start getting enough pressure on the top of the compression stroke that you have to work against it, or you run out of pressure before the power stroke is done.
I would always go with the lowest timing level that makes good power.
You will see more gains from altering the a/f ratio (probably). But on a stock car the GM tune is pretty damn good - most of the "tuning" on a stock car is bringing back into spec things we have changed (injector, MAF with respect to air intake path, etc.)
Chris
The LS6 head is more effecient (better charge quality, etc.) than the LS1 head - you probably end up with a slightly quicker flame propigation - especially when combined with the increased compression.
Timing isn't something that's always better - there is basically a certain amount your car "wants" - if you can achieve that on your octane gas then perfect - running 500 octane and adding in 5 more degrees will only hurt.
How much timing you need depends on what kind of flame propigation you get on the combustion event - if you graphed cylinder pressure vs. crankshaft degrees you could get a good idea of what is going on - when the spark first ignites there is very little cylinder pressure - as the burn continues it increases. You start the spark before TDC (what advance is) so you maximize the amount of pressure you see on the power stroke. Too much timing and you start getting enough pressure on the top of the compression stroke that you have to work against it, or you run out of pressure before the power stroke is done.
I would always go with the lowest timing level that makes good power.
You will see more gains from altering the a/f ratio (probably). But on a stock car the GM tune is pretty damn good - most of the "tuning" on a stock car is bringing back into spec things we have changed (injector, MAF with respect to air intake path, etc.)
Chris
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08-21-2002, 06:15 PM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ChrisB:
<strong>... But on a stock car the GM tune is pretty damn good ...
Chris</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm a slow learner! This is the same thing I found with my stock 2000 Camaro, that little if anything was gained advancing the timing.
The engine "sounds" meaner, but nothing shows on a dyno.
But I couldn't believe that 22 deg was enough WOT timing!!! I KNEW GM HAD MADE A MISTAKE, and I was going to outsmart their entire engineering dept!!
Oh well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
<strong>... But on a stock car the GM tune is pretty damn good ...
Chris</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm a slow learner! This is the same thing I found with my stock 2000 Camaro, that little if anything was gained advancing the timing.
The engine "sounds" meaner, but nothing shows on a dyno.
But I couldn't believe that 22 deg was enough WOT timing!!! I KNEW GM HAD MADE A MISTAKE, and I was going to outsmart their entire engineering dept!!
Oh well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />
08-21-2002, 10:41 PM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by McRat:
<strong>DOH!!! Again.
Running 95 octane (50/50 premium and 100 unleaded 76), the best power was made at 22/24 degrees, then at 26, power was down very slightly but not a significant change in output at any of the 3 settings.
I'm going to stick at the factory spark, and start adjusting the fuel.
Why would an LS1 like more timing than a higher compression LS6 does????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IMHO, that just means the tune was not correct for the higher timing.
Here is a 01 ZO6 I tuned, before and after results
<img src="http://teamzr1.com/pcmecm/bobn.gif" alt=" - " />
The car pulled more power at 26 degress then it did at 23 and that was with a higher redline but was custom tuned to make sure it functioned well across all fuel trim cells and RPM range.
Only changes were larger injectors, Blackwing and PCM tuning.
My engine has 11.3:1 compression and pulls 27.5 degrees at WOT with zero knock or misfire and that is with Ca 91 octane smog gas.
<strong>DOH!!! Again.
Running 95 octane (50/50 premium and 100 unleaded 76), the best power was made at 22/24 degrees, then at 26, power was down very slightly but not a significant change in output at any of the 3 settings.
I'm going to stick at the factory spark, and start adjusting the fuel.
Why would an LS1 like more timing than a higher compression LS6 does????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">IMHO, that just means the tune was not correct for the higher timing.
Here is a 01 ZO6 I tuned, before and after results
<img src="http://teamzr1.com/pcmecm/bobn.gif" alt=" - " />
The car pulled more power at 26 degress then it did at 23 and that was with a higher redline but was custom tuned to make sure it functioned well across all fuel trim cells and RPM range.
Only changes were larger injectors, Blackwing and PCM tuning.
My engine has 11.3:1 compression and pulls 27.5 degrees at WOT with zero knock or misfire and that is with Ca 91 octane smog gas.
08-22-2002, 12:40 AM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by McRat:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ChrisB:
<strong>... But on a stock car the GM tune is pretty damn good ...
Chris</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But I couldn't believe that 22 deg was enough WOT timing!!! I KNEW GM HAD MADE A MISTAKE, and I was going to outsmart their entire engineering dept!!
Oh well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hahaha, I do the same thing! I'm gonna find something they didn't optimize dammit! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> All in all, very good info. Do you have some kind of hook up that gets a deal on dynoing? I'd love to just play around with edit for a few hours one day w/o paying an arm and a leg.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by ChrisB:
<strong>... But on a stock car the GM tune is pretty damn good ...
Chris</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">But I couldn't believe that 22 deg was enough WOT timing!!! I KNEW GM HAD MADE A MISTAKE, and I was going to outsmart their entire engineering dept!!
Oh well... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hahaha, I do the same thing! I'm gonna find something they didn't optimize dammit! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> All in all, very good info. Do you have some kind of hook up that gets a deal on dynoing? I'd love to just play around with edit for a few hours one day w/o paying an arm and a leg.
08-22-2002, 12:56 AM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. Changing the fuel will probably effect what kind of spark advance you can run/need to run - or at least it may. That said every car is not the same, and I would tend to trust dyno numbers over calculated autotap values.
In the end what matters is what works for the individual.
Chris
In the end what matters is what works for the individual.
Chris
08-22-2002, 01:04 AM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. it would be very useful for you to get a hold of an a/f ratio.. if that was way off base either way you wouldnt be able to run as much timing as you could.
i ran 30* no knock on 10.3 compression so i know you can do better than 24.
checked the plugs? what heat range etc?
i ran 30* no knock on 10.3 compression so i know you can do better than 24.
checked the plugs? what heat range etc?
08-22-2002, 10:40 AM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. OK, I poured over my collected data last night.
All three settings got up to 1.2 deg KR. (????)
All three best curves (smoothest) are identical within +/- 1hp and 1tq at peaks. Area under the curves favored the 24 by just a hair.
Water temps the same within 2
IAT same within 1
Interesting to note that KR effected all three a little. No KR on the dragstrip at 26.
All I gained from this test is that stock timing is not an area for great improvement on a stock 2002 LS6 engine.
All three settings got up to 1.2 deg KR. (????)
All three best curves (smoothest) are identical within +/- 1hp and 1tq at peaks. Area under the curves favored the 24 by just a hair.
Water temps the same within 2
IAT same within 1
Interesting to note that KR effected all three a little. No KR on the dragstrip at 26.
All I gained from this test is that stock timing is not an area for great improvement on a stock 2002 LS6 engine.
08-22-2002, 11:45 AM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MIGHTYMOUSE:
<strong>it would be very useful for you to get a hold of an a/f ratio.. if that was way off base either way you wouldnt be able to run as much timing as you could.
i ran 30* no knock on 10.3 compression so i know you can do better than 24.
checked the plugs? what heat range etc?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When I start screwing up, err... adjusting, my mixture, I will go to a wide band facility. However, they probably aren't going to let me do more than 3 pulls, so I have to be close before I start.
<strong>it would be very useful for you to get a hold of an a/f ratio.. if that was way off base either way you wouldnt be able to run as much timing as you could.
i ran 30* no knock on 10.3 compression so i know you can do better than 24.
checked the plugs? what heat range etc?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">When I start screwing up, err... adjusting, my mixture, I will go to a wide band facility. However, they probably aren't going to let me do more than 3 pulls, so I have to be close before I start.
08-22-2002, 11:47 AM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. 
08-23-2002, 09:46 AM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. you did monitor your 02's
i see in some spots as high as .94! thats where you are loosing the power, move them down to .89 (gain power) or so and you will be able to move the timing up(gain more power)
this is what i am thinking.
i see in some spots as high as .94! thats where you are loosing the power, move them down to .89 (gain power) or so and you will be able to move the timing up(gain more power)
this is what i am thinking.
08-23-2002, 11:02 AM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. 1) Stock O2 readings DO NOT EQUAL real A/F @ WOT
2) You CAN NOT use PCM "calculated" Torque/RWHP as a comparison ESPECIALLY if you tune the MAF or it's NOT STOCK!
McRat - As ChrisB stated above, you'll probably find different results with playing with fuel/timing on a WB.
TeamZR1 - Are all those power numbers in your spreadsheet dyno generated or are those EASE #'s?
<small>[ August 23, 2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: John@PACE ]</small>
2) You CAN NOT use PCM "calculated" Torque/RWHP as a comparison ESPECIALLY if you tune the MAF or it's NOT STOCK!
McRat - As ChrisB stated above, you'll probably find different results with playing with fuel/timing on a WB.
TeamZR1 - Are all those power numbers in your spreadsheet dyno generated or are those EASE #'s?
<small>[ August 23, 2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: John@PACE ]</small>
08-23-2002, 11:28 AM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. Hey John,
If we use one of your Calibrated LS6 mafs and leave the maf curve alone, will would it be an ok "indicator" as we try different things?
Mark
If we use one of your Calibrated LS6 mafs and leave the maf curve alone, will would it be an ok "indicator" as we try different things?
Mark
08-23-2002, 11:53 AM
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Re: Surprising Dyno Session Today. LS6's like 22 deg Total Advance. Mark. In short. NO. Something as simple as a different lid change before the MAF will change airflow. Rotating the MAF, changing track angles, etc all have an effect. Take your lid off and put a cone filter on the end of the MAF. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> The only way I would even consider it semi useful is if you keep the ENTIRE intake track pre/aft MAF 100% STOCK including MAF! The way GM programmed it for. Porting the MAF, MAFT, etc make the PCM Torque reading even less useable.
In short, the track is your best indicator and a real dyno.
In short, the track is your best indicator and a real dyno.